Homosexuals impact on society as a whole POLL ADDED - Page 4

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Posted: 2/25/2007 7:47:44 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Somebody - PLEASE tell me how homos have a "positive" effect on society, overall.

They are not going around complaining about "breeders" whose actions cause crime, raise taxes, bankrupt the nation, destroy Social Security and clog the courts with stupid stuff.

Now If you are talking values how about that little slut with the 55 hour marriage. How about the shaved head one. How about Anna Nicole Smith and all of the drama going around her death. How about all of the boozed up, druged up rednecks that "breeders" look to as heros.
Don't you think that your lifstyle shouldn't be forced upon them. Better look at your house before point out errors in anothers house.

One thing I've learned in my 55 years is that those you are always talking about homosexuality and putting them down are closet homosexuals themselves who are trying to hide who they really are.

Posted: 2/25/2007 7:49:44 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Regardless of one's religious beliefs, it would seem that a simple study of human anatomy would clear up what is correct on this issue.

not in a you can have anything you want society.

Posted: 2/25/2007 7:53:18 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The issue is nature or nurture. And research has show it to be NURTURE. Yes, homosexuality is not genetic but formative.

How was this determined? Identical twins (genetic copies) that has been seperated at birth show a far greater probablity for liking the same brand of cigarettes than sexual orientation.

Sure, you could say that one was being "closeted". But even today, in the most open society for homosexuals since the fall of Grecian times, the same percentage holds true, about 30% of identical twins seperated at birth show both to be homosexual.

Now explore why...could it be that homosexuality is a result of high population density? Makes sense, nature MUST have a "relief valve", lest populations explode to the point of being ripe target for an epidemic. This might explain why there are more gays in big cities. Or why there are few gays on the "open range" (and why a film like Brokeback Mountain would have such a draw...no one would go see a movie of two stage actors falling in love in NYC).

Umm... there are "more" in cities because there are more people in addition to a decidedly less hostile environment. What we would want to look at is rates per 100,000 people. Such stats are very hard to come by. A good estimate has always been 1 in 10, and it is very difficult to get accurate rates in rural areas.

Based on my research, nurture plays a huge role in the manifestation of homosexual tendencies. Your average mouth-breather will tell you that what is learned can be unlearned. That, however, is not the case. Developments during childhood and early adulthood can be masked but not undone.

I do believe, however, that nature does play some sort of role. I would argue that some folks are predisposed towards a certain place on the gay-straight spectrum. The theory that I researched and wrote about for a long time allows for a wide variety of positions on the aforementioned spectrum, but does not allow for any kind of absolutism in terms of actual homosexuality and heterosexuality. Everyone, so the theory reads, is just a wee little bit gay.

Anyway, I would be interested in seeing rates of admitted homosexual tendencies broken down by region. If anyone has this info, feel free to share. I have not found such a thing, in reliable format, in any major academic publications or databases.

- BG

So...you would have to show a migration of the genetically predispositioned homosexuals to the large cities. Not happening. The large cities are making homosexuals. Inadvertantly.

Why we have seen homosexuality rise is due to the decline in the percentage of the population involved in animal husbandry. Yes, the city dweller might see a bitch mounted by a sire (canines, of course) but they do not see the whelping of the pups. They might see birds copulating but they do not see the brood hatching or taking flight.

Actions have consequences. Modern life has tended to reduce this cause and effect relationship, perverting reality and giving perversions the air of reality.

I fear the idiots here will relegate this thread to the trash heap. Mods, please delete the CoC violating posts. This thread is quite informative once the drek is purged.

I did not project my view appropriately it seems.

I was arguing that the rates of homosexuality will be roughly equal between rural and urban settings. The problem is that we can't get accurate rates, particularly in rural areas. Therefore, I can't prove anything.

I would argue that the "increase" in homosexuals in cities is only an increase in admitted homosexuality. You have more of them coming out of the closet, simply put.

It would be much easier to come out of the closet in NYC as opposed to rural Missouri, for example.

Let's just say that the gay 10% (or whatever % you want) is evenly distributed. In NYC, however, 10% is a lot of people compared to a town of 1000. And if only 10% of the gay 10% comes out of the closet (that would be 1% of the overall population) in rural-ville and 50% of the 10% (5% of the total population) comes out in NYC, what you have appears to be a relative "shitload" of gays, technically speaking.

Arguing that the rates are equal is difficult to do. Showing that in sheer amounts, cities have more gays is obvious. Being more gay-friendly, it is no surprise that more of them, as a percentage rate, come out of the closet.

So, I'm not too keen on the "making homosexuals" idea. Being more welcome to them and, subsequently, having a bunch more come out of the closet seems very reasonable.

- BG

Ahh, there is the rub. A positive-feedback loop. Only leads to an uncontrolled solution. And we do not want the human race to end?

