In the tradition begun by Old_Painless, I proudly present the Buick O' Truth.



People often wonder and debate about cars and how they react to being shot with various types of weapons and ammunition. The best way to find out the answer to those various car-related shooting questions is to actually shoot some cars.  

First, let's consider a situation sometimes faced by police officers, military personnel and even civilians: Shooting inside of a vehicle. Can it be done? What happens when you shoot a round inside a vehicle?

Yes, shooting from inside a vehicle can be done, and it can be done effectively. First up, let's see what happens with good ol' 9mm ball:



Here we see a gentleman, (a fellow ARFCOMer) putting a 9mm ball round through the windshield of the Buick. Here is the resulting target:



The red dot in the center was the point of aim used when firing the weapon. The hole marked up top is where the 9mm round actually entered the target.

Now .40 S&W:





Notice first of all how windshield glass has reacted to two gunshots at point blank range. Windshield glass is a laminate designed not to shatter upon impact. This laminated glass is much tougher than any other glass on the car and can have dramatic effects which we will discuss later.

Note the bullet holes made in the glass as seen from the outside:



Now let's look at the target after yours truly fires a Sig P220 through the windshield using 230 grain FMJ ammunition:



Remember that all shots are being fired with the red dot in the center of the target as the point of aim for the shooter.

So why are all the shots much higher on the target?

Look again at the bullet holes made by the rounds as seen from outside the vehicle. They are oblong and not perfectly round. This is because the bullet is actually deflected by the windshield. The angle of the windshield causes the top part of the bullet to impact the glass before the bottom part, and effects the trajectory of the round enough to move the impact of the bullet several inches.

Look again at the target photos: Notice anything interesting?

The heavier the bullet, the less deflection you see. My P220 shooting the 230 grain FMJ deflected the least, while the 9mm ball round deflected the most. Different vehicles have their windshields at different angles so not all deflections will be exactly the same as on this Buick. The more severe the angle of the windshield, the more deflection you are likely to see.

If you are ever forced to fire through the windshield of a vehicle, generally you should aim a bit lower than your intended point of impact to compensate for the deflection.

Notice how close the target is to the vehicle. A target farther back would be completely missed by these single shots. But there is a way to compensate for that:



Since the deflection only happens when firing through the windshield glass, firing repeatedly from the same hole will remove the glass from the way of following rounds, meaning that you can hit your point of aim.

Shooting through the windshield of a vehicle is not the ideal way to engage a threat while you are in a vehicle. The only time one would employ this tactic is if faced with a threat you cannot move away from. A car is a much better weapon than a handgun and should be used if at all possible to evade the threat, or to just flat run the threat over.

But if your vehicle is immobilized or blocked in, shooting through the windshield might be the only means of defense that you have.

It should be noted that armored vehicle glass works 2 ways, so do not try to shoot through armored vehicle glass.

Next up: Shooting from outside the vehicle in......

Tagged.  This should be interesting.

(Hoping there is fuel in the tank and tracer ammo is involved.)

This will end up being a legendary thread!  Good stuff, keep it coming in.

I'm proud of you, JW.

Good work.

I got to do this stuff at Blackwater back in January at a carbine course. Very interesting results (on a Volvo, by the way). Anyway, cars are concealment, not really cover.

Taggage

Good post.

Tag

HH

Nice thread...

I'll keep an eye out for the next one.

When do you plan to do it?

You need to SHOOT the Buick.....many many many times....

Tagged for lesson #2

Wow, something useful! Best thread I've seen on ARFCOM in a long time.

tag

Tag

Looks good

I will read this here thread.

Tag O truth

Great post.

Quoted: Wow, something useful! Best thread I've seen on ARFCOM in a long time.

Conversly, shooting into a vehicle thru a windshield one should aim a bit higher than normal.

tag to see if you test the hollywood physics of open door = bulletproof and closed door = not bulletproof.

Tagged like a fat kid at reccess.

So, how are your ears holding up from shooting in such a confined space?  Did it seem louder than your average indoor range?

tagged for more fun!  Would love to see what a rifle round (5.56 or 7.62) would penetrate on a car, my guess is short of the engine block, it's not stopping...

EPOCH

Quoted: So, how are your ears holding up from shooting in such a confined space?  Did it seem louder than your average indoor range?

That's what I was wondering.  + tag

.

Representing Deutschland, are we? I mean, was that a SIG? Not that I am in any way referring to umpimping ze auto, ja?

Quoted: Quoted: So, how are your ears holding up from shooting in such a confined space?  Did it seem louder than your average indoor range? That's what I was wondering.  + tag

I assume that they were wearing hearing protection...

Any info on the weight of the 9mm and .40 loads?

Tagged for the end.    


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GREAT THREAD...HIGH FIVE! I love it when I actually learn something usefull around here...tactically speaking.

Ooh.... educational.

Can't wait for lesson two!



-K

Tag

tag...

