User Panel
Posted: 6/26/2017 2:27:32 PM EDT
Alabamians ought to be used to it by now.
So many laws designed to protect the powerful, at the expense of the powerless. Maybe it all seems big, and amorphous, just a bunch of policies and structures too big and cold to get your head around. Until you look at rape. The most personal of crimes. The most elemental, intimate display of power and control. Again Alabama protects the powerful. And shame the powerless. A story appeared on Buzzfeed last week, a powerful piece about a University of Alabama student who told police she was raped by T.J. Bunn Jr., a wealthy and important Tuscaloosa man. She was dismissed and treated badly by Tuscaloosa police, held to a different standard than the man, and she wound up killing herself. It was tragic. I can't speak to all the facts of the story. It was clearly reported for a long period of time, and made a compelling case that cops in Tuscaloosa are tougher on victims of rape and sexual assault than they are on attackers. http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2017/06/alabama_turns_rape_victims_int.html How Accusing A Powerful Man of Rape Drove A College Student To Suicide TUSCALOOSA, Alabama — Megan Rondini’s friends and family remember her as having an ironclad sense of right and wrong. Her childhood nickname was “Rules Rondini” because she was such a principled board game player. As an honors student at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, Megan offered rides to drunk girls walking alone at night, even after one threw up in her backseat. No one was there to help Megan when she found herself in that very situation one night in July 2015, except for a well-to-do businessman Megan knew only as “Sweet T.” The 34-year-old later told authorities he offered 20-year-old Megan a ride home because he and a friend saw her leaving downtown Tuscaloosa alone. Megan couldn’t remember how she ended up in Sweet T’s white Mercedes on the way to his ornate mansion, decorated with his choicest hunting conquests, from massive-tusked elephant and wide-mouthed hippo heads to taxidermied lions and leopards. But, Megan later told police, she was sober enough by the time he pointed her toward his bedroom to know she didn’t want to have sex with him — and, she said, Sweet T should’ve known it, too. women are generally expected to do two things if they believe they’ve been sexually assaulted: Go to the emergency room and call the police. “Was it consensual?” Megan's friend asked her when she picked her up that night, the friend told investigators. “Like, did you want to?” No, Megan told her. She didn’t. That’s why they went to the hospital for a forensic exam, even though it was the middle of the night and Megan had just run away from Sweet T’s mansion by climbing out of his second-story window. Afterward, instead of going to sleep, she met with law enforcement for an interview. Megan never imagined that she would soon be cast as a criminal, or that investigators would view Sweet T — really T.J. Bunn Jr., son of an influential Tuscaloosa family — as the true victim. But that’s exactly what happened. Under Alabama’s archaic rape law, victims must prove they “earnestly” resisted their attackers, and the investigator who interviewed Megan quickly decided she hadn’t fought back against Bunn — she hadn’t “kicked him or hit him," he explained. His investigation would conclude that no rape occurred. But he didn’t stop there. Instead, he started building a case against Megan, questioning her for multiple crimes she wasn’t even aware she had committed. Later, when Megan tried to file a civil suit, she learned the only way to escape possible prosecution for those crimes was to drop her case. When she went to the University of Alabama for counseling, a staff therapist told Megan she knew the Bunn family and therefore couldn’t help her. (She was referred to another counselor, left out of the story. Bama) Megan’s case was complex. Then again, most sexual assault allegations are. There are rarely witnesses, and trauma survivors often have fragmented and incomplete memories, which can cause law enforcement without specialized training to be skeptical of their accounts — especially when alcohol is involved. Megan left Tuscaloosa newly diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder. In the months that followed, her depression grew worse, along with her sense of betrayal. “When all is said and done, I wonder what I could’ve accomplished if one man didn’t completely rip everything away from me,” Megan texted a friend in February 2016. Two days later, she hanged herself. Megan, who stood 5-foot-6 and around 130 pounds, had about five cups of beer on July 1, she would later tell investigators — not enough, in her experience, to get that drunk. But somehow, she said, she blacked out, only coming to around midnight in Bunn’s brand-new Mercedes as he and his friend drove to Bunn’s home about 20 minutes away. Megan was intimidated by Bunn, so much so that she didn’t try to stop him as he drove toward his house, she told investigators, even though “he was drunk and driving and it was concerning me.” Bunn put his drunk friend to bed and told Megan to go to his