Ahh, but if the 10% is a stable number, the uncontrolled solution would merely be that all 10% come out of the closet. You don't have the end of the human race. You will merely have an increase in enrollment at interior decorating school.

As much as I believe in the fluidity of the aforementioned sexuality spectrum, I don't believe that "too many" would swing to the homosexual side unless the genders were literally segregated for extended periods (a la prison).

- BG

Posted: 2/25/2007 7:56:45 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Regardless of one's religious beliefs, it would seem that a simple study of human anatomy would clear up what is correct on this issue.

not in a you can have anything you want society.

You both have equally sarcastic yet appropriate opinions.

There is no doubting the "purpose" of certain aspects of human anatomy. Likewise, however, we are at a stage in society in which the choice to make unorthodox use of your unit is fairly legitimate. We don't really need you to reproduce right now so, in terms of sexuality, we really are in a "you can have anything you want" society.

- BG

Posted: 2/25/2007 7:58:00 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It just ain't natural !!!!!!!!!!

Shaving is not natural. Driving a car is not natural. Having a job is not natural.

But homosexuality occurs in other species besides humans, so how could it not be natural? It's a minority trait to be sure, but it is among the range of natural behaviors just as having green eyes or type B blood or being left-handed is natural.

2 male ends just don't go together, it's a simple concept really. It isn't some trait either, mostly it's an in thing to do and a way for people to run from the natural troubles of male female relationships. Example I can't get a woman to save my butt, that's a simple fact, I'm not good lookin, talk funny, ect., just not a hip guy, but I could go out and get a boyfriend in a week.
But then why would I, the thought of it disgusts me beyond words. But society lacks standards more and more.

Posted: 2/25/2007 8:00:01 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I suppose any choice of lifestyle is justifiable by those with flexible moral values.

Sadly, the difference between right and wrong has become subjective to those same people.

What makes you think that "right" and 'wrong" have had the same definition without change through all time?

Because a core value of what's right and wrong don't really change, people know in their hearts what's really right and wrong, only the tolerance and acceptance of those things changes in societies back and forth it seems.

Posted: 2/25/2007 8:03:41 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I suppose any choice of lifestyle is justifiable by those with flexible moral values.

Sadly, the difference between right and wrong has become subjective to those same people.

What makes you think that "right" and 'wrong" have had the same definition without change through all time?

Truth is impervious to change.

Your post ignores the reality that views of what is "right" and "wrong" are constantly changing.

actually they don't change at all, people just adapt to justifying doing what they know is wrong or that they shouldn't do. They're in denial.

Posted: 2/25/2007 8:10:25 PM EDT

[#8]

On a whole gay people dont have any impact on society.

Gays, just like every other group, have a fringe, and the fringe get all the press and magazine covers which makes the gay movement seem larger than it really is.

Generally speaking, gay people are just like straight people in the sense that they dont want to discriminated against and denied a chance to live life and be treated fairly.

There is nothing wrong with that

Most gay people are completely against the tactics of the GLAAD mafia, but the moderates are never as exciting as the whackos.

Posted: 2/25/2007 8:29:39 PM EDT

[#9]

While being gay may not be genetic, it certainly is not a choice. Who would choose to be discriminated against their entire life?

I suppose if it were to be determined that it could be identified before birth. some women would abort the fetus.

I expect that homophobes are genetically determined as well and that women would have the opportunity to abort homophobic fetuses as well.

As far as having a negative impact on society, that's way overstated.

Aids, while a problem, is tiny compared to tobacco use, alcholism, etc. Before you worry about the gays destroying family life, maybe you better figure out why 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce.

I suspect that all throughout history homophobes have searched for justification for their fear of gays.

Posted: 2/25/2007 8:41:53 PM EDT

[#10]

People shouldnt tell me what guns I should buy. I shouldnt tell them who to fuck. I personally liked the viewpoint that somebody brought up- that marriage is a religious thing and the government should back out of the whole deal. People want to get "married," go to a church. If they want to be legally recognized as a family, or couple, or whatever the hell you want to call it, go to a courthouse.

Quoted:
I could go out and get a boyfriend in a week.

How would you know? Been "testing the waters?"

Posted: 2/25/2007 8:53:32 PM EDT

[#11]

The only major issue I have with gays is their constant attack on Christianity and Christians.

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:06:52 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Regardless of one's religious beliefs, it would seem that a simple study of human anatomy would clear up what is correct on this issue.

You can have anal sex with women too, and plenty of people enjoy that.

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:18:03 PM EDT

[#13]

Homophobia would be a fear of gays.

A moral objection and total disgust that they even exist is hardly an inrrational fear.

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:19:15 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
The only major issue I have with gays is their constant attack on Christianity and Christians.

Certain vocal gays have led some serious attacks on the established Christian church because of the "constant attack" that the established church makes on them.

