AND I WANT TO KNOW WHY DAMMIT! Maybe if Andreusan wasn't kicked off he could shed some insight.

Anyway it's the big one C5? is that what it's called I got to walk inside one at an airshow once, it was coo. But it's been circling for 30 minutes now at low altitude maybe 2 or 3 thousand feet and "vectoring" out I don't know if thats the right term but the circles its making are slowly moving north from the downtown area.


conspiracy people wanna help me out? give me a reason to be alarmed, c'mon. I'm just wondering "why the hell" right now.  do I need to buy a tinfoil lined chemical suit?

and now it's gone...they saw what I typed didn't they?

Is there an Air Force base within a couple hundred miles?  

It' the invasion!!  Quick, go hide somewhere.  It's dark there, how are seeing it as opposed just hearing it and seeing nav lights?

The C5B isn't the problem. Ya gotta watch out for the AC130's, MH53 Pavelow's, and the real killer, MH6's. When you see them, put on the tinfoil hat, chemical suit, and depends undergarments. (Unless you live near Hurlburt Field, or Ft. Campbell Ky.)

I'm in Tulsa and fairly close to downtown but didn't see anything....but then again I work mids so I was probably in my deepest sleep!

If my memory is correct, Uncle Sugar trains trash hauler aircrews near Tulsa.  Can't remember the name of the base.

I have some wicked video of AC-130s busting the PDFs a$$ in Panama, circa  December '89.

Eddie

Oh No!
It's the beginning of the NWO.
The U.N. is looking for guns with the technology sold to them by Chuck Shumer & HillBillary Klinton.
Quickly, run outside and save us all and shoot it out of the sky with your AR.
If lands on your house I'm sure all the members will contribute to a fund raiser for you.
Go! Don't Sit There Looking At the screen, Go Get It!
And may God be with you.

The only C5s that I knew of here were based out of Altus, which wouldn't be too terribly far out from where you are. Maybe just practicing "crashes and dashes?" I also understood that Rockwell serviced a lot of Air Force aircraft up there and a lot of the Air Guard missions were based out of there (F16s and junk).

Doesnt Boeing build C-17's in Tulsa?  Sounds like a new one on its maden flight.

Every self-respecting member of the tin-foil hat brigade has a FIM-92A, where was yours?

You really dropped the ball on this one, by now the blue helmets are already going door to door in your neighborhood.

That's nothing.  My husband, citizensoldier, saw a Stealth doing circles near I-44 and Hwy. 51 a couple of weeks ago.  It has to be worked on and evaluated somewhere.  Why not here?  There's also a tactical fighter group in Tulsa that has a long enough runway to land big planes.  They depart for real world missions from there also.

It's an Oklahoma Air National Guard unit, not regular Air Force. Draw your own conclusions as to what "real world" missions that the Nasty Guard conducts.

Over the Fourth out in Purdy, Washington there was one doing the exact same thing, circled five or six times and then left.

Watch the skies, they're coming for us.

Actually as the Tulsa paper puts it, most of their trips are to a certain no fly zone north of th Euphrates-Tigris river valley.

They used to give me free rides to some real S#$! hole countries.

Eddie

Yes, its a National Guard unit.  Its also a unit who has been helping patrol the no-fly zones.  That may not be real world enough for you, but it is for me.  They can be just as dead as regular Air Force.

As for the Nasty Guard comment, our Guard units are being drawn upon for more and more active duty.  And again, they die the same and bleed the same as our regular active forces.  National Guard soldiers are members of their community, and have vested interests in their communities.  I, for one, appreciate the time and effort they devote to helping defend our country.  

Semper Anticus!

By all means, keep on livin' that fantasy.

What "fantasy" would that be?  That a Guard unit is being ordered to active, or that I can appreciate what they do?

If you believe the National Guard is that bad, would you be willing to join and make a difference?  Or would you prefer to sit on your couch and complain?