room, she told investigators. She said she complied, sitting on a couch near the door, as far as possible from his bed with monogrammed “B” pillows. Bunn walked in and told her he wanted to have sex. That’s when Megan said she had to leave, while “trying to be really nice to him” because “I know he’s an influential person in Tuscaloosa.” “I said, I really need to go, I have friends that are waiting,” she told police when they first interviewed her at the hospital. “He didn’t really take that.” Eventually, Megan said, she “felt like just letting him have sex with me was the only way he would let me go.” Bunn brought her over to his bed and pulled her shorts to the side while she looked away from him, she told investigators. The incident report would later state that she “verbally informed Bunn that she did not want to have sex with him and that she needed to rejoin her friends at Innisfree,” but that he “ignored these statements and continued to engage in intercourse with her.” Afterward, Bunn passed out, and she felt she could leave safely, she said. But no matter how hard she tried, she couldn’t open his door. She started texting friends around 1 a.m., begging for help. “OMG,” she wrote to one, “I can’t get out of the room.” Megan told police that, in a panic, she climbed through Bunn’s second-story window, jumped onto a gate and then to the dark, unfamiliar street below. When she realized she didn’t have her keys, she started frantically searching for them, even climbing back into Bunn’s room and then out again. Next, she checked Bunn’s Mercedes, where she found his wallet and a pistol. She grabbed $3 in case she had to take a cab and the gun “for safety,” she told investigators. Megan didn’t know how to handle guns, she’d later explain, and she accidentally fired it before dropping the weapon to the ground. Finally, a friend picked her up. They arrived at Tuscaloosa’s DCH Regional Medical Center around 2:40 a.m. In late July, Mike Rondini said, the district attorney called to let him know Megan’s case didn’t meet the legal definition of sexual assault and wouldn’t be brought to a grand jury. Two weeks later, Megan got a letter confirming her case was closed. She wasn’t ready to give up. In August, she hired a lawyer to file a civil suit. Megan told a therapist that fall that she was suing Bunn “due to the fear that she is not the first person he has assaulted or the last." But although Megan and her family were told her criminal case wouldn’t move forward, the district attorney’s office eventually decided to present it to a grand jury after all. There was a catch. In a package deal, the grand jury would also rule on felony charges against Megan for breaking into Bunn’s car and stealing his gun. Internal documents from September 2015 imply authorities didn’t intend to fight too hard on Megan’s behalf: Investigators noted they found “no sexual assault occurred.” The Rondinis learned the criminal case was back on the table only after they hired an attorney for a potential civil suit. Once they heard Megan might face felony charges, they decided it was best for Megan to drop the civil case, https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/how-accusing-a-powerful-man-of-rape-drove-a-college-student?utm_term=.vx0L8e9P0#.arrzKkVaj This story is huge in our area. So it turns out they actually went by her apartment before she left with to go to the guys house. She had her cellphone the whole time and never tried to dial 911. She stole money and a gun from the guys car. The whole gist of the story is he was rich and powerful. Lots of information out there. But the big push is to basically make it so a man can be charged with rape with no proof he actually did the crime. |
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Lots of information out there. But the big push is to basically make it so a man can be charged with rape with no proof he actually did the crime. View Quote You mean that's not how it already is? |
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27 students at UA reported sexual assaults last year. Only two arrests were made. Which is absurd. View Quote |
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Would a woman falsely accuse a rich man of rape for a potential civil payout of millions of dollars?
naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah |
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I will need to see her psych records before I buy that anything in particular "drove" her to suicide.
Also, what's wrong with requiring a woman to forcefully tell a man no? |
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In before someone says, "Good thing he got off. Women lie."
Oops, too late. |
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I will need to see her psych records before I buy that anything in particular "drove" her to suicide. Also, what's wrong with requiring a woman to forcefully tell a man no? View Quote Now obviously a guy might proceed thinking she's ok with it and she's just a boring lay but either way the law shouldn't require resistance. |
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FBI crime stats state that 20% of all rape claims are flat out lies.