Lots of liberals make constant attacks on gun owners... and we respond by verbally attacking them back. Your argument against gays is like a Democrat whining because gun owners don't like them. Well, duh, the Dems started the whole fight to begin with.

- BG

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:21:05 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Homophobia would be a fear of gays.

A moral objection and total disgust that they even exist is hardly an inrrational fear.

I don't think anyone has been accused of being a homophobe in this thread.

I think the "I don't want a gay near me/gays will end civilization" types are probably bordering on homophobia, but I think the term is applied too liberally.

- BG

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:26:15 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

...It isn't some trait either, mostly it's an in thing to do and a way for people to run from the natural troubles of male female relationships....

...the thought of it disgusts me beyond words. But society lacks standards more and more.

I have sex with women because I am attracted to them. I don't care how trouble-free a relationship with a man might be, and if societal standards change to the point where there is no negative stigma in being homosexual, even to the point of gayness being seen as a superior condition, I am quite sure I'd still be straight.

An "in" thing to do??? I could not possibly change my mind and choose to be homosexual. How could someone choose to consistently, repeatedly have sex with a type of person to which they feel no attraction?

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:26:47 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
1. HIV is statisticly staggering in gays compared to hetrosexuals
2. Pedophiles and serial killers are statisticly way over reperesented by homosexuals
3. Homosexuals do not procreate

Gays are completely over blown. No bun attended. Sure - they provide a mean broadway chorus, and they design nice dresses. But more-or-less their impact on society is minimal.

Your negatives are pretty moot...

1. A higher percentage of gays have HIV - but since their original numbers are small to begin with its impact on society isnt that great. Furthermore they spread it within their ranks - not to the rest of society.

2. That I have no idea if its true or not. But those people are severely fucked up, usually with abusive pasts. So its no wonder they have sexual confusion as well. And considering one in four women suffer abuse - I doubt the majority of pedophiles are gay.

3. Good.

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:30:02 PM EDT

[#18]

If Homos don't mess with my rifle, I don't give a rip what they do with their "gun".

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:34:55 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Homophobia would be a fear of gays.

A moral objection and total disgust that they even exist is hardly an inrrational fear.

It's still irrational to hate something that doesn't hurt you.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:35:24 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
While being gay may not be genetic, it certainly is not a choice. Who would choose to be discriminated against their entire life?

A sociopath.

This question is silly, people do shit that is harmful to themselves all the time. You might as well ask, "Why would hundreds of millions of people worldwide consume tobacco products, despite the known negative health effects?"

I suppose if it were to be determined that it could be identified before birth. some women would abort the fetus.

That would create quite the interesting conundrum, wouldn't it?????

I expect that homophobes are genetically determined as well and that women would have the opportunity to abort homophobic fetuses as well.

Again, nature versus nurture. I doubt "homophobes" are born that way, but then again I doubt that homosexuals are born that way either.

I suspect that all throughout history homophobes have searched for justification for their fear of gays.

Frankly, I don't think it was really that big an issue until fairly recently.

I don't care one way or the other.

One could potentially argue that since most homosexuals are politically liberal that has had a negative effect on society. Of course, most women vote liberal too. Hmmm.... What to do, what to do????

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:36:47 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
People shouldnt tell me what guns I should buy. I shouldnt tell them who to fuck. I personally liked the viewpoint that somebody brought up- that marriage is a religious thing and the government should back out of the whole deal. People want to get "married," go to a church. If they want to be legally recognized as a family, or couple, or whatever the hell you want to call it, go to a courthouse.

Quoted:
I could go out and get a boyfriend in a week.

How would you know? Been "testing the waters?"

unfortunately I've had runs ins with gays who don't value their life much around here. The word is that our small city here in southern wv has a huge underground gay thing that's been going on for decades. People even travel here from a few hours away for parties or swhatever.. I kid you not in the late '90s 1 night I had to hitchhike back from northern va and the last guy who picked me maybe 30 miles away was on his way to the "shamrock", a notorious gay bar here and was askin me if I'd ever been or would consider going and so on. And there's been other instances since then.
I could walk into a bar and girls don't look my way or have any interest, but it's different with guys because that exact low "I'd hit it standard" or lack of standards, that you see on arfcom isn't any different with guys who are gay.

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:38:09 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Regardless of one's religious beliefs, it would seem that a simple study of human anatomy would clear up what is correct on this issue.

You can have anal sex with women too, and plenty of people enjoy that.

but you could put the male end of an power cord in any hole, but 2 male ends just don't go.

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:44:40 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

...It isn't some trait either, mostly it's an in thing to do and a way for people to run from the natural troubles of male female relationships....

...the thought of it disgusts me beyond words. But society lacks standards more and more.

