On a recent post about sight off-set, we discussed using 00 Buckshot at close range.

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot18.htm

My friend dport wrote me and said, "I believe that the new "Reduced recoil" loads will pattern smaller than what you shot.  Also, I've heard that they pattern smaller at longer ranges.  If I sent you some ammo, could you test it and see?"

My answer:  Sure!

So, we compiled some different 00 Buckshot.  Here it is:



We tried the following:

Remington Managed Recoil Buckshot, 8- 00 pellets

Hornady 00 Buckshot LM

Estate S.W.A.T., 9 pellets of 00 Buckshot

Remington Premier, 3" Magnum, 15 nickeled-plated pellets (My personal home load)

Before we start, let's agree to some things.  There are a lot of "what-ifs" when shooting a shotgun.  What if you used a longer barrel?  What if you used a tighter choke?  There are many others.  I used my Mossberg 12 gauge Maverick, cylinder bore, no choke.  This is a typical "Combat" or "Tactical" shotgun.

First we will try at 12 feet, the normal across-the-room distance.



Looks awfully close, doesn't it.

I shot all four on one sheet of butcher paper.

Here I am shooting the 3" Magnum load.  Tman caught me in full recoil.



"Kills on one end, wounds on the other."

Here's the results:



You can see the results on the paper.  The smallest group was the Hornady at 1 3/4 inch.  The largest was the 3" Magnum at 4".

It seems we see that dport heard correctly.  The reduced loads did indeed shoot a smaller group at close range.  This might make precision hits easier than the heavy hitter magnum.

Let's move the target out to 20 yards,



Even 20 yards is a ways away.

First, the Remington Managed Recoil:



It shot into a 10 inch pattern.

Then the Hornady:



It shot into a 9 inch pattern.

How about the Estate SWAT load?



It shot into a 13 inch pattern.

Finally the Remington Premier 3" Magnum:



It shot into a 17 inch pattern, but it also had 15 pellets.

It was time to move it out to 45 yards.



Many people will be surprised at how far 45 yards really is.

Here I am standing next to the target.



That's a long ways away.  We were running out of butcher paper and decided to test the smallest patterning load first, the Hornady 00 Buckshot.



As you can see, it made a 27 inch spread.  If you were centering a human torso on the group, only about 3 pellets would even hit the torso.

Finally, I tried the 3 inch Magnum load.



It made a 33 inch pattern.  If shot at a torso, about 7 or 8 pellets would have hit.

Lessons Learned:

1.  At close range, reduced recoil loads seem to shoot a tighter pattern.  But the difference is small, i.e., 1 3/4 to 4 inches.  As always, you have to aim a shotgun at close range.  The patterns are tight.

2.  At moderate ranges (20 yards), the loads had an average spread of around 9 to 17 inches.  This is getting big enough that, unless carefully aimed, many pellets will miss a bad guy.

3.  At long ranges, even 45 yards, you will miss with more pellets that you will hit with.  The question might be, "Why would you shoot at someone at 45 yards?"  Well, if he is at 45 yards and shooting at me, I will return fire.  If a shotgun is all I have, I will use that.  But understand that you will have a lot of missed pellets.

4.  Reduced recoil loads are easier on the shoulder to shoot.  But, you don't get something for nothing.  That also means that they will not have the total energy that a heavier load will have.  You have to make a choice and go with it.


Thanks to dport for the ammo and thanks to Tman for the photo help.

Cool!!

I love reading your posts. Good stuff!

First correctly spelled Response!!!!

scratch that

Nice job as always. Excellent illustration of the havoc 00 can wreak in close range situations. Superimpose those first groupings over a heart or head and you can imagine the devastation.

Thanks again!


-HS

File that under "more good to know info from OP".

When are you going to start a column in a gun rag?  I'd imagine that would help the ammo budget, and imagine the loaners...

And another post to be added to the neverending badass list of posts for OP... thanks!

Estate S.W.A.T., 9 pellets of 00 Buckshot

Anybody have any idea who still sells this stuff?  I'm running dangerously low.

Awesome post as always OP!

This also reinforces the importance of aiming when it comes to shotty's!

