OPENCARRY.ORG why so many people against open carry?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - OPENCARRY.ORG why so many people against open carry? (Page 1 of 5)

Posted: 6/8/2008 5:58:46 PM EDT

Here's an artical about the "open carry movement". Most posts I've read here ar Ar15.com are against open carry. Why not?

www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-opencarry7-2008jun07,0,849912.story?page=1

opencarry.org

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:00:31 PM EDT

[#1]

I'm not against it.

I'm sure if you carry in certain areas where people aren't used to it, but it is still legal, will bring nothing but trouble though.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:01:03 PM EDT

[#2]

I don't think anybody here is against it on principle, but rather in practice.

ie: Don't let the bad guys know what you have.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:01:55 PM EDT

[#3]

the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:03:23 PM EDT

[#4]

The alarmists claim you will die in a hail of gunfire from roving bands of bad guys intent on killing armed civilians exercising their open carry rights.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:04:43 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Like LEO's?

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:06:15 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Like LEO's?

and security guards...

i'm talking about a robbery or similar surprise scenario

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:08:41 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
The alarmists claim you will die in a hail of gunfire from roving bands of bad guys intent on killing armed civilians exercising their open carry rights.

Yep.
OC is fine with me. The more law abiding citizens the better.
Of course the liberal sheeple will crap bricks.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:09:34 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
I don't think anybody here is against it on principle, but rather in practice.

ie: Don't let the bad guys know what you have.

+1 just like carring lots of cash or something.

good to have just don't advertise it.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:11:14 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
I don't think anybody here is against it on principle, but rather in practice.

ie: Don't let the bad guys know what you have.

Are you more or less likely to fuck with someone if you know he has a gun?

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:11:43 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:12:23 PM EDT

[#11]

It brings negative attention to yourself.

I for one am not a whore for attention of any kind.

One of the most prolific open carriers in the washington area is known by face and name by most of the police agencies around him, he shaves his head and has the hitman bar code on the back of his neck. On the open carry forums he goes as agent 47.

People like that, while following the law, give gun owners a bad name, and probably are just being whores for attention and nothing else.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:13:36 PM EDT

[#12]

People are against it because they don't have the balls to do it themselves.

*shrug*

Seems pretty simple to me.

Kevin "

"

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:13:37 PM EDT

[#13]

most people walk around in condition white & wouldn't see it.

conversely, if you are OC you must be in condition yellow /orange

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:13:46 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

Tacoma Mall shooting.

CCL guy, but he drew his gun and told the attacker to drop his gun or something to that effect, was intentionally killed by a man who had only been intentionally wounding people before hand.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:14:36 PM EDT

[#15]

I support anyone's right to open carry, however, I prefer CCW, and here's why:

- Potential bad guys don't know you are armed until YOU choose to reveal that (if they see you open carrying, they can start planning their tactics accordingly before you even realize you are being targeted).

- Don't have to worry about gun haters freaking out and wetting their pants when you CCW, but you do have to deal with their irrational reactions if they see you OC'ing.

- Do not draw undue attention to yourself when you CCW, but stick out like a sore thumb when you OC.

Just a few thoughts to consider.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:15:04 PM EDT

[#16]

yay for swindle

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:15:58 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Like LEO's?

Exactly.

That's why there are no LEO's left. They all got shot because they open carry.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:16:16 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

Tacoma Mall shooting.

CCL guy, but he drew his gun and told the attacker to drop his gun or something to that effect, was intentionally killed by a man who had only been intentionally wounding people before hand.

No, if that's how it went, he hesitated, and that's why he is dead.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:16:29 PM EDT

[#19]

I think it's fine, and in fact necessary if we want to see the option of open carry preserved as a legal right. If the right isn't exercised eventually it will be legislated away. So I view the open carry proponents as essentially doing what the US navy does on occasion, namely going out and exercising some right of navigation in some corner of the globe order to ensure that it remains a custom of the sea. Otherwise some tin-pot nation will declare some piece of ocean to be its territorial waters.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:16:30 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

Tacoma Mall shooting.

CCL guy, but he drew his gun and told the attacker to drop his gun or something to that effect, was intentionally killed by a man who had only been intentionally wounding people before hand.

Doesn't count since he pulled his weapon. I think swindle means an instance by the mere fact that a gun was OC'd where a person was shot (civilian).