I have sex with women because I am attracted to them. I don't care how trouble-free a relationship with a man might be, and if societal standards change to the point where there is no negative stigma in being homosexual, even to the point of gayness being seen as a superior condition, I am quite sure I'd still be straight.

An "in" thing to do??? I could not possibly change my mind and choose to be homosexual. How could someone choose to consistently, repeatedly have sex with a type of person to which they feel no attraction?

it's not any different than common rebellion, people do destructive things for lots of reasons, a lot of it is crying out for help or from frustration or to tell the world "look at me", you see it lots of ways, people who body pierce their face everywhere, lots of tattoos, goths who dress all f(ed up, being gay is often a type of masochistic rebellion, like those other things, often an in thing to do.

Posted: 2/25/2007 9:52:38 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

An "in" thing to do??? I could not possibly change my mind and choose to be homosexual. How could someone choose to consistently, repeatedly have sex with a type of person to which they feel no attraction?

it's not any different than common rebellion, people do destructive things for lots of reasons, a lot of it is crying out for help or from frustration or to tell the world "look at me", you see it lots of ways, people who body pierce their face everywhere, lots of tattoos, goths who dress all f(ed up, being gay is often a type of masochistic rebellion, like those other things, often an in thing to do.

Just curious, b-a: Did you figure this out by yourself, or do you have gay friends who have told you they got into it when they were young just to piss off their parents and now (for some reason) can't stop?

Posted: 2/25/2007 10:01:06 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Regardless of one's religious beliefs, it would seem that a simple study of human anatomy would clear up what is correct on this issue.

You can have anal sex with women too, and plenty of people enjoy that.

but you could put the male end of an power cord in any hole, but 2 male ends just don't go.

That's what the ass is for, sailor

Posted: 2/25/2007 10:11:08 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:

An "in" thing to do??? I could not possibly change my mind and choose to be homosexual. How could someone choose to consistently, repeatedly have sex with a type of person to which they feel no attraction?

it's not any different than common rebellion, people do destructive things for lots of reasons, a lot of it is crying out for help or from frustration or to tell the world "look at me", you see it lots of ways, people who body pierce their face everywhere, lots of tattoos, goths who dress all f(ed up, being gay is often a type of masochistic rebellion, like those other things, often an in thing to do.

Just curious, b-a: Did you figure this out by yourself, or do you have gay friends who have told you they got into it when they were young just to piss off their parents and now (for some reason) can't stop?

1 of my best friends has lived with another gal going on 6 years now, her and this gal even moved away because of this being a smaller city and she doesn't really want people to know, particularly her relatives. I've been close friends with this gal since we were small and i know for a fact she's not gay, she always liked boys and dated through high school and has had lots of relationships, but after bad relationship after bad relationship with guys after high school,, 1 in particular where she was physically abused by some jerk from nj she was engaged to, it's obvious to me she was fearful of guys and being hurt by them, quit dating and got tired of being lonely and finds security being with someone who doesn't seem dominating over her. I know this for a fact. That's my experience directly with that.

Aside from that, I think the way it's reflected in youths, in a way it never was when I was in high school, reflects how it's more of an influence that is pushed on the most impresionnable people there are, kids.
It's not as if kids just weren't out of the closet about it when I was growing up, it just wasn't there. I don't think nature just engineered a radically different type of person in the last 10 or 15 years either.

Posted: 2/25/2007 10:26:07 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
*SNIP*

1 of my best friends has lived with another gal going on 6 years now, her and this gal even moved away because of this being a smaller city and she doesn't really want people to know, particularly her relatives. I've been close friends with this gal since we were small and i know for a fact she's not gay, she always liked boys and dated through high school and has had lots of relationships, but after bad relationship after bad relationship with guys after high school,, 1 in particular where she was physically abused by some jerk from nj she was engaged to, it's obvious to me she was fearful of guys and being hurt by them, quit dating and got tired of being lonely and finds security being with someone who doesn't seem dominating over her. I know this for a fact. That's my experience directly with that.

Aside from that, I think the way it's reflected in youths, in a way it never was when I was in high school, reflects how it's more of an influence that is pushed on the most impresionnable people there are, kids.
It's not as if kids just weren't out of the closet about it when I was growing up, it just wasn't there. I don't think nature just engineered a radically different type of person in the last 10 or 15 years either.

Whats makes you think homosexuality is a modern phenomenon ?

I've got a few sources from Classical Greece and Rome, and a text on Tang Dynasty China (an imperial even) that demonstrate homosexual relationships.

Posted: 2/25/2007 10:29:40 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Regarding point 2, I would almost consider it a Chicken/ Egg kinda thing.
Are (according to your assertion) gays more likely to be serial killers/ pedos because it's inherent in gays, or is it because they're minds are so fucked from a lifetime of abuse and being looked down upon by society for being gay?