Are you going to stay with the Remington Premier load for personal use ?

I got some 42" dia. cardboard circles from my newspaper- they come on the rolls of paper and are considered waste here. I used these for targets and keep em' in the garage between the wall and a storage case. Good to refer to from time to time, and if I dump a particular load I use them on the patio when I fry a turkey.

I'm true to the American creed, "More is better." 3.5" mag out of a Benelli. This would undoubtedly blow someone CLEAR ACROSS THE ROOM. I saw it in a movie once.

Shotgun for HOME DEFENSE it is!

Tagged for home.

Thanks OP.

Yet another gret post. Thanks OP.

Was the Hornday a reduced recoil load?

O_P,

You are amazing!  

You should head up a Think Tank of shooting results/performance and get paid very handsomely for it.  The info you produce is just outstanding!

HH

Good stuff as always OP. One of my favorite threads here!

That should help end the "Shotguns don't require aiming" myth.  Thanks Old Painless!

Quoted: File that under "more good to know info from OP". When are you going to start a column in a gun rag?  I'd imagine that would help the ammo budget, and imagine the loaners...

I'd never make it in a gun magazine.

The editor would send me a piece of junk and say, "Write up something about how good this gun is", and I would be out of a job.

You're killing me OP, you're killing me!


Awesome stuff as always!

Quoted: Estate S.W.A.T., 9 pellets of 00 Buckshot Anybody have any idea who still sells this stuff?  I'm running dangerously low. Awesome post as always OP! This also reinforces the importance of aiming when it comes to shotty's!

dport will know when he gets here.

And, as I know that you know dolomite, if I hadn't aimed, I would have mostly missed these targets.

Shotgun shells are not heat-seeking missles.  You have to aim them or you will miss.

Excellent, as always.




What would be interesting is how consistant are these shotgun patterns?

Admittedly this falls into the "what if" catagory, but have you tried this with more than one shotgun?  I've heard that two "identical" shotguns can pattern the same load very differently.  If you have the time and inclination maybe you could try another gun or put another cylinder bore barrel on that Maverick and give it another go.

I'd be interested in the results.

Quoted: Are you going to stay with the Remington Premier load for personal use ?

Good question.

The answer is, Yes.

I realize that, as dport suggested, the other loads shoot into a tighter pattern.  But that is not a big issue to me.

If I have to STOP someone, I want them STOPPED!  Right now.

The 3" Magnum loads put more energy on target.  That's what I want.

YMMV.

Quoted: Was the Hornday a reduced recoil load?

It says "Light Mag" (TM) on the carton.  I assume that means reduced recoil.

Thanks

Quoted: You're killing me OP, you're killing me! Awesome stuff as always!

Take a break, old buddy.

You've earned it.

Excellent post O_P

Great work!
My only disappointment is that there was no Hevi-shot.  
I keep 2 ¾ inch HEVI·SHOT® 00 buckshot loaded in the Mossberg 590 for those "unplanned" occasions that I hope never ever occur.  I would have been interesting to see the results, but at $2 a shot, it's a little tough to go out and "test" that stuff.

Quoted: Shotgun for HOME DEFENSE it is!

Yea...I used to be one of those guys too.
Then I stopped smoking crack.
Carbine it is.

I'd like to see an AR carbine vs. shotgun head to head test.

Nice Work!!

Quoted: Finally, I tried the 3 inch Magnum load. It made a 33 inch pattern.

This would be pretty crappy shooting with a carbine, yet for a shotty, folks think it's fine.......hmm.

Quoted: Good question. The answer is, Yes. I realize that, as dport suggested, the other loads shoot into a tighter pattern.  But that is not a big issue to me. If I have to STOP someone, I want them STOPPED!  Right now. The 3" Magnum loads put more energy on target.  That's what I want. YMMV.

Personally I use standard 2 3/4" Remington or Federal buck loads in my 870. (The standard ones. No reduced recoil pansy nonsense for this cowboy....) I think I would rather have the extra couple of shots that I get using the 2 3/4" shells than the extra power of the 3" magnum.

