Looking for a 9mm PCC with a brace for around $1000. Reliability and durability are important.

What are the best options:
New Gen Scorpion
GHM9
AKV
other?

Stribog

Roller delay but not with antiquated controls like an MP5

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my 3 9mm (and a bonus 44mag)

I prefer the ruger of the three.

but any of them will work.

Busts the budget but fun and reliable…

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Blow back sucks, roller delay is where it at OP

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Local gunshop has one of these in FDE.............belongs to one of the salesmen, and he teases all the time that he would sell it for 2800 bucks, but he priced it that high because he really doesnt want to sell it. It's nice and handy

Personally I have a strong bias for the 8".  The impact on weapon size is very little, while the handling and ballistics are (IMHO) notably better.  5" is just too short to get your hands on.
Again, IMHO, no problem if someone pops-up like them's Fight'n Words!  But that's what I think.  

If the unit has a US marked roller-block (most do, it's 45 degrees), that's a band-aid GrandPower did while still fucking around - save that for underpowered ammo that doesn't cycle anything.  Order a proper 40 degree roller (they are cheap) - which will notably lower the recoil in the roller-delay action, and still run just fine with most any ammo.  If you plan on suppressing, then put an exclamation mark after that sentence.

For source -

Global O. used to post deals all the time in EE, I'd look there.  Just make sure of a few things
-SP9A3 SN >4000 (or otherwise with the updated bolt)
-Curved magazines (which you can get separately) - FWIW, the curve helps some, but what really fixed the problem is they redid the feed lip geometry, with the curved ones being the only ones with that correct on.
-40 degree block (which you can get separately - a lot of people are getting them for free from Global O even (wish I knew that))
-I upgraded the recoil buffer and the safety selectors via HB Tactical or HBI or whoever that is.  Also did the mini-comp (that's barely bigger than the muzzle nut) - but DUDE!!  Watch that, somehow I ended up with a .30 cal version of that (??  or .. something that was undersized), that the Stribog just blew the fuck out to .355 cal diameter in the first few shots.  Gun took it just fine and kept going... for 3000 rounds before I started to wonder - why these occasional odd flyers?....   In their defense, company was like "woah -that doesn't look right - we're sending you a new one RFN", when I asked them if this was normal 18 months later, when I was like "why do raw 9mm bullets not actually fit through this?"...  .  And look at that - once I put on the actual 9mm version - no more weird ass flyers.  

Even though its mission statement is an SMG with a simple red-dot - I run it at 200 yards all the time.  Oh!  in fact - here's a soccer mom running the Stribog out in open field shooting.  She loved the Stribog.  EVERYBODY loves that Stribog.  You can see her ding steel at 200 yards first shot open field on some screw-off drills we were doing waiting for the eclipse - watch her look back with that "holyshitdidyouseethat??!"  

(yes, Rumble is ad-aggressive and you'll need to manually set to high rez - be sure to have audio on - it's a quick clip; best in full-screen).  It's notably lighter than most offerings, since it has modern materials of construction and roller-delay allowing for a lot lighter bolt - making it just a treat to hold and run, yet mild recoil due to roller delay (be sure to run the 40 block).

Here's the French chick at the outing who loved it too - and asked for some glam-shots.

@Glck1911


Only thing you get with a core is a mag manual and case


The other models may have a flash hider and scope mount and more then 1 mag


Get a core and go to gun deals and find mags cheap

Hk parts for scope mount and furniture



I paid 1030 before transfer fee last February

Atlantic has the best price

This. Love mine. Broke it in a couple days ago. Put 350 rounds of 124 grain FMJ and it ate it flawlessly. Very accurate and good trigger.

I have the 5”.

This thread is a perfect example of why I have not picked one up.
There does not seem to be a consensus "this is the way to go" weapon.  

IMO a PCC (really a sub gun, I have no use for a 16" pistol caliber unless it is a lever action .357 or something), should have 4 items:
1. No buffer tube (should be able to fold and have a small footprint)  
2. Not be direct blowback (it is freaking 2024)
3. Affordable
4. Reliable  


What fits all four criteria?  

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Get the caliber you want. Comes in 10mm as well.

800 Rounds through the gun.  Almost all of them suppressed. 400 or so with the 40 degree roller.  Zero malfunctions.  Love it.

My post right above yours answers this.  Or, I guess I thought it did.  And yes, I agree with all your criteria and logic.

well I have a bunch of them, so far theres only one that I would "trust"

The others are fun but have potential longevity downside, by that I mean something breaking or mags failing.