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:18:34 PM EDT

[#21]

Well, if you want to carry a shoot me first sign on your back, go ahead.

There are a lot of things that are legal to do. Doesn't mean it is the smart thing to do.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:19:08 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Tacoma Mall shooting.

CCL guy, but he drew his gun and told the attacker to drop his gun or something to that effect, was intentionally killed by a man who had only been intentionally wounding people before hand.

That's not an argument against open carry. That's an argument for, when it's time to shoot, STFU and do it.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:19:19 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

Tacoma Mall shooting.

CCL guy, but he drew his gun and told the attacker to drop his gun or something to that effect, was intentionally killed by a man who had only been intentionally wounding people before hand.

No, if that's how it went, he hesitated, and that's why he is dead.

And you think the badguy who started to shoot everyone up wouldn't have target the guy openly displaying his gun first?

This is a classic situation of why concealed carry is better then open carry, although it was poorly executed.

The badguy shot the person he saw with a gun. Do you think the badguy would have waited for the open carry person to clear leather before engaging?

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:21:06 PM EDT

[#24]

Texas isn't an open carry state...

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:21:13 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Tacoma Mall shooting.

CCL guy, but he drew his gun and told the attacker to drop his gun or something to that effect, was intentionally killed by a man who had only been intentionally wounding people before hand.

That's not an argument against open carry. That's an argument for, when it's time to shoot, STFU and do it.

It is an argument against open carry. Also an argument for when you draw it needs to be so you can shoot instead of act like a police officer.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:23:04 PM EDT

[#26]

I support open carry, but I will not do it because there are stupid people that get stupid cops excited and the cops have enough to do with the bad guys. Why would I want them to waste their time on me.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:23:27 PM EDT

[#27]

Criminals want to get something for free (money from a bank, car, other property) and get away scot free so they can use that free, stolen property. They don't want to get into a gun battle. If they see people standing in a bank carry firearms, they'll move on to the next bank where their likelihood for survival is greater. Criminals would prefer to get that few hundred bucks without getting in a shoot out. Even the rare crazy psychos who want to mass murder people do it in schools and churches where they know people won't be armed. How many people have charged into a gun show to go on a shooting rampage? The bottom line is criminals would prefer to avoid conflict; get in, get out, and get away with their loot. The paranoid fantasies of bad guys taking stock of all the armed people, shooting them, then going about their stick up, is quite a stretch.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:23:34 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

Tacoma Mall shooting.

CCL guy, but he drew his gun and told the attacker to drop his gun or something to that effect, was intentionally killed by a man who had only been intentionally wounding people before hand.

That is not at all what OHC said or what I asked him to post a single instance of.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:23:44 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

Tacoma Mall shooting.

CCL guy, but he drew his gun and told the attacker to drop his gun or something to that effect, was intentionally killed by a man who had only been intentionally wounding people before hand.

You should do a little more research before you post online.

Here's the story...

Mall victim held fire at ‘kid’

M. ALEXANDER OTTO; The News Tribune
Brendan “Dan” McKown said Monday that he briefly drew his gun on Tacoma Mall shooting suspect Dominick S. Maldonado, but he’s not sure Maldonado saw it.

He could have shot Maldonado, McKown said, but hesitated.

From his bed in Tacoma General Hospital, McKown told The News Tribune what he saw and did during the Nov. 20 mall shootings.

McKown, 38, said he carried a gun and even trained for situations where he could keep innocent people from getting hurt.

But the situation in the mall was just too surreal to fully comprehend, he said: A young man wearing a baseball cap turned backward strolling through the mall in white tennis shoes.

It looked like he could just as easily have been carrying a guitar, McKown said, instead of a semi-automatic rifle.

“I’m looking at this guy,” McKown said. “He’s a kid. I would have had to shoot him in the head.”

McKown just wasn’t ready for that. It’s not easy to shoot someone in the head, McKown said. McKown also didn’t want to get in the way of the police if they were handling the situation, and he knew he could get in trouble for brandishing a weapon in the mall.

McKown was struck by as many as five bullets, leaving his left leg paralyzed. He has about 10 percent movement in his right leg, said hospital spokesman Todd Kelley. Five other people wounded that day were treated and released from area hospitals.