Most hi-speed, low drag folks I talk to advocate the 2 3/4" shells as well.

Having shot 4 legged critters with both, it seems to me that at anything up to 25 yards the 2 3/4" loads did about as well at putting a critter down as the 3" loads.

Quoted: Quoted: Shotgun for HOME DEFENSE it is! Yea...I used to be one of those guys too. Then I stopped smoking crack. Carbine it is. I'd like to see an AR carbine vs. shotgun head to head test.

You strap a target to your chest and I'll fly you out to OP. I'll volunteer to run the scattergun, OP can use the carbine.

Quoted: Quoted: Shotgun for HOME DEFENSE it is! Yea...I used to be one of those guys too. Then I stopped smoking crack. Carbine it is.

In case you and markm didn't understand, this was not a "Carbine Vs, Shotgun" test.  It was a test of Buckshot patterning.

Personally, I'd chose an AR15 over a shotgun for defense.  But that wasn't the question today.

I'd like to see an AR carbine vs. shotgun head to head test.

Then go look at this:

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot18.htm

Doesn't answer every question, but it answers some.

Thanks OP!! Great stuff as usual.

O.P. for President

You still have my vote!

Quoted: Quoted: Finally, I tried the 3 inch Magnum load. photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=43713 It made a 33 inch pattern. This would be pretty crappy shooting with a carbine, yet for a shotty, folks think it's fine.......hmm.

You raise an important point.

Many people say, "If you shoot 'em with a shotgun, you will have 9 (or however many) hits every shot.

Will you?  At what range?  Because, as we saw today, it doesn't have to be too far and the patterns open up to where many pellets will miss the target.

At 45 yards, most of us would have no problem placing each and every round from an AR15 platform on the target.  You cannot do that with a shotgun.

Great test O_P as usual  

I don't use a shotgun for HD but I always wondered how well a 3" turkey load would work with a moderate (non-turkey hunting) choke.

Other issues to address while pattern testing.

Avoid any load that donuts like the Estate load did at 20 yards.

Avoid loads that clump two or more pellets togather.

Pick a load that shoots close to aim.

Your maximum range is whatever range your prefferred load will keep every pellet on a human torso. Beyond that range you seek cover and transition to slug, or sidearm.

FWIW Federal "flight control" Buckshot uses a licensed copy of the Hornady Tap's choke shot cup, and should offer simular patterns.

Quoted: Personally I use standard 2 3/4" Remington or Federal buck loads in my 870. (The standard ones. No reduced recoil pansy nonsense for this cowboy....) I think I would rather have the extra couple of shots that I get using the 2 3/4" shells than the extra power of the 3" magnum. Most hi-speed, low drag folks I talk to advocate the 2 3/4" shells as well. Having shot 4 legged critters with both, it seems to me that at anything up to 25 yards the 2 3/4" loads did about as well at putting a critter down as the 3" loads.

I do not disagree with you.

The main thing I likes about the Remington Premier loads was that they are Nickel Plated Buckshot.  Having recovered a lot of buckshot, I know that lead pellets take a real beating just going down the barrel.  I thought the hardened nickeled shot might hold up better.

One thing for sure.....I am still open to improvements.  If I find something better, I will switch in an instant.

I don't own any Remington stock.

Quoted: Quoted: Was the Hornday a reduced recoil load? It says "Light Mag" (TM) on the carton.  I assume that means reduced recoil.

If it's hornady TAP then blue hull means low recoil and Red hull means standard pressure.  "Light Magnum" has traditionally meant ammo loaded near the maximum SAAMI pressure specs in an attempt to get increased velocity. such as loading .308 at the upper pressure limits to duplicate .30-06 performance.

The term "magnum" when referring to shot shells has traditionally meant more pellets at the same velocity.  For example low recoil 00 buck with often have 8 pellets, standard 00bk will have 9, and magnum will have 12. "Light mag" as used by hornady might just be a marketing thing with no conncection to the traditional use of those terms.

Quoted: O.P. for President You still have my vote!

Great!

That makes a total of 2!

Quoted: Great test O_P as usual   I don't use a shotgun for HD but I always wondered how well a 3" turkey load would work with a moderate (non-turkey hunting) choke.