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A lot of women become passive when they are raped. They lay still and wait for it to be over. It's a survival mechanism. Now obviously a guy might proceed thinking she's ok with it and she's just a boring lay but either way the law shouldn't require resistance. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I will need to see her psych records before I buy that anything in particular "drove" her to suicide. Also, what's wrong with requiring a woman to forcefully tell a man no? Now obviously a guy might proceed thinking she's ok with it and she's just a boring lay but either way the law shouldn't require resistance. The law absolutely should require enough vocal and or physical resistance that it's clear to both she means "no". We are talking about people going to prison. He told her to go to his bedroom, and she walked in. She was sending mixed signals, particularly when both were drunk. |
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All of this stuff makes me glad I am in a long term relationship with a woman I love and trust.
The world is crazy, and it doesnt matter if you are a man, woman, black, white or green.....lots of crazies out there and I want nothing to do with any of them. I tend go agree that there needs to be some indication that a person doesnt want to have sex for it to be rape (given we are talking about adults). If there is no indication the act is unwanted, how is the accused supposed to know to stop? I mean, saying "no, stop, let me leave, etc" would be plenty.......we just cant require people to be telepathic here. |
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Alabama is corrupt as fuck.
I went to high school with a rich kid who was driving drunk, killed a woman, was advised by his family lawyer to leave the scene of the accident and go home and sober up, and got six months probation for involuntary manslaughter which was later expunged from his record. Another guy left two children to burn to death at his hunting camp while he was parking his H2 away from the flames so it wouldn't get damaged, criminal and civil suits for a gross negligence or dismissed against him despite the fact there was a witness testimony that he had left the stove running and started the fire while he was blackout drunk. Honestly, I have a bunch of these stories. |
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If she told him that she didn't want to have sex with him (she says she told him), and he continued, then it's rape. It also sounds like the police were really bending over backwards to not file charges.
She did go to the police right away. This isn't something where she waited years. On one hand, maybe she wanted a payout. On the other hand, he's so rich and powerful and used to getting his way, maybe he is the type to ignore a "no." And, how many gold-diggers commit suicide after their plans are thwarted? It seems she couldn't live with the unjustice of it all. At least that's what it LOOKS like. |
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They all have that borderline tarded look that comes as a result of a handful of rich families inbreeding to try to keep their land and money and they all dress the same way. Most of them have names like BJ, TJ, RJ, or something with a J behind it. |
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I don't mean "why didn't you tear his face off", I mean tell him so that any person would understand you're not just saying that, you don't want to do it. The law absolutely should require enough vocal and or physical resistance that it's clear to both she means "no". We are talking about people going to prison. He told her to go to his bedroom, and she walked in. She was sending mixed signals, particularly when both were drunk. View Quote |
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I looked at a few articles on it... all written by women and frankly all biased toward the 'male dominated system'
I did enjoy reading the comments because sure as shit they blame Trump But I haven't read anything that would lead me to indict, if I had been on that grand jury She was at an Irish pub, drinking '5 cups of beer', she was 20 ( whats the drinking age in Alabama?), and don't the micks use pints, a pint being 2 cups. But did sweet-t provide her the booze, that may have been an element of the crime...but it reads like the intimidation was limited to not threats but that she was intimidated by his influence as being from a prominent family? I don't think that would be enough to pursue a complaint in the majority of states. Throw in her having a cellphone, calling her friend to come pick her up...smells like bullshit |
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I don't mean "why didn't you tear his face off", I mean tell him so that any person would understand you're not just saying that, you don't want to do it. The law absolutely should require enough vocal and or physical resistance that it's clear to both she means "no". We are talking about people going to prison. He told her to go to his bedroom, and she walked in. She was sending mixed signals, particularly when both were drunk. Again, I don't need to see wounds on anybody, but if you want toss someone in prison, it needs to be unequivocal. Do you disagree? |
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Would a woman falsely accuse a rich man of rape for a potential civil payout of millions of dollars? naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah View Quote Even just accusing someone, anymore, is enough to ruin them. You can't really shake that title unless there is a publicized punishment on the other end. You want stronger rape laws, I'm all for it...but women better understand that it's going to work both ways. You falsely accuse someone or it's that "I regret sex last night...rape!" accusation, you are getting as stiff of a sentence as the guy would have. |
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Sounds like a "he said, she said case."
I'm not saying she's lying but what do people expect to happen in cases like that? |
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Use your words. Do you disagree that women sometimes give mixed signals to men? Long ago, in college, in fact, I have been told "no", which I absolutely honored, only to be awakened shortly thereafter by an unmistakable act that, itself, said yes. Again, I don't need to see wounds on anybody, but if you want toss someone in prison, it needs to be unequivocal. Do you disagree? View Quote |
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that looks like 99% of the rich guys I grew up and went to school with in Alabama. They all have that borderline tarded look that comes as a result of a handful of rich families inbreeding to try to keep their land and money and they all dress the same way. Most of them have names like BJ, TJ, RJ, or something with a J behind it. View Quote Monty Python - Upper-Class Twit of the Year |
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So what you're saying that if someone is rich, powerful, well known, influential, and can afford top lawyers, they can get away with anything. Who'd a thunk? https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lE6j_3tpJrc/maxresdefault.jpg View Quote Not really the same thing as a wealthy person buying justice. |
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Would a woman falsely accuse a rich man of rape for a potential civil payout of millions of dollars? naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah View Quote She had a her cellphone with her the whole time. Why didn't she call a friend, a cab or 911? |
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So what you're telling me is that if she's too drunk to resist, it's not rape. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Use your words. Do you disagree that women sometimes give mixed signals to men? Long ago, in college, in fact, I have been told "no", which I absolutely honored, only to be awakened shortly thereafter by an unmistakable act that, itself, said yes. Again, I don't need to see wounds on anybody, but if you want toss someone in prison, it needs to be unequivocal. Do you disagree? You can do better than that, white knight. She didn't say she was too drunk to resist, so why would you make that up? |
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Alabama is corrupt as fuck. I went to high school with a rich kid who was driving drunk, killed a woman, was advised by his family lawyer to leave the scene of the accident and go home and sober up, and got six months probation for involuntary manslaughter which was later expunged from his record. Another guy left two children to burn to death at his hunting camp while he was parking his H2 away from the flames so it wouldn't get damaged, criminal and civil suits for a gross negligence or dismissed against him despite the fact there was a witness testimony that he had left the stove running and started the fire while he was blackout drunk. Honestly, I have a bunch of these stories. View Quote |
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I told this story at work and to my wife. I modified it so that it was a guy that was drunk and got into a random guys car. Got the shit kicked out of him and robbed. Every person I told that story to said "he's an idiot and deserved it."
Then I told them the real story. Most people said she was an idiot who put herself in a bad situation. She didn't deserve to be raped but at the same time she set herself up for it on a platter |
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All of this stuff makes me glad I am in a long term relationship with a woman I love and trust. The world is crazy, and it doesnt matter if you are a man, woman, black, white or green.....lots of crazies out there and I want nothing to do with any of them. I tend go agree that there needs to be some indication that a person doesnt want to have sex for it to be rape (given we are talking about adults). If there is no indication the act is unwanted, how is the accused supposed to know to stop? I mean, saying "no, stop, let me leave, etc" would be plenty.......we just cant require people to be telepathic here. View Quote |
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lol, that's not what he said at all. What he said is that there's a shit ton of reasonable doubt here. View Quote If you failed to resist a robbery should it not be a crime? |
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Frankly, it doesn't sound like much of a case no matter who the accused was. The victim got drunk, got in the accused's car, and went to the accused's home. She entered the accused's bedroom under her own power. That's her story. The parties agree that they had sex - consensual or unconsensual. She says she took a gun and money when she left.