I don't know if that makes any sense.

I'll refrain from making a cliche comparison to guns/ gun ownership regarding "tolerance".

That should be easy. Was the incidence of crime more 20 years ago than now? Because if it is a causal relationship from abuse it would be more then. You cannot argue that there is much less of a stigma now.

Posted: 2/25/2007 10:31:23 PM EDT

[#29]

Do you really want to know how homos procreate? They recruit. Young people.

Posted: 2/25/2007 10:48:54 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
*SNIP*

1 of my best friends has lived with another gal going on 6 years now, her and this gal even moved away because of this being a smaller city and she doesn't really want people to know, particularly her relatives. I've been close friends with this gal since we were small and i know for a fact she's not gay, she always liked boys and dated through high school and has had lots of relationships, but after bad relationship after bad relationship with guys after high school,, 1 in particular where she was physically abused by some jerk from nj she was engaged to, it's obvious to me she was fearful of guys and being hurt by them, quit dating and got tired of being lonely and finds security being with someone who doesn't seem dominating over her. I know this for a fact. That's my experience directly with that.

Aside from that, I think the way it's reflected in youths, in a way it never was when I was in high school, reflects how it's more of an influence that is pushed on the most impresionnable people there are, kids.
It's not as if kids just weren't out of the closet about it when I was growing up, it just wasn't there. I don't think nature just engineered a radically different type of person in the last 10 or 15 years either.

Whats makes you think homosexuality is a modern phenomenon ?

I've got a few sources from Classical Greece and Rome, and a text on Tang Dynasty China (an imperial even) that demonstrate homosexual relationships.

When america was a God fearing country and the country had a Godly set of principals, there was a much higher sense of morality, but as God is run out of the country He is replaced by immoral things. So it isn't a new phenomenon in history, just 1 that was really non existent in America till recent decades.

Posted: 2/26/2007 12:52:10 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Regarding point 2, I would almost consider it a Chicken/ Egg kinda thing.
Are (according to your assertion) gays more likely to be serial killers/ pedos because it's inherent in gays, or is it because they're minds are so fucked from a lifetime of abuse and being looked down upon by society for being gay?

I don't know if that makes any sense.

I'll refrain from making a cliche comparison to guns/ gun ownership regarding "tolerance".

That should be easy. Was the incidence of crime more 20 years ago than now? Because if it is a causal relationship from abuse it would be more then. You cannot argue that there is much less of a stigma now.

It depends on your background, as far as it being less a stigma now. If the people you run with are generally more "liberial" sure it's easier. But if your like me and don't general hold to "liberial" views it's not. And just a 411 but liberial parents aren't any happier about having gay children than most of you are. They just think it's funny when conservative have them.

Posted: 2/26/2007 1:08:09 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The city of Soddom and Gomorrah (and others) comes to mind - God destroyed the city and its inhabitants because of their extreme wickedness. Homosexuality being foremost among those sins.

I tend to subscribe to the position of "loving the sinner, but hating the sin." Gays and Lesbians are my brothers and sisters and no less God's children than I. While I try to treat everyone with kindness and respect, it does not mean that I condone homosexuality. Homosexuality IS wrong. I believe the spread and acceptance of homosexuality is accelerating the decline of our society.

Sorry, man. The bible is not a history book. Using it as one just makes you look dumb.

Posted: 2/26/2007 1:11:19 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
*SNIP*

1 of my best friends has lived with another gal going on 6 years now, her and this gal even moved away because of this being a smaller city and she doesn't really want people to know, particularly her relatives. I've been close friends with this gal since we were small and i know for a fact she's not gay, she always liked boys and dated through high school and has had lots of relationships, but after bad relationship after bad relationship with guys after high school,, 1 in particular where she was physically abused by some jerk from nj she was engaged to, it's obvious to me she was fearful of guys and being hurt by them, quit dating and got tired of being lonely and finds security being with someone who doesn't seem dominating over her. I know this for a fact. That's my experience directly with that.

Aside from that, I think the way it's reflected in youths, in a way it never was when I was in high school, reflects how it's more of an influence that is pushed on the most impresionnable people there are, kids.
It's not as if kids just weren't out of the closet about it when I was growing up, it just wasn't there. I don't think nature just engineered a radically different type of person in the last 10 or 15 years either.

Whats makes you think homosexuality is a modern phenomenon ?

I've got a few sources from Classical Greece and Rome, and a text on Tang Dynasty China (an imperial even) that demonstrate homosexual relationships.

When america was a God fearing country and the country had a Godly set of principals, there was a much higher sense of morality, but as God is run out of the country He is replaced by immoral things. So it isn't a new phenomenon in history, just 1 that was really non existent in America till recent decades.