Tag

Quoted: I assume that they were wearing hearing protection...

Well, I assume so too, Mr. Smartypants!  

But one can still discern such things through muffs...

bookmark

The belt buckle is a good POA if you are looking for a high COM hit with pistol caliber.

eta: edited in light of second test.

Police officers are often forced to fire from outside a vehicle into the passenger compartment through the laminated windshield glass. As I said earlier, a car is actually an incredibly effective lethal weapon, a fact violent suspects know and exploit. Sometimes to keep from being run over or to keep a fellow officer from being run over, and officer is forced to fire into the passenger compartment to try and stop the driver.

So how does this scenario play out?

First up, a 9mm:



The target is seated in the passenger seat in this instance, and there is a red dot painted in the center mass of the target that the shooter aims for.



Look carefully at the target: A single round was fired, but there are three holes in the target. Why? Because laminated glass is particularly hard on bullets. It can sometimes strip parts of the bullet jacket off of the lead core, reducing the bullet's effectiveness on the anatomy of a human being. The red pen is marking the impact of the main part of the bullet. Notice how much lower it is than the point of aim...

In this case, the bullet did not penetrate the passenger seat:



Next up, the .40 S&W:



And the resulting target:



Notice again that we see several points of impact from a single shot. The bullets tend to partially fragment when fired through laminated glass, meaning that the bullet, several fragments, and even pieces of glass might impact the target inside the vehicle. Also notice that the bullet is still below the point of aim of the shooter, but by a smaller margin than the 9mm round.

The .40 S&W round penetrated the passenger seat completely, striking the target in the back seat of the vehicle:





Next up, a .45 being fired through a MK23 SOCOM pistol:





Notice how the main point of impact (which is indicated by the red pen in all the pictures) is at the point of aim. Again, the bigger the bullet, the less deflection you are likely to see. The .45 also had less fragmentation than the 9mm or the .40 S&W rounds.

So I bet you are wondering where the photos are of the .45's passthrough, right? Well, it didn't penetrate the passenger seat.

Before the .40 S&W fanatics start to post about how superior the .40 round is to the .45, a word needs to be said about the seats in this Buick. The seats in this car are built around what appears to be a VERY sturdy metal frame. This frame is, quite literally, bulletproof, heavier than I have seen in just about any other vehicle. I have done vehicle shoots before, and the .45 and .40 normally penetrate that seat fairly easily, while the 9mm and 357 sig sporadically penetrate it.

The .40 round in this series just seems to have hit a sweet spot that didn't have any steel in it.

People talk about how poorly GM cars are built, but as the shoot wore on we found that this particular Buick was actually a pretty tough cookie.

As before, we will also look at what happens when you put multiple rounds in roughly the same spot. Here as in the inside example, a 9mm Glock is used:



Again, if you put multiple rounds through the same hole in the laminated glass, the deflection factor goes away, as does the limited protection offered by the seat frame:




The bottom line? When shooting through the windshield into the passenger compartment of a vehicle, you need to keep three things in mind:

1. Laminated glass and the angle of the windshield may cause your round to deflect lower than your point of aim. How much depends on the angle of the windshield and the weight of the bullet you are using.

2. When fired through laminated glass, bullets tend to partially fragment, reducing the effectiveness of the bullet and causing there to be secondary projectiles (bullet jackets, glass, etc) that can impact the target OR other people in the vehicle.

3. When firing a bullet into a passenger compartment, there is no guarantee that it will hit ONLY the target you intend to hit.

What about the doors and the other areas of the car?

Patience, grasshopper. Those are coming next.

When do you have to return the rental?




Well done, and quite interesting thread, yes it should be a classic.  

How about Rifle ammo?

Quoted: You need to SHOOT the Buick.....many many many times....

Stay with me.

We shot it A LOT.

Taggitty, taggitty, taggitty....

Quoted: Representing Deutschland, are we? I mean, was that a SIG? Not that I am in any way referring to umpimping ze auto, ja?

Well, my 1911 has been through enough classes that I decided to give her a break.

tag

Quoted: Any info on the weight of the 9mm and .40 loads?

The 9mm was, I believe, standard 115 grain ball. I don't know about the .40. Perhaps the ARFCOMers that were there can clarify that.

Good stuff.

Quoted: Well, I assume so too, Mr. Smartypants!   But one can still discern such things through muffs...

The report was indeed a good bit louder than it was outside on the range, but in a wierd way. Outside you get an echo effect, where as inside the vehicle you get one big loud WHOOMP when you fire and it goes dead instantly.  

And yes, we were wearing hearing protection and eye protection.

We are crazy. Not stupid....

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Quoted: How about Rifle ammo?

We didn't shoot the glass with the rifle in this instance, but remember that the ligher the bullet is, the more deflection and fragmentation you get, so a 55 grain FMJ wouldn't do all that well through laminated glass.

A .308 would do better.

Tag for the outcome.