Do you mean the same Oklahoma National Guard whose adjutant general, Tommy Alsup was sent to the pen for filing and collecting false death claims of deceased members? Do you mean the same Oklahoma National Guard who see it as a proud fact that only a third of its members fail the annual physical readiness test? Do you mean the same Oklahoma National Guard who regularly have units, and that's [b]UNITS[/b], not individuals, get kicked off of the ranges at Fort Sill for gross safety violations? Do you mean the same Oklahoma National Guard who called up its members after the May 1999 tornadoes in OKC and deployed them without provisions and facilities (that means food, water, and a place to take a dump)? [b]WOW!!!!!!!! I HAD NO F***ING IDEA THAT I WAS IN THE MIDST OF SUCH GOD ALMIGHTY F***ING GREATNESS!!!!![/b] As far as your silly, idealistc "vision" of making a "difference," my brother and I were both in the Okie Nasty Guard at one time. After he being a former active-duty Army 11H, and I being a U.S. Navy Machinist's Mate with six years floating in the NAV, the Nasty Guard is a bunch of keystone cops. You are very well aware that what I've said is the truth, whether you are willing to admit it or not (search the [i]Oklahoman[/i] archives if your memory is failing). Like I said, just keep livin' your fantasy.

Actually the OK army NG was one of the few that actually sent combat arms unit (MLRS) to the gulf to fill their wartime mission.

They were in the rear with the gear, eating MREs and pissing and moaning all day. If you want an accurate assessment of the Okie Nasty Guard, see the movie [b][i]Southern Comfort[/i][/b] with Powers Booth, Keith Carradine, and Peter Coyote. The movie was with the Louisiana Guard, but the gist is the same.

while they probably were complaining it was a MLRS unit and did fire a lot of war shots down range.

Uh, no, they were guarding Iraqi prisoners. Isn't there a song for you weekend warriors?

[b][i]Dreamin', I'm always dreamin'......[/i][/b]

Or maybe it's "Purple Haze" or "Dream Weaver." I think they need to perform more urinalysis on them.

Hey I have never been in the army NG, and generally not fan of them. But you have to give the unit its do.  They fired a hell of a lot of rockets at the Iraqis.

Then how would you know? The 45th I.D. of WWII fame would be ashamed of these guys.

If seeing USAF orNG planes out doing manuvers gives you the willies, come by my place.  I'm about 10nm from a NG training facility along the Illinois River.  On any given weekend, I see Blackhawks, Chinooks, and a few Cobras for good measure all buzzing around while the guys get their time in.  My 7yr old thinks it's cool and it adds to the realism when he's running around all camo'ed up!  BTW, it was about 100 in Tulsa today right?  Let's see, with a standard temp lapse rate of 3'F per 1000', that would make it about......85-90'F while they were flying around.  Been there, done that.  I guarantee they were in no condition to do anything but try to hold their breakfast down!  

       [bounce]=[puke]

I don't know what it was in T-town, but at seven in the P.M. here in OKC, it was 103 F. I went out and burned up some fodder this morning when it was 91 F at 10:30. I've heard the Nasty Guard guys doing the flying over where you are often fly in to Wild Horse Mountain Barbecue near Sallisaw and set their helos down in the parking lot.

Well, thanks for the rant.  Sounds like sour grapes to me.

1).  The Guard never has been, is not, and never will be anything like the active forces.  Trying to compare them is useless.

2).  Alsup was before my time.

3).  What unit(s) are you referring to with the comments about Ft. Sill and the '99 tornado deployment?  I've served with people who deployed in '99, and were proud to have done their job.

4).  I asked if you were more interested in helping change something you don't like, or sitting on your couch pissing and moaning.  You answered the question without even referring to it.  If you are not willing to help; you are part of the problem.  Good riddance.

5).  I stand by my comments.  Can the OK Guard be wrong?  Of course.  But I'll still take anyone who wants to serve over a civilian who would prefer to sit on their a$$ and complain about how things should be different.

Semper Anticus!

What amazes me about most detractors of the Guard, is that they have almost no clue of what a pain in the ass it is to serve in this capacity.  I know of no other part time job that can have you arrested for failure to show up for work.  No we arn't as high speed as the "Real Army" there is no way we can be. Most of us work full time at other jobs, try to shoehorn in some education, (Ok Guard Tuition Waiver) and have time for family. More often than not it screws up my life and plans, but it is a small sacrifice considering what the Guard stands for. A comment was made that the 45th I.D. Vets of WW2 would be ashamed of what we are. The Guard of the 1930's wasn't even paid for drilling. They were more of a social organization than a fighting force, yet did well when all hell cut loose.  The fact that we still pull off our mission even Okc 99, without proper support says a hell of a lot about the men and women of the Guard. To any of you who want to show me how it is done, email me. I can get you in and processed just in time for JRTC next May. We need good hands.