Not trying to take a cheap shot at your views barkley-addict...but you see what you want to see. I grew up in a small town in Ohio, and alot of people there think that there little or no homos living in town. but they would freak if they knew the truth, I myself was shocked when I started going to the bars in Dayton..and found out that most of the guys where from the same area I was......includng one of the local bankers.

Posted: 2/26/2007 1:39:05 AM EDT

[#34]

George and Elton, a pair of homosexual lovers, went hiking.

George ducked behind a bush when he felt nature calling.

Suddenly he called out, "How terrible! I miscarried! I miscarried! Here is a little arm! There is a little leg! This is so awful!"

"Shut up you idiot!" screamed Elton, "You just shit on a frog!"

Posted: 2/26/2007 1:39:49 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Regarding point 2, I would almost consider it a Chicken/ Egg kinda thing.
Are (according to your assertion) gays more likely to be serial killers/ pedos because it's inherent in gays, or is it because they're minds are so fucked from a lifetime of abuse and being looked down upon by society for being gay?

I don't know if that makes any sense.

I'll refrain from making a cliche comparison to guns/ gun ownership regarding "tolerance".

That should be easy. Was the incidence of crime more 20 years ago than now? Because if it is a causal relationship from abuse it would be more then. You cannot argue that there is much less of a stigma now.

It depends on your background, as far as it being less a stigma now. If the people you run with are generally more "liberial" sure it's easier. But if your like me and don't general hold to "liberial" views it's not. And just a 411 but liberial parents aren't any happier about having gay children than most of you are. They just think it's funny when conservative have them.

It may still be considered bad somewhere, but it is treated better than 20 years ago everywhere. In some places it was looked down upon and now is accepted. In other it would have got you killed and now is just looked down upon. Anyway if there is a causal relationship between treatment and crime it would show up.

I'm betting there is not. The condition is the cause.

Posted: 2/26/2007 1:40:04 AM EDT

[#36]

I didn't much give a shit when it was "don't ask don't tell" but when they "came out of their closets" and started telling me and my grand kids we had to accept them I got pissed! Keep it to yourself and we'll be just fine, tell me I have to accept it while you convince my grand babies it's OK and I will do my best to re-arrange your face. I don't give a damn what they say it is unnatural; period! Keep your perversions to yourself.

Posted: 2/26/2007 1:40:12 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The city of Soddom and Gomorrah (and others) comes to mind - God destroyed the city and its inhabitants because of their extreme wickedness. Homosexuality being foremost among those sins.

I tend to subscribe to the position of "loving the sinner, but hating the sin." Gays and Lesbians are my brothers and sisters and no less God's children than I. While I try to treat everyone with kindness and respect, it does not mean that I condone homosexuality. Homosexuality IS wrong. I believe the spread and acceptance of homosexuality is accelerating the decline of our society.

Sorry, man. The bible is not a history book. Using it as one just makes you look dumb.

there's more writings that back the Bible up than there are writings backing up a lot of history books in american classrooms.

Posted: 2/26/2007 1:46:20 AM EDT

[#38]

I personally feel that gays certainly do already have the same rights as everyone else.Unfortunatly many feel the need to be up in everyone elses face about thier private life.I don't care what you do,or who you do it with,as long as you don't get up in my face about it,or my childrens.You stay in your world,I'll stay in mine.I don't go to gay bars and try to pick up on lesbians,why don't you stay away from me while I'm at my favorite place trying to play pool.You want to get married and live as a couple,thats fine.But don't shove your lifestyle down my throat.You have DECIDED to live a lifestyle that is not commonplace or generally accepted,why is your buisness.I have DECIDED I don't wish to be exposed to your personal life or to have my children exposed to it.When they turn 18 they can do what they want,till then you'll just have to wait to expose them to alternative lifestyles.

Posted: 2/26/2007 1:46:20 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
*SNIP*

1 of my best friends has lived with another gal going on 6 years now, her and this gal even moved away because of this being a smaller city and she doesn't really want people to know, particularly her relatives. I've been close friends with this gal since we were small and i know for a fact she's not gay, she always liked boys and dated through high school and has had lots of relationships, but after bad relationship after bad relationship with guys after high school,, 1 in particular where she was physically abused by some jerk from nj she was engaged to, it's obvious to me she was fearful of guys and being hurt by them, quit dating and got tired of being lonely and finds security being with someone who doesn't seem dominating over her. I know this for a fact. That's my experience directly with that.

Aside from that, I think the way it's reflected in youths, in a way it never was when I was in high school, reflects how it's more of an influence that is pushed on the most impresionnable people there are, kids.
It's not as if kids just weren't out of the closet about it when I was growing up, it just wasn't there. I don't think nature just engineered a radically different type of person in the last 10 or 15 years either.

Whats makes you think homosexuality is a modern phenomenon ?

I've got a few sources from Classical Greece and Rome, and a text on Tang Dynasty China (an imperial even) that demonstrate homosexual relationships.