During an interview Monday, McKown, a standup comic, was in good spirits. He had people gathered around his bed laughing on several occasions.

There was no self-pity or thirst for vengeance in his comments.

He choked up briefly several times in gratitude for the outpouring of love and support from friends, family, and community. He said it’s beyond his words to express his thanks for the fundraisers and other shows of support.

As for Maldonado, McKown said he hopes whatever prompted his actions will be addressed so that he can become a productive member of society, and that he would be willing to help.

McKown said he was on his way from the Excalibur cutlery store in the mall, where he is an assistant manager, to make a deposit at the other end of the mall.

He dropped into the Kits camera shop to say hello to a friend. He briefly stepped out of the store but circled back in because he wanted to greet someone else. He was walking to the front of the store to leave when “all hell broke loose.”

“I heard extremely powerful rifle shots. Boom! Boom! Boom! Very loud. People were diving for cover, running, screaming,” he said.

McKown knows guns, and knew what he heard was a high-caliber, military-style weapon. He even thought two people could be firing.

He walked to the front of the store to see what was going on, and took a defensive posture, crouched to one side in the store’s entrance. He had his gun out, but tucked it back into his belt, under his clothes, after thinking better of it.

Meanwhile, Maldonado walked past the Kits store.

“We had eye-to-eye contact the whole time,” McKown said. He is unsure if Maldonado saw his weapon.

McKown, standing, said to Maldonado, “I think you need to put that gun down, young man.”

McKown’s hand was back near his gun. Maldonado swung his barrel over and opened fired from the hip.

“Every one of his shots got some part of me,” McKown said.

McKown’s legs locked up with the impact of the first rounds and he started to topple over. McKown said Maldonado followed his body as he fell, firing.

The shooter was “expressionless, that was the strange thing. He was definitely cold,” McKown said.

As he felt the bullets enter his body, “I felt like an idiot,” McKown said. “I carried a gun to protect my fellow man,” but it hadn’t worked out that way.

After the firing ended, McKown said his first response was to crawl after Maldonado “so he didn’t get anyone else because I missed him,” but his friends at Kits stopped him.

McKown believes he was shot as he stood just inside the Kits entrance. He also thinks he was shot five times.

The whole encounter took only seconds, McKown said.

McKown lay on the floor for an hour while police negotiated with the suspect, who was holding several people hostage in a nearby store. He thought he was going to bleed to death.

The wounds felt like someone plunged a “flaming, molten fist” into McKown’s guts.

And he didn’t know if the gunman would be back.

Three people tended to him. His two Kits friends and another friend, a man who had come to the mall to see him and to make a purchase at Excalibur.

Roger McKown, Dan’s father, said the man had helped shield two children from Maldonado as he passed, and then rushed across the corridor into the store to help his son.

The McKown family identified the man as an Iraq war veteran. He told the Kits workers how to deal with McKown’s wounds.

Among other things, they used a teddy bear as a sponge to help stanch the flow of blood.

The veteran told Dan McKown that he had seen people hurt worse in the service, and that he was going to make it.

The veteran could not be reached for comment and his identity could not be confirmed Monday night.

Twenty, 30, 40 minutes passed, and McKown didn’t think he was going to make it. One of his Kits friends kept shouting at him not to fall asleep.

“I’m going to bleed to death here,” McKown remembers thinking. “I knew I was dying.”

After an hour, the Kits workers began to fold down the legs of a table to make a stretcher to carry McKown out of the mall, regardless of the risk.

But then the police arrived.

“I felt safe then,” McKown said.

Police took him to an ambulance.

Dan and his family said they heard from police that even before Maldonado met McKown, a person had already pulled a gun on Maldonado outside of the J.C. Penney store, but didn’t fire out of fear of hitting passers-by.

Roger McKown said Maldonado came to the mall with hundreds of rounds of ammo, aiming to take out as many people as possible, but the resistance he met changed his plans.

Tacoma police spokesman Mark Fulghum said investigators interviewed at least two people who were in the mall during the shooting who were carrying handguns. He didn’t know if either of them pointed a gun at Maldonado, he said.

“I’m not going to dispute it, he was there,” Fulghum said of Roger McKown’s account of another person with a gun. “I just can’t say for sure.”