Semper Anticus

Well, go to Snow Hall (The "Hub of the American Artillery Wheel, it actually says that in a photo in the cafeteria of the building) at Fort Sill.  In there is a display of NG artillery units and their contribution to Americas various war efforts.  One of units on display is a MLRS unit from OK, shooting in Iraq.  Now, they maybe a lot of things, but you cannot deny that they are one of the few units in the Army NG that has fired shots in anger since Vietnam.

So I guess then that NG SF units, NG CSAR units, and NG pathfinders are all "slackers" (to sum up the military-hater words here)?

Give me a friggin' break.  

Sure, Guard units have their share of pogues, but so do regular front line units.  Some of the finest soldiers I know are in the Guard and Reserves.  I've gotta go with clockgrrl here, at least they're serving their country.  As for that REMF comment garbage, someone has to do it.  And again, at least they've answered the call.

-SARguy

The Air National Guard is run by the Air Force, and the Army National Guard by the Army.  They are completely separate serivces, even though the same state may "own" them.  The USAF has usually done a pretty good job utilizing the AirNG and integrating them operationally since the Vietnam War.  On the whole, the Army has done poorly integrating National Guard.  

About half of the Tactical aircraft used by the USAF come from ANG.  Look up who flew all those sorties in the Gulf and the ANG pulled their share (about half).  The Alaska ANG, and Hawaii ANG are the only tactical fighter units in those states.  There are no active fighter units stationed in either place.  Air Defense of the US is performed by the ANG.  All those interceptions of Russian bombers in the cold war?  Yup, ANG.  Nearly every C-5 fligth I took in the military was on a ANG cargo plane.  The reason is because the USAF recognized they could use the ANG effectviely, train it effectively, and fund it effectively.

The Army never took the right steps to itegrate the NG into the scheme of things.  When I was in the 1st Cav, we had two active brigades and one NG "roundout" brigade.  When the 1CD went to war, it did so at 2/3rds strength becasue that third brigade never showed up.  Basically the Army has pissed all the money it ever spent on the Guard down the drain.  There's been alot of restructuring, but still the Army uses the NG more as a political tool, rather than a fighting force.  Too bad too, becasue if used properly the NG could be far cheaper and benifit the nation as a whole more than it does now.  The Army won't do it right because of the politics of tryin got find things for itself to do in a post-cold war world.  Of all the services, it's having the most trouble adapting to the new way things are.  That leads to reduced budgets, cuts etc.  So the Army will try to justify every program, every post, every unit, everything and not "go cheap" and fund the NG where it should be.  

In my opinion we'd be better off with more NG units and less active ones.  There's no reason for 8 divisions when you can only move three of them in 60days.  NG divisions traind to a higher standard could esily be ready within 60-90 days.  That would drastically cut the budget and my taxes and not hurt rediness one bit.  Having 5 divisions ready to go (which they aren't anyway etiher) sitting here in the states does no good if you can't get them to the action.  Also if you have to activate the general populus for mobilization, all those politicians start making more careful decisions about introducing troops somehwere.  It's much easier to send in troops when it's the actvie military.  Everyone except their families figures it's no big deal to do that and they don't care what goes on in some BFE place.  Start having to call up dentists, doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. to serve in these idiotic excursions and the President would have to have the country behind him and a damn good plan as to how he's going to get them all back and when.  It's the Militia concept taken to the organized level.

Ross

The only "pogues" I've seen in the military are the fucking LAZY and incompetent active duty idiots I've dealt with. Air National Guard members train to the same standards and levels that their active duty counterparts do. On average, "guard bums" test to a higher success rate on all their CDC's and vocational aptitudes than do their active duty counterparts. When I was in the persian gulf last year, the active duty crew chiefs sent their new troops to train with us because we had 7-level crew chiefs with at least 10 years experience on the F-16 that the active duty doesn't have. I've done more rotations to the desert than my active duty counterparts.

We hold regular jobs, give up our weekends (and quite a few days during the week if you're a pilot), attend college, deploy to "real world" missions monthly, and a few of us participate in extracarricular activities on base like the NG rifle and pistol teams. This is just a normal committment to an ANG fighter unit. The trash hauler units do even more.

Jim Dandy, you typify the type of pogue that we just laugh at in the Guard. Sounds like you did one hitch in the active duty service and think you know something now. I've probably done more active duty time in my 13 years thus far in "real world" deployments than you ever saw.

Rant off...for now.

Ross, that is the exact opposite of how you determine the force structure.  You define the threat and requirements to meet it.  Than you ensure you have the infrastructure to move it.  You never say, since we neglected our lift capability, we have to reduce the force below acceptable levels in order to accommodate that inadequacy.

STLRN-
Sure, but that's not real life.  The USAF has only committed to moving ONE airborne brigade from the 82nd and being able to support it.  So if that's acceptable to the Pentagon and all of them, why bother with the other two brigades?  When was the last time a division size drop was carried out in combat?  

The bright boys in the Pentagon have already figured that you don't need to move those heavy divisions from the middle of CONUS very fast anywhere, yet they still maintain them on active duty, knowing full well they will not need them in the same time frame that would allow NG train-up.  To the planners, moving three divisions in 60days is an acceptable level and our lift assets haven't been neglected (I do agree with you that they have been neglected, and you and I both know there's alot of smoke and mirrors that goes on at this level).  So why keep several other divisions on active duty when they can be turned into NG units, funded and trained better because of the savings, and ready to go when we need them (60-90days)?  Sure it's great to have everyone cocked and ready to go, but even those Active duty heavy divisions(except the 24th) have 30day train-up windows before deploying to their war fighting positions.  Look at how long it took to deploy to the Gulf.  Near a year all told.  Those were mostly active units too.  If National Guard troops couldn't be trained up in a year, then we need to be finding out where all that money went we've been paying on taxes to support the Guard.  There's alot of evidence that the Guard could have been deployed and succeeded, but wasn't becuase the active Army didn't want it there.  

The Air Force can't go to war without the Guard.  They've integrated fantastically well.  Why can't the Army do the same thing?

Ross

On the air lift, it actually a little worse than that.  Because of the formation of the AEF, the air force has already said that they are going to take about 60 percent of the lift to just get their AEF support into theater.  With their projections that they will have only about 85-90 percent aircraft ready, And if course if anyone is going to suck up a shortage its not going to be the air force, so that means the army will only get around 20-30 percent of the lift.  

The whole problem with the integration of army NG units into active units is that unlike the Air Nation Guards were a large chunk of the people have similar jobs in the civilian world, Additionally the government paid for flight hours for both are about the same, since a lot of the pilots are pilot in their normal job, they get even more than time in the air than the regulars. There is very little similarity between many of the combat arms jobs and civilian jobs.  Not many people have to run patrols, garrote people, adjust artillery, do J turn on dismount in the civilian world.  If I remember right, after 6 month, all the combat NG Bde needed 30 days to 3 more months to be ready to deploy.  

Keep dreamin'......weekend warriors.

The Pentagon has screwed the pooch when it comes to air and sealift.  It's not as glamorous, nor as profitable for contractors (who hold power in Congress through money) to build simple cargo planes or RO-RO ships.  Just when the future is calling for rapid deployment, the Pentagon allows our lift capability to erode.  

I agree that the Army NG can't be handled in the same way as the Air NG.  It needs to be handled different than it is now though.  Right now the Army NG is a waste of money.  A BIG waste of money because the Army isn't willing to do it right.  The fault lies squarely with the Army if a NG unit can't be trained up to meet it's wartime mission.  

Think of the billions spent on the NG over the last few decades.  If they can't go to war, why did we spend that money?  The answer is because of politics.  The simple fact is that as long as DA refuses to change the way it handles the Army NG, we are just pouring money down the drain.  If the Army can't train a unit to go to war in a year (as in the Gulf with some NG units) there's something wrong.  

If we are paying for this as taxpayers, why aren't we getting our money's worth?

Ross

Jim Dandy,

This is not intended as a flame.  

Personally, I find it harder and harder to believe that you actually did serve (voluntarily).  I say this because I don't know any soldier who would go to such great lengths to dishonor their brothers-in-arms.  You see, every soldier, sailor, and airman is my brother.  I will (and have) worked with some of the best in the world as far as I'm concerned.  From some lowly supply guy, all the way up to guys way more high-speed than me, we are all on the same team.  It's called [b]honor[/b].

So what exactly is your problem?  If it's jealousy for the high-speeds, apply for different schools.  If it's that you don't think things are run the way they should be, go to OCS, climb the COC and change things.  If you're not in, go Reserves or Guard and change things.  By laying out all the bs (some of which could be true, I'll give you that) and painting everyone with a broad brush, you do nothing but degrade those who would, and those who have, given their life for this country.

The Guard and Reserves all have a vital mission in the defense of our country.  I'm proud to serve and have nothing but respect for anyone who does in any capacity.  Sounds to me like you are a bitter individual who doesn't know what it [i]means[/i] to serve.

Again, not intended as a flame,

-SARguy

We need to get back to the more important topic at hand:



Ha!  They didn't leave - you just can't see them anymore because you have succumbed to their mind control beams.  Next time, try this -

[url]http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html[/url]

It always helps me when I start hearing "the voices."

"It can't be stressed enough how important it is to have the shiny side pointing out."

Don't be so damned idealistic, John Wayne died a long time ago, [b]SARguy[/b]. What I'm saying is true and is not commentary. Nasty Guard are [b]NOT[/b] my brothers in arm and don't even rate the duty of carrying my sea bag. The Oklahoma Army and Air Guards are such a rag tag outfit that they've literally had to resort to begging and bribing in order to meet retention and recruiting numbers (free college tuition, direct commission with NO OCS for college grads). Think those guys are motivated for your lofty ideal of duty? Think again, they're in it for the benefits and they're outa there. To paraphrase a silly statement made by [b]glockgrrl[/b] (only my version is correct), the typical Okie Nasty Guardsman has his/her ass parked on a couch, watching Jerry Springer, eating a block of commodity cheese, waiting for the next drill. Talking about the Okie Nasty Guardsmen, not bona fide reservists.

Why don't you speak the way you are to someone who has lost a family member, either in combat or training. See how far you get then. Soldiers are soldiers, partime or full time. I am a full time one, who has worked with part timers, and they like us, have their share of arseholes. Remember that! Freedom has one price, the blood of our young generation of the free world. Fight to keep your freedoms!

Weekend warriors are wannabes who can't make the cut for full-time active duty. Too bad, too sad. Back to more Jerry Springer.

Well Jim,

I am in awe of your high-speed abilities to carry your own seabag.

When ST 7 and 10 are commissioned next year, they will need CO's.  Maybe you should apply.  Show them how NSW should really work.
I'm sure they would bump you right to CO without BUD/S or anything with all your valuable factual information on the military.

I'm sure we could all learn from you, Sir.

-SARguy

Seriously, I am really beginning to doubt that you actually did serve.  I've never heard anyone with so virulent an attitude other than couch-bound, beer-drinking wannabe commandos.

Alot of tough talk coming from a machinist-mate.  Sounds like you couldnt hack it in either regular Navy or ARNG... how sad.

"Wannabes?"  Most of us in the ARNG were Regular Army who got out to pursue civilian careers, but just cant seem to completely get "it" out of our system.  

With regard to your comment on OCS, all new college grads in pursuit of an Army (RA, USAR, ARNG) Commission need to have gone through basic training first (prior enlisted dont need to go through basic training again). Candidates then need to successfully complete OCS to be commissioned and then go to Officer Basic Course.

As for training in the ARNG, my combat engineer battalion always trained at Fort Irwin, at Fort Lewis and Yakima, WA; recently completed construction projects in Panama, Alaska and along the Mexican border; attached a company to the 4th ID (Mech) during AWE'99 at the NTC; conducted amphibious and engineer operations during Kernel Blitz'97 and '99 at Camp Pendelton; served as infantry (engineers do that too) OPFOR against reserve Marines at Ft. Hunter Liggett, and have sent elements to Graf and Hohenfels, Germany annually for the past three years (usually attached to OPFOR, but one year a platoon was attached to an element of the 508th PIR).

When I was a Platoon Leader my NCOs were extremely competent, and since all of them were RA and most were Gulf War vets, they had no love for slackers. It was a joy to have worked with such fine Soldiers. Hence, I did not see the "southern comfort" phenomenon that you so adamantly proclaim as inherent with the ARNG.

Essayons!

Okay, so you all are eating the commodity bologna. Still weekend warriors who couldn't make the cut for active. Later, dreamers.

Jim
I will tell you about one of the recent students I instructed.  He is a 2Lt (active duty) in the Army, although he failed OBC on the first shot, he was allowed to go to his unit on the second.  He came about getting his commission in the active forces, because he failed out of Alabama State OCS.  After failing OCS, he went to ROTC, they commissioned him.  So you find people who shouldn't be there in both the active and the reserve component.

Man, that transport sure has been circling a long time, hasn't it?