When america was a God fearing country and the country had a Godly set of principals, there was a much higher sense of morality, but as God is run out of the country He is replaced by immoral things. So it isn't a new phenomenon in history, just 1 that was really non existent in America till recent decades.

Not trying to take a cheap shot at your views barkley-addict...but you see what you want to see. I grew up in a small town in Ohio, and alot of people there think that there little or no homos living in town. but they would freak if they knew the truth, I myself was shocked when I started going to the bars in Dayton..and found out that most of the guys where from the same area I was......includng one of the local bankers.

I'm not seeing what I want to see at all, times are different, much different with each recent generation.

Posted: 2/26/2007 2:29:31 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Another politically correct piece of shit I have to swallow! I don't want to be in the same room! I don't want em brushing up against me! How's that for politically correct? Now your next line should be to call me a homophobe!

If the shoe fits, wear it. Do you realize how many gays you interact with daily and you apparently dont even realize it?

I'll take a conservative ghey over a libtard any day!

At least I coul carry on a conversation with them.

Posted: 2/26/2007 3:14:31 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Regarding point 2, I would almost consider it a Chicken/ Egg kinda thing.
Are (according to your assertion) gays more likely to be serial killers/ pedos because it's inherent in gays, or is it because they're minds are so fucked from a lifetime of abuse and being looked down upon by society for being gay?

I don't know if that makes any sense.

I'll refrain from making a cliche comparison to guns/ gun ownership regarding "tolerance".

That should be easy. Was the incidence of crime more 20 years ago than now? Because if it is a causal relationship from abuse it would be more then. You cannot argue that there is much less of a stigma now.

It depends on your background, as far as it being less a stigma now. If the people you run with are generally more "liberial" sure it's easier. But if your like me and don't general hold to "liberial" views it's not. And just a 411 but liberial parents aren't any happier about having gay children than most of you are. They just think it's funny when conservative have them.

It may still be considered bad somewhere, but it is treated better than 20 years ago everywhere. In some places it was looked down upon and now is accepted. In other it would have got you killed and now is just looked down upon. Anyway if there is a causal relationship between treatment and crime it would show up.

I'm betting there is not. The condition is the cause.

Oh it is better now then 20 yrs ago...of course. But it's still hit and miss for the most part. I think most people just get use to it after awhile.

Posted: 2/26/2007 3:27:34 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

I'm not seeing what I want to see at all, times are different, much different with each recent generation.

Times are different....your exposed to homosexuality more now then say 30yrs ago. But that doesn't change the amont of honosexuals or where you'll find them. Small towns have the same precentage as big cites. But because small towns can be less accepting of it..small town gays keep a low profile. And from your posts you don't sound like someone most gays would just walk up to and say hi I'M GAY to. That's not a cheap shot...but I'm sure you make your feeling on the subject known. This board has alot more homos then you know of....they just don't want to deal with the gay topic like I do.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:02:19 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Times are different....your exposed to homosexuality more now then say 30yrs ago. But that doesn't change the amont of honosexuals or where you'll find them.

By looking at history we can see that practices are engaged in more widely when they are seen as "normal" by society than when they are not. The average Roman, for instance, was more likely to engage in homosexual behavior than the average 14th Century Scot.

Does this mean there was no homosexual behavior going on in 14th century Sctotland? No, but it was nowhere near the levels seen in Rome.

...Meaning that culture *DOES* have a significant impact on how many people do this sort of thing. There has always been a certain amount of homosexual behavior in the human species...but that does not translate to there being a fixed amount no matter what.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:06:09 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Quoted:

This board has alot more homos then you know of....they just don't want to deal with the gay topic like I do.

I posted a poll about that last year…

The Hive Mind was of the opinion their was an aweful lot of 'interest' hiding in the ARFCOM closet…

ANdy

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:11:50 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

...1 of my best friends has lived with another gal going on 6 years now, her and this gal even moved away because of this being a smaller city and she doesn't really want people to know, particularly her relatives. I've been close friends with this gal since we were small and i know for a fact she's not gay, she always liked boys and dated through high school and has had lots of relationships, but after bad relationship after bad relationship with guys after high school,, 1 in particular where she was physically abused by some jerk from nj she was engaged to, it's obvious to me she was fearful of guys and being hurt by them, quit dating and got tired of being lonely and finds security being with someone who doesn't seem dominating over her. I know this for a fact. That's my experience directly with that.

You have left out some key details but it sounds like your friend isn't a lesbian, she is in a close friendship with another woman and has no wish to be involved with a man at this time. My gransparents' best friends were a pair of women who lived together for 75 years as partners but (supposedly, and I always had a hard time believing) were not sexually involved with each other. I don't think that's terribly unusual, or that it has anything to do with this discussion.