A lot of folks seem interested in the heavy Turkey loads that are available.

Experts seem to believe that a minumun of 10 inches or so penetration in ballistic gelatin is necessary for reliable stops on a bad guy.

So far, tests indicate that only 0, 00, and 000 Buckshot will penetrate to that depth.

Now, before anyone says it, No, I don't want to get shot with the Turkey Loads.  I imagine they might work just fine.  But I will go with the "Best", and not "Probably Will Work" loads, if I have a choice.

And for the shotgun, that is 0, 00, or 000 Buck.

Quoted: Quoted: Personally I use standard 2 3/4" Remington or Federal buck loads in my 870. (The standard ones. No reduced recoil pansy nonsense for this cowboy....) I think I would rather have the extra couple of shots that I get using the 2 3/4" shells than the extra power of the 3" magnum. Most hi-speed, low drag folks I talk to advocate the 2 3/4" shells as well. Having shot 4 legged critters with both, it seems to me that at anything up to 25 yards the 2 3/4" loads did about as well at putting a critter down as the 3" loads. I do not disagree with you. The main thing I likes about the Remington Premier loads was that they are Nickel Plated Buckshot.

Plated shot penetrates deeper and straighter than unplated shot too. pellet deformation from crushing under recoil, deformation travelling down the brkl, and crushing on impact increses pattern size and decreases penetration.

Chilled/Hardened shot is good.  Plated is better.

Quoted: Your maximum range is whatever range your prefferred load will keep every pellet on a human torso. Beyond that range you seek cover and transition to slug, or sidearm.

A very interesting "rule".  Not a bad one either.

This would shorten the maximun range for most folks to a much shorter range then they imagine.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Shotgun for HOME DEFENSE it is! Yea...I used to be one of those guys too. Then I stopped smoking crack. Carbine it is. In case you and markm didn't understand, this was not a "Carbine Vs, Shotgun" test.  It was a test of Buckshot patterning. Personally, I'd chose an AR15 over a shotgun for defense.  But that wasn't the question today. I'd like to see an AR carbine vs. shotgun head to head test. Then go look at this: www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot18.htm Doesn't answer every question, but it answers some.

Hadn't seen your site in a while.
Like the new look.
Yes it does answer the question.

I realize it was not a Carbine vs. shotgun thread.
It gave tangible evidence as to a shotguns limitations and capability, which makes it a good thread in my book.
Too often, opinions are based off of perceptions, not evidence.

Quoted: Many people say, "If you shoot 'em with a shotgun, you will have 9 (or however many) hits every shot. Will you?  At what range?  Because, as we saw today, it doesn't have to be too far and the patterns open up to where many pellets will miss the target. At 45 yards, most of us would have no problem placing each and every round from an AR15 platform on the target.  You cannot do that with a shotgun.

I'm curious if there is a reputable database that tracks the distances most home invasion shootings occur at. I'd guess the majority are much closer to 12' than to 45 yards, and possibly much closer to 12' than to 20 yards, which is of course 60 feet away.

I don't need my shotgun to group at 45 yards, or even 20 yards. I just need it to kill the bad guy in my house. If I do my part, the 00 buck will certainly do its part.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Was the Hornday a reduced recoil load? It says "Light Mag" (TM) on the carton.  I assume that means reduced recoil. If it's hornady TAP then blue hull means low recoil and Red hull means standard pressure.  "Light Magnum" has traditionally meant ammo loaded near the maximum SAAMI pressure specs in an attempt to get increased velocity. such as loading .308 at the upper pressure limits to duplicate .30-06 performance. The term "magnum" when referring to shot shells has traditionally meant more pellets at the same velocity.  For example low recoil 00 buck with often have 8 pellets, standard 00bk will have 9, and magnum will have 12. "Light mag" as used by hornady might just be a marketing thing with no conncection to the traditional use of those terms.

Light mag also uses compressible powder with a slower burn rate (I have been told, at least) to lengthen the pressure curve. So it works poorly out of short rifle barrels and can't be used in autoloaders.