CZ scorpion - I have the EVO3, not the "new" one. I didnt buy one of the new ones because I didnt want to buy new mags when they re-designed them which was retarded. solid gun, blowback. The biggest downside is they are completely plastic with plastic mags. I bought mine when they first hit the market and the feedlips were breaking off. Since then I have trouble trusting the mags.
I got have some PGS hybrid steel feedlip mags
PSA mags are GTG
supposedly the new CZ mags are GTG but I only have 3 of those.


KP-9 - pretty solid gun, very accurate. They had some teething problems with QC and OOB dets, I sent my bolt in to have it updated although I never had a problem. Mags are pretty cheap down but they are still plastic injected around steel feedlips. the magwell is plastic, its never caused a problem but obviously plastic has the potential to break.

AP5 - probably the most fun. Solid build, accurate, good mags, retro vibes. My only two complaints are there isnt a lot of good options for mounting things like lights and lasers for NV use. If you are fine with an optic and a light then you are good to go. But if you want an IR laser its hard to fit all that on in a neat package.
The longevity complaint with this gun will be extractor springs. It is a wear item, will it last 500 rounds or will it go 5k... nobody knows. So keep spares with you.

Aero EPC - This is the only gun I actually "trust". simple blowback, put whatever rail you want on for lights, lasers, typical AR optics. Early complaints with feeding problems were fixed with the updated barrel a couple years ago.
Uses glock mags and LRBO that works. All metal receivers and whens the last time you saw glock mags fail?



ETA: just put a folding adapter on the EPC buffer tube and you are good. cant shoot it that way but thats as close as you get

9mm AR using Colt-pattern magazines. That way you'll have plenty of money for ammo and the manual of arms is identical to an AR-15.

I'm a big fan of the braced pistols over PCCs, but if you're going to PCC route the stribog seems to be where it's at.

Get the S model though, and the G lower if you have glocks

It sorta did, I was just looking at the comparisons.  I always get the Global Ordnance emails and see them, but I don't know a whole lot about Grand Power other than early reviews were bad, later reviews are better.


I do have a question in general for those that have 9mm PCC's.  What was the reasoning for 9mm over 10mm?

Ammo cost?
One less caliber to stock?
Recoil for new shooters?
Just something fun to have?
More subs available to shoot suppressed?

10mm is more powerful than 9mm, for sure.  But the cost is substantially more.  I guess for me, 9mm is a bit more optimized.  If I want power, a MK18 in 556 will smoke 10mm all day long, for similar size and controllability - if not better.

To me, the mission statement is a rapid fire SMG.  To be good at that, it needs to be light and easily controllable.  Which is why I like Stribog - modern light weight, while roller delayed for excellent controllability.  9mm is an effective round, and this 30 round gun is intended to send more than 1, and quick.  To me, I can do that better in 9mm than 10mm, both in weight and rapid rate, for a round that still does what I want it to do.  The longer 8" BBL.of Stribog means that 9mm round hits harder.  The roller delay action that locks that bolt, means I can overload to hit yet even harder, if I want.  An 8" 9mm to a 3.5" 9mm, is like a 9mm is to a .380, step up in power (I think at least).
While  I view 10 mm as "better", but 20 round mags and notably more recoil for 3x ammo price...  hmmm..   I do kind of want one, but I'm not even touching it until they Start making bigger mags - and honestly, I doubt even then.  

I don't call it a PCC, and have no interet in a "common platform" to the AR.  I have AR's for that.  Amd I don't want a cheaper lighter reoiling rifle AR.  I want an SMG, which is very handy, and.shoots rounds quickly.  Of all the units out there, I consider the Stribog the best one , for intersts and mission statement
 Most others are notably heavier, or are based on AR form factor first, function second.  This includes units that cost 3x or 4x more than Stribog - I would still pass most of those over, for a Stribog instead.

Again though, Grand Power bumble fucked their intro and development so bad, it's not surprising so few like it, if you got burned early.   I feel.bad for Scorpion, because they lead the way of focused SMG 9mm, bit they just won't upgrade to modern roller delay, and their neighbors in agrarian Slovokia that thr Czech's mechanically inclined folks (with a lottle.pride), have just been upstaged by the Slovak's on this one. No way would I get Blow back Scorpion over a roller delay Stribog today.  In 2021, I would have answered that differently.

Only if you want the same weight as an AR.

Extar has been awesome.

While it’s fun to discuss PCCs amongst each other, OP is going to forget he posted this thread and re-post it again in 2 months.

45 pictured, but they look about the same.

No AKV yet?


I've been quite happy with mine. Don't really like the scorpion and hate the mp5.

You can get a pair of Extars for $1k, both 9mm and 45 if you wish. They're reliable and I've kept my Gen 1 around because it's just so light and easy enough to shoot that I often introduce new shooters to the sport with it.