How would you like to try to convince a jury BRD that she is a rape victim rather than a willing sex partner who helped herself to some goodies on the way out? |
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And that's just it. You want to hold those responsible for the crimes accountable but it works both ways. Even just accusing someone, anymore, is enough to ruin them. You can't really shake that title unless there is a publicized punishment on the other end. You want stronger rape laws, I'm all for it...but women better understand that it's going to work both ways. You falsely accuse someone or it's that "I regret sex last night...rape!" accusation, you are getting as stiff of a sentence as the guy would have. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Would a woman falsely accuse a rich man of rape for a potential civil payout of millions of dollars? naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah Even just accusing someone, anymore, is enough to ruin them. You can't really shake that title unless there is a publicized punishment on the other end. You want stronger rape laws, I'm all for it...but women better understand that it's going to work both ways. You falsely accuse someone or it's that "I regret sex last night...rape!" accusation, you are getting as stiff of a sentence as the guy would have. Femnazis want "guilty until proven innocent without a doubt". I say "you bring up rape charges and lose, you get to pay the bills and/or serve time" or something less severe like you have to publicly drop all charges or some shit, there's a reason I don't write the laws. Anyhow, some kind of punishment aughta cut down on the fake rape cases |
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FWIW Florida law says "'Consent' shall not be deemed or construed to mean the failure by the alleged victim to offer physical resistance to the offender."
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Oh I definitely wouldn't vote to convict based on the article. No chance in hell. And a lack of resistance could indicate to a reasonable person that she is consenting. But I cannot tolerate the idea of a requirement to resist. If you failed to resist a robbery should it not be a crime? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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lol, that's not what he said at all. What he said is that there's a shit ton of reasonable doubt here. If you failed to resist a robbery should it not be a crime? People have sex, and people rape/get raped. The ONLY difference is consent, and the ONLY way to decide if there was consent is "what would a reasonable person in that situation think?" Therefore, there has to be unequivocal words or action that communicate that there is no consent. |
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QFMFT Femnazis want "guilty until proven innocent without a doubt". I say "you bring up rape charges and lose, you get to pay the bills and/or serve time". That aughta cut down on the fake rape cases View Quote How would you like that to be the standard for filing a complaint about a theft or some sort of assault? If it turns out the accused is not convicted, the victim goes to jail instead? Uh, no. |
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that looks like 99% of the rich guys I grew up and went to school with in Alabama. They all have that borderline tarded look that comes as a result of a handful of rich families inbreeding to try to keep their land and money and they all dress the same way. Most of them have names like BJ, TJ, RJ, or something with a J behind it. View Quote Same things with the names too |
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Robbery doesn't work as an analogy, because people don't consent to be robbed. People DO hook up and have sex, willingly, all the time, with what amount to strangers. People have sex, and people rape/get raped. The ONLY difference is consent, and the ONLY way to decide if there was consent is "what would a reasonable person in that situation think?" Therefore, there has to be unequivocal words or action that communicate that there is no consent. View Quote |
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Alabama is corrupt as fuck. I went to high school with a rich kid who was driving drunk, killed a woman, was advised by his family lawyer to leave the scene of the accident and go home and sober up, and got six months probation for involuntary manslaughter which was later expunged from his record. Another guy left two children to burn to death at his hunting camp while he was parking his H2 away from the flames so it wouldn't get damaged, criminal and civil suits for a gross negligence or dismissed against him despite the fact there was a witness testimony that he had left the stove running and started the fire while he was blackout drunk. Honestly, I have a bunch of these stories. View Quote |
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I would agree with that, if it's "you are found to be LYING." Just because someone did a crime, doesn't mean they'll be convicted. It's a pretty high standard to live up to—to file a complaint with 100% certainty that there will be a conviction, and if you're wrong, you end up footing the bill or going to jail. How would you like that to be the standard for filing a complaint about a theft or some sort of assault? If it turns out the accused is not convicted, the victim goes to jail instead? Uh, no. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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QFMFT Femnazis want "guilty until proven innocent without a doubt". I say "you bring up rape charges and lose, you get to pay the bills and/or serve time". That aughta cut down on the fake rape cases How would you like that to be the standard for filing a complaint about a theft or some sort of assault? If it turns out the accused is not convicted, the victim goes to jail instead? Uh, no. |
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