In short, Mr. McKown, the legally armed citizen, had his gun tucked in his belt, under his clothes when he confronted the shooter, Dominick Maldonado. There is no indication that Maldonado ever saw the pistol, or noticed McKown, before shooting McKown five times, paralyzing him (as opposed to killing him). McKown was not carrying openly. Your example does not fit the situation into which you are trying to apply it.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:23:53 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Texas isn't an open carry state...

Unfortunately.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:24:27 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

Feb 7 , 2008 at the Kirkwood, Missouri City Hall shooting. Two police officers were killed first, as they were uniformed with their weapons visible. Had the officers not been in uniform and had their weapons concealed, things might had a different outcome.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:25:25 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't think anybody here is against it on principle, but rather in practice.

ie: Don't let the bad guys know what you have.

Are you more or less likely to fuck with someone if you know he has a gun?

You ask that as if I was going to pick a fist fight with the guy. The answer in that case is a resounding no. But IF I were a criminal, I would be armed with a gun, and I would remove the one that posed the worst threat to me before anybody else.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:26:47 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't think anybody here is against it on principle, but rather in practice.

ie: Don't let the bad guys know what you have.

Are you more or less likely to fuck with someone if you know he has a gun?

You ask that as if I was going to pick a fist fight with the guy. The answer in that case is a resounding no. But IF I were a criminal, I would be armed with a gun, and I would remove the one that posed the worst threat to me before anybody else.

If I were a criminal I'd get the hell out of Dodge if saw a gun. But that's just me.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:27:31 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Like LEO's?

Exactly.

That's why there are no LEO's left. They all got shot because they open carry.

for fuck's sake people- the discussion is on citizen open carry.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:30:45 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

Feb 7 , 2008 at the Kirkwood, Missouri City Hall shooting. Two police officers were killed first, as they were uniformed with their weapons visible. Had the officers not been in uniform and had their weapons concealed, things might had a different outcome.

It appears this is a case where the gunman was looking to take out city officials/authority figures, which the LE officers were.

Not to say this example doesn't fit, but it is not an example of a random criminal coming in to hold up the joint and shooting because he sees somebody with a weapon.

In such a case where the potential robber saw 2 uniformed LE inside the place he was about to rob, the presence of the uniformed LE may be more of a deterrent to the act than a target.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:33:05 PM EDT

[#36]

Open carry does make a statement.

That statement is one of education. Yes you will have to deal with the dicks and assholes of the world. But freedom is not free. You have to fight for it every single day. Doesn't matter if it's on the streets of Baghdad or the streets of Atlanta. Enemies of freedom want you to hide and bow to their silly demands.

By open carrying you educated the public DAILY that guns are not bad, that guns do belong in the hands of civilians, and that it's LEGAL for non cops to carry.

Standing up for a right will never be easy. Just ask the gay and lesbians of the past 20 years.

Citizens stand up and declare "I have this right!" subjects slink in the corners and hide hoping not to be noticed.

For every liberal pansy I annoy I educated and inspire 2 Citizens.

I'm willing to take the flack to do that. The question is Why aren't you?

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:38:05 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

Tacoma Mall shooting.

CCL guy, but he drew his gun and told the attacker to drop his gun or something to that effect, was intentionally killed by a man who had only been intentionally wounding people before hand.

Huh?

This guy is shooting people, and claims to "know" that the people he is shooting "will only be wounded" and not killed?

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:40:57 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Open carry does make a statement.

That statement is one of education. Yes you will have to deal with the dicks and assholes of the world. But freedom is not free. You have to fight for it every single day. Doesn't matter if it's on the streets of Baghdad or the streets of Atlanta. Enemies of freedom want you to hide and bow to their silly demands.

By open carrying you educated the public DAILY that guns are not bad, that guns do belong in the hands of civilians, and that it's LEGAL for non cops to carry.

Standing up for a right will never be easy. Just ask the gay and lesbians of the past 20 years.

Citizens stand up and declare "I have this right!" subjects slink in the corners and hide hoping not to be noticed.

For every liberal pansy I annoy I educated and inspire 2 Citizens.

I'm willing to take the flack to do that. The question is Why aren't you?

Excellent post! Thats why I (and MANY of my fellow VA OC advocates) do.

Semper Fi.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:43:16 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Texas isn't an open carry state...

Unfortunately.

