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Posted: 4/21/2017 11:47:00 AM EDT
“Colorado may not presume a person, adjudged guilty of no crime, nonetheless guilty enough for monetary exactions,” Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg wrote for the majority.
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No, for those just reading the summary, this doesn't strike down civil forfeiture without criminal convictions, but it sure provides a strong precedent that seizing assets/money from people who haven't been found guilty of a crime is not going to fly if it comes to the court again. Gorsuch didn't participate because the case pre-dates him, but Thomas was the only dissenting justice.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/19/us/politics/supreme-court-colorado-law-fines-exonerated.html
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 11:48:23 AM EDT
[#1]
So I agree with RBG on something?
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 11:48:38 AM EDT
[#2]
Good, civil asset forfeiture is absolute bullshit
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 11:50:10 AM EDT
[#3]
In before civil asset forfeiture justifications
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 11:50:14 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
So I agree with RBG on something?
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Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


I should clarify, I do NOT support asset forfeiture without a conviction showing the items were gained through the criminal enterprise.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 11:51:08 AM EDT
[#5]
It should die.  4th Amendment stuff about secure in his property and due process.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 11:51:09 AM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:
So I agree with RBG on something?
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Right? Seems the old hag did something useful before giving up the ghost.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 11:52:02 AM EDT
[#7]
Why did Thomas dissent?
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 11:53:02 AM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
So I agree with RBG on something?
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Shocks me as well! 
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 11:53:41 AM EDT
[#9]
Civil Asset Forfeiture is a third world dictatorship concept. It has absolutely no place in a free and civilized country.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 11:58:34 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:
Why did Thomas dissent?
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Quoted:
Why did Thomas dissent?
From the decision:

JUSTICE THOMAS, dissenting. The majority and concurring opinions debate whether the procedural due process framework of Mathews v. Eldridge, 424 U. S. 319 (1976), or that of Medina v. California, 505 U. S. 437 (1992), governs the question before us. But both opinions bypass the most important question in these cases: whether petitioners can show a substantive entitlement to a return of the money they paid pursuant to criminal convictions that were later reversed or vacated. The Court assumes, without reference to either state or federal law, that defendants whose convictions have been reversed have a substantive right to any money exacted on the basis of those convictions. By doing so, the Court assumes away the real issue in these cases. As the parties have agreed, the existence of Colorado’s obligation to provide particular procedures depends on whether petitioners have a substantive entitlement to the money. Colorado concedes that “if [petitioners] have a present entitlement” to the money—that is, if “it is their property”—“then due process requires [the State to accord] them some procedure to get it back.” Tr. of Oral Arg. 52. And Colorado acknowledges that the procedural hurdles it could impose before returning the money “would be fairly minimal,” id., at 51, because petitioners would need to prove only that their convictions had been reversed and that they had paid a certain sum of money, see ibid. Similarly, petitioners concede that if defendants in their position do not have a substantive right to recover the money—that is, if the money belongs to the State—then Colorado need not “provide any procedure to give it back.” Id., at 53. If defendants in their position have no entitlement to the money they paid pursuant to their reversed convictions, there would be nothing to adjudicate. In light of these concessions, I can see no justification for the Court’s decision to address the procedures for adjudicating a substantive entitlement while failing to determine whether a substantive entitlement exists in the first place. In my view, petitioners have not demonstrated that defendants whose convictions have been reversed possess a substantive entitlement, under either state law or the Constitution, to recover money they paid to the State pursuant to their convictions. Accordingly, I cannot agree with the Court’s decision to reverse the judgments of the Colorado Supreme Court.

The Fourteenth Amendment provides that no State shall “deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.” U. S. Const., Amdt. 14, §1 (emphasis added).1 To show that Colorado has violated the Constitution’s procedural guarantees, as relevant here, petitioners must first establish that they have been deprived of a protected property interest. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U. S. 748, 756 (2005) (“The procedural component of the Due Process Clause does not protect everything that might be described as a benefit: To have a property interest in a benefit, a person clearly must have . . . a legitimate claim of entitlement to it” (internal quotation marks omitted)). “Because the Constitution protects rather than creates property interests, the existence of a property interest is determined by reference to ‘existing rules or understandings that stem from an independent source such as state law.’” Phillips v. Washington Legal Foundation, 524 U. S. 156, 164 (1998) (quoting Board of Regents of State Colleges v. Roth, 408 U. S. 564, 577 (1972)). Petitioners undoubtedly have an “interest in regaining the money they paid to Colorado.” Ante, at 6. But to succeed on their procedural due process claim, petitioners must first point to a recognized property interest in that money, under state or federal law, within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment.

The parties dispute whether, under Colorado law, the petitioners or the State have a property interest in the money paid by petitioners pursuant to their convictions. Petitioners contend that the money remains their property under state law. Reply Brief 1–3; see also Tr. of Oral Arg. 52–54. Colorado counters that when petitioners paid the money pursuant to their convictions, the costs and fees became property of the State and the restitution became property of the victims. See id., at 28–30; Brief for Respondent 41. The key premise of the Colorado Supreme Court’s holdings in these cases is that moneys lawfully exacted pursuant to a valid conviction become public funds (or the victims’ money) under Colorado law. The Colorado Supreme Court explained in petitioner Shannon Nelson’s case that “the trial court properly ordered [her] to pay costs, fees, and restitution pursuant to valid statutes” and that “the court correctly distributed th[ose] funds to victims and public funds, as ordered by the statutes.” 362 P. 3d 1070, 1076 (2015) (emphasis added); accord, 364 P. 3d 866, 868– 870 (2016) (applying the same analysis to petitioner Louis Madden’s case). The Colorado Supreme Court further noted that, “[o]nce the state disburses restitution to the victims, the state no longer controls that money.” 362 P. 3d, at 1077, n. 4. The Colorado Supreme Court explained that “Colorado’s constitution protects” the Colorado Legislature’s “control over public money,” and thus a “court may authorize refunds from public funds only pursuant to statutory authority.” Id., at 1076–1077. The Exoneration Act, the Colorado Supreme Court held, provides the only statutory authority for refunding costs, fees, and restitution when a defendant’s conviction is overturned. Id., at 1077–1078. Because petitioners had not sought a refund under the Exoneration Act, “the trial court lacked the authority to order a refund of Nelson’s costs, fees, and restitution.” Id., at 1078; 364 P. 3d, at 867. At no point in this litigation have petitioners attempted to demonstrate that they satisfy the requirements of the Exoneration Act. Under the Act, Colorado recognizes a substantive entitlement to the kind of property at issue in these cases only if, among other things, the defendant can prove that he is “actually innocent.”2 Colo. Rev. Stat.§§13–65–101, 13–65–102 (2016). It is the Exoneration Act alone which defines the scope of the substantive entitlement. This Court has interpreted the Due Process Clause to require that the States provide certain procedures, such as notice and a hearing, by which an individual can prove a substantive entitlement to (or defend against a deprivation of) property. But the Clause, properly understood, has nothing to say about the existence or scope of the substantive entitlement itself. See Part I–B, infra. If petitioners want this Court to rewrite the contours of the substantive entitlement contained in the Exoneration Act, they err in invoking procedural due process. See Reply Brief 1–2 (“Our argument sounds in procedural due process”). The majority responds by asserting, without citing any state law, that Colorado “had no legal right to retain [petitioners’] money” once their convictions were invalidated. Ante, at 8, n. 11. