ENOUGH!

BTT!

I am not surprised...as a firefighter, I risk my life everday for a bunch of bottom feeders.

Sorry, could not resist. Maybe they could name this story: "Liberal Enviro-whacko's kill firefighters"

Makes me wanna whoop somebody's ass!

Roy

Sounds like a serious breakdown of leadership.
1. A "mop-up" crew was placed on a fire  before it was  "contained". (no water dump when requested by the hotshots!?)
2. If there is a policy of scoop water now, we'll deal with the fish later, it wasn't acknowledged and followed. (This should never have even been an issue!)
3. When the fire flared up again (assuming it was "contained") crews were not ready with a safe zone already picked out (the crew chief's  & each firefighter's responsibility).

After the King's Canyon fire years ago, the Alaska Fire Service made sure we all knew the policy was; "ensure the firefighter's safety"
The mop-up stage is not about fighting fire, it's about putting out hotspots so things don't flare up again. Having a safe zone to fall back to is important even during the mop-up stage as some areas are not totally burned out the first time around. Tragedies like this should not be happening, but the reason they do is due to decision-making errors. Time after time over the history of firefighting, orders have been; not sent, received too late, misdirected or  overridden by someone who doesn't understand the basis for the order in the first place. All human error. It's sad.

btt

Post from WSmac -

Sounds like you know you're stuff, Sir! I was wondering about a mishap involving firefighters that were dropped into a canyon in the 1950's, somewhere out west, and about 8 or 9 men died.

It seems the tragedy occurred in some canyon and that was the name given the incident.

Are you familiar with that particular incident.
I think the History Channel did a story on it within the last few months.

Thanks for any info!

Eric The(I'veBeenBurnedOnce!ItWasEnough!)Hun[>]:)]

Stats and historical info on firefighter deaths can be had through the National Fire Administration, via a sub-site of www.fema.gov

Many firefighter deaths occur due to an officer failing his men.

The attitude must be "I will NEVER fail my men"...

afterthought...probably isn't a bad attitude for anyone charged with the responsibility (not privilege) of leadership.

note- none of this is directed at the folks involved in this specific incident, of which, I do not know the facts.

I saw that one.  I believe it was an episode of Wrath of God.  Also got some coverage on Suicide Missions: Smokejumpers.

THIS IS BULL FREAKIN SH*T!!!! Myself and 20 or so of my close friends are firefighters. If some environmental freak wants to let 4 firefighters die over a stupid fish, blow the mofo's head off his shoulders and let the fish swim in his blood. There is no sense in letting 4 HUMAN BEINGS die over a few fish. If they want to kill for the environment, I say we send them to Brazil or somethin and see how long they last in their precious environment with snakes and poisonous critters and hot temperatures and all kinds of diseases. Let them die over a few fish.

MIKIE

I'm with you Mikie, its about time that those that cost human life be roasted on the spit, and then their agency or group sued for every penny that they have. No one's life is worth a damn fish or owl or whatever little creeping piece of shit and that includes the tree huggers.

I'm goin all the way with this one. First Worchester because our "great" president can't build a few houses for homeless people b/c he spends all our money on the iraqi problem; and now a bunch of fish. I went to FOX News and i'm supposed to get an address for these tree huggers, even an email address will work, and they're gonna get an ear full. Our country's in a shithole as it is and now fish come before us. HAIL TUNA!! HAIL SALMON!!!! It's time somebody does something about it, and it might just be me.

MIKIE

Eric The Hun:
I believe the incident you are talking about was the one where one of the firefighters decided to burn his own safety area and move to the black to avoid being burned alive. This was considered a radical plan and he wasn't able to convince some of the others to stay with him. They died on the run, and I believe in a field of rocks(?). I think the story is told in a book titled - Men of Fire, or Young Men of Fire. I've never read the book, but I have heard of the incident.

Yeah, it's ridiculous, but I blame the damn command structure more than anything else.

When people are in danger on the ground there should be no hesitation to get the water from the most expedient source.

There should be no before-the-fact meetings getting in the way.

And the fact that it took them 2 hours to make the right decision is exactly why.  I want to believe there was no coffee & donuts or lunch consumed while these people were roasting, but  
I have this nagging feeling that someone was brushing off rainbow sprinkles when they should have been making a command decision outside "channels".

A biologist or other enviro should have no part (zero, zilch)  in such a decision.  Only in taking stock of the situation after it's over.

Also there shouldn't be such a thing as a dispatcher who hasn't had at least a year or two of field experience.  And whoever's in charge of the dispatchers should have twice as much, maybe someone be someone who actually still fights fires.

It's tempting to ask why the crew field boss wasn't more aggressive with the dispatch office, but we just don't have enough information from one article.

Rest in Peace

WSmac, Eric, I believe you're referring to the Mann Gulch Fire

What about the pilot that obeyed the order?
Command, "Negative. I repeat, Negative. Permission denied."
Coversix, "Roger that. Kiss my ass. You can fire me when I return, cur."
I would then scoop the water and any fish in it and proceed to cool off some men.
This pisses me off.
C6

I think that lake/stream/river or whatever body of water should be poisoned and kill every one of these endangered fish just in case there is another fire in that area in future.  I'm sure that would make it easier to get water.