Bah, only for handguns. Besides with all the good that's been done in the past few years in getting rid of all of that democrat stupidity I'm sure we'll be back to open carry in no time.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:46:52 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

Feb 7 , 2008 at the Kirkwood, Missouri City Hall shooting. Two police officers were killed first, as they were uniformed with their weapons visible. Had the officers not been in uniform and had their weapons concealed, things might had a different outcome.

they were shot for being uniformed cops, having visible guns was secondary.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:47:27 PM EDT

[#41]

I do not want the bad guy to know I'm armed. If he did all he has to do is shoot me in the back then take what he wants. I want him to be surprised that I'nm not a sheeple......

AND TN is a "carry permit", so open carry is OK

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:49:26 PM EDT

[#42]

Well, like I said, I support anyone's right to OC. I have done it myself, when I spent some time in Alaska and used to go hiking (but not in any national parks, mind you, because that was the only place it wasn't allowed). Up there, I never drew a second glance from anyone, because guns were very accepted by almost everyone.

I have an interesting question for the board. Not to hijack the thread, but this gets me thinking about something.

Do you think that fear of terrorism in the wake of 9/11 has strengthened belief in the Second Amendment among "fence sitters" or not? I'm talking about the people who don't seem to care about guns one way or the other, not all of us here obviously.

Just curious.

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:51:58 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't think anybody here is against it on principle, but rather in practice.

ie: Don't let the bad guys know what you have.

Are you more or less likely to fuck with someone if you know he has a gun?

No shit.

Quoted:

Quoted:
the people with visible weapons get shot first.

Name a single instance where this has happened.

+1

Posted: 6/8/2008 6:54:58 PM EDT

[#44]

If a BG is hell bent on killing people he isn't going to go to a mall and start shooting guys with guns on their hips first. Not saying he won't shoot them, but they are the lst people most of those scumbags want to fuck with.

It is why so many of these shootings happen in gun free zones like schools.

Posted: 6/8/2008 7:01:18 PM EDT

[#45]

I choose IWB concealed carry, but do occassional carry open in a Blackhawk OWB holster. I have never had any trouble with people around me while open carrying. I am a bit more situationally aware of where people are in relation to my gun and who is a possible threat when open carrying.

Posted: 6/8/2008 7:04:02 PM EDT

[#46]

I've open carried for years and have only been stopped by LE once and they only wanted to know what model Glock I had. Cops and people are cool around here.

Posted: 6/8/2008 7:10:18 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
It brings negative attention to yourself.

I for one am not a whore for attention of any kind.

One of the most prolific open carriers in the washington area is known by face and name by most of the police agencies around him, he shaves his head and has the hitman bar code on the back of his neck. On the open carry forums he goes as agent 47.

People like that, while following the law, give gun owners a bad name, and probably are just being whores for attention and nothing else.

Does/did he work at Sam's. I think I know that guy.

Posted: 6/8/2008 7:11:25 PM EDT

[#48]

I open carry from time-to-time, but only if I'm reasonably sure there isn't an immediate threat at that moment, and the folks in the area won't flip out about seeing a gun.

For instance, if I'm going from my shop to my bank, which is literally just around the corner, I'll open carry. I'm not going to throw on a jacket for a 2 minute errand. It gets up to 95 degrees or higher around here in the summer. People wearing jackets look more suspect than people wearing guns on their hips. Besides, the people at my bank know I own a gun business (they do have my business accounts). I would think they'd be able to put one and one together, and realize that I'm not a threat.

Sometimes, I'll OC when I'm just stopping to fill up the gas tank, or running into the store for a soda, but only during daytime, and only in areas where I'm familiar, and don't believe that there is much danger.

(For those who say "Well, if you don't think there's much danger, why do you need a gun anyways?", I'd just like to point out that those aren't the only places I'm going to find myselves during my daily travels. I find myself in places where there are percievably threats, and I want to be armed. I'm not going to disarm just to run into the store for 30 seconds. It'd take longer than that to remove the holster and put the gun somewhere safe.)

Posted: 6/8/2008 7:15:21 PM EDT

[#49]

Free country if you want to open carry you should be able to. That's where I stand.

Posted: 6/8/2008 7:17:55 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Free country if you want to open carry you should be able to. That's where I stand.

/thread.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - OPENCARRY.ORG why so many people against open carry? (Page 1 of 5)

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