...It's not as if kids just weren't out of the closet about it when I was growing up, it just wasn't there. I don't think nature just engineered a radically different type of person in the last 10 or 15 years either.

Let me see if I have this right - You are under the impression that there were no homosexuals among your peer group when you were growing up; that the apparent increase in visibility of homosexuals in society now is a result of there actually being more of them around. I haven't seen any verifiable scientific research to show that the proportion of homosexuals has changed.

In my high school class (1975) of just over 500 there were about two visible male homosexuals and zero females. I don't care what culture or period of time you want to compare it to, but statistically that is impossible. I've attended class reunions every 10 years. Every time I have learned of classmates who came out as homosexual (one former girlfriend of mine wrote a book about it), and men who mysteriously died single at a young age of unspecified cause (read AIDS epidemic in addition to a few suicides). I don't see that as people jumping onto a trend of changing their sexual orientation, or being influenced into it somehow - A lot of people don't figure that out about themselves until well after age 18, plus in the '70s it was verboten to discuss such things openly (yes, even in California).

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:19:50 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Meaning that culture *DOES* have a significant impact on how many people [hear about] this sort of thing.

You can get a lot more curious who dabble in it, but that's about it, from an accurate, unbiased historical perspective.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:23:50 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

By looking at history we can see that practices are engaged in more widely when they are seen as "normal" by society than when they are not. The average Roman, for instance, was more likely to engage in homosexual behavior than the average 14th Century Scot....

You find more references to it in the literature, but that does not mean there was really a higher proportion of homosexuals in Roman days than other times. It could simply be a reflection of acceptance by society in general.

One gay man I used to work with spent several years working for EDS in Tehran, Iran just before the Islamist revolution and explulsion of the Shah. He said that then as now homosexuality was a crime with some severe punishment (probably not death), but in the city he found no shortage of Iranian men willing to hook up with him.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:40:10 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted: While being gay may not be genetic, it certainly is not a choice.

Wrong! There are plenty of people who had kids who chose to be gay degenerates afterwards. There are plenty of gays who chose to have kids and live a normal lives afterwards. So obviously it's a choice because one can switch between the other by deciding and acting to change one's lifestyle.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:45:24 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
You find more references to it in the literature, but that does not mean there was really a higher proportion of homosexuals in Roman days than other times. It could simply be a reflection of acceptance by society in general.

Things like pedophilia were an institution in Roman society and were much less so in other societies.

It isn't a matter of them getting more ink....they got more ink because they were more widely practiced. Roman sources mention these things casually while outside commentators mention them with a sense of shock and revulsion....

Demonstrating that it was *HARDLY* a case of everybody everywhere doing the same thing in the same numbers.

Hell, go look at Corinth. The place was so libertine that even the Romans looked on it with disdain....and when you visit the Corinthian ruins you can see depictions of a woman's genitals carved into the street itself advertising for one of the innumerable brothels that existed at Corinth. Not even the Romans went that far.

While I am not an expert in the cultures of antiquity, I have done enough study and research to conclude that claims that the sexual practices of people are not influenced by culture and societal norms is poppycock.

Posted: 2/26/2007 4:48:50 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted: I would certainly hope that we have progressed beyond the mere purpose of "passing on genes." In this day and age, people can choose to reproduce or choose to avoid it. Being gay, sterile, or choosing to not reproduce does not mean anyone is living a meaningless life.

Passing on genes is the main purpose, or do you propose another alternative way to get around mortality? Yes, you can choose not to have kids. But that also means you chose a meaningless existence because you might as well not have existed if you have no relatives to carry forward.

It is not feasible to think that everyone in society will suddenly choose to stop reproducing, so don't bother saying "we need reproduction to continue as a society." If a segment of the population does not reproduce, it is not the end of that society. We have plenty of idiots pumping out kids as it is.

And what does that have to do with being gay and the deviancy of such a life? NOTHING. It's just some hot air your blowing out onto the screen because you know you're in the wrong and so you go on the defense by guilt-tripping others into not being so judgemental.

You seem to really be standing by the "most homosexuals are going to be abjects failures" (sic) statement in addition supporting the "truth" in your blanket statements. Where the hell are you getting your information? What is influencing you to be so stupidly hurtful? Does your church feed this crap to you, or did daddy teach you how them queers really are?

I've read a lot on this thread so far and obviously there hasn't been anything presented to change my mind. That means that so far I must be right! If the opposing view was correct, they would've put forth something I could have sided with by now.

What you are spewing is not "common knowledge." It is the usual crap you hear from angry religious leaders and insecure fratboys. - BG

Well BG, a simple anatomical examination or a quick glance at some science books should be sufficient. But you can consult religious leaders and fratboys if you like.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Homosexuals impact on society as a whole POLL ADDED (Page 4 of 6)

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