Favorite however would be the Banshee in either 9 or 10mm but they're a bit over $1k

Can't argue the value proposition of the AP5s as well and can be found around $1100 now and then with 3 mags and bag (i.e., not the "core" versions)

I agree.  It's weird that you can get an AR for $600 but a subgun with these characteristics is 3x that.  Pistol caliber components are smaller, have lower pressures, and have a large enough market to achieve economies of scale.

I am leaning to a Stribog myself.  However, it is a big turnoff that I would need a Scorpion lower and HBI buffer to achieve reliability.  That brings the price well above $1k before optics.

Good news - you don't need the Scorp lower.  Just run curved mags and Stribog is fine.  As to price, everyone and their dog makes AR's and entire factories mass produce the parts by a gazillion- of course the AR is much cheaper due to economy of scale production.  AR is a great gun.  If you want an AR.

CMMG Banshee is another option for used around $1k if you prefer AR format.

I really wanted the CMMG offering to be "it."  They are a long time supporter here.  However, the Banshee cannot fold stock over, and the Dissent is too expensive for a 9mm.

Plus the cerakote thing really turns me off.  Aluminum uppers should be Type III hard anodize, no paint.

He said around 1k!

This is GD, such requests are not honored!

Fantastic rifle ! I tried every ammo i could get in the local stores, fed everything !

I got the Ruger PCC carbine - put Midwest Industries furniture on it and love it.  then built my own with a spikes lower using colt stick mags - AR-9 and it's a fun-gun - really run through the ammo.

Those of you with the Stribog, have you changed the OEM lower for one of the newer ones made of metal? Any need to? I kinda like the option of using Scorpion mags

No,  No,   by all means, go for it, if you want to.

As to reliability, Curved Stribog mags work just fine, and can be had for $20 if you shop.  I've had Scorpion's jam on me, they aren't the uber-bastion of reliability people act like.  Also, be aware, that a blowback gun mag reliability may not behave the same as a roller delayed, because the snappy recoil of blow-back will jar the magazine which allows an imperfect magazine to still run.  Watching slow-mo x-ray vids of a gun firing is eye-opening, with how much jarring and jostling goes on in a magazine under recoil.  

Which I think is why Gen 1 Stribog's did OK(ish) with the straight mags (which have a TON of drag in them), but the smoother recoiling A3 Stribogs needed redesigned mags to run well.  Which, if you run the curved mags, they run just fine in the Stribog.  Meanwhile, Scorpion magazines are made for a blow-back gun.  And they also have plastics lips, that also break just as fast under the right abuse.  Maybe still good mags, but I've seen nothing to suggest they are better mags than the Gen 3 Stribog mags.

Thanks for the reply. I am looking at the A3 Stribog , so I guess I will stick with the curved Stribog mags and save the cash on the lower for more mags and ammo

I bought a manticore arms upper to put on a new frontier Glock mag lower. I have no metric on durability yet but the little bit of shooting I’ve done with it so far has gone well.

Plus the form 1

No
No
Curved Stribog mags works great

Extar EP9 2nd generation
Good reviews on YouTube

Somebody has one for $600 right here.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Equipment-Exchange/FS-FM-Products-FM9-8-5-PCC/179-2436061/

The P isnt a very elaible gun for many. Lots of complaints here and my buddies -P jams a lot and his safety selector fell off.  The full size is pretty good though

Anybody put their Stribog on a scale? How much does it actually weigh?

My 7.8" Scorpion is about 6 3/4lbs empty with light, optic, pistol brace, & sling.

It's been reliable for me with 115, 124, 135, & 147gr 9mm. Ball and HP. No silencer yet, though. The amount of plastic may be a problem in the future.

Are you suggesting that you can use Scorpion magazines in a Stribog? Because I am kinda all in on those. Bought a bunch from MagPul. That would help ease the transition (or addition) to Stribog.

You can if you swap the lower.

https://lingleindustries.com/gen-2-aluminum-stribog-lower/

https://a3tactical.com/stribog-lower-receiver/

In that price range, go with a CMMG Banshee.

Out of all the 9mm PCC's I have, the Banshee is by far the most functional and practical.  Bonus that it can use a standard AR15 lower, so if you have an SBR'ed lower, you can use it w/o any changes.

I've got two - top left corner.

Yes, all of the above, and to have on hand in a SHTF situation.  If SHTF my thoughts are that 9mm will likely be the most available ammo, and if I had something that increased the capability of the round over the ballistics of my g19 it was worth having.  

No love for the Dissent?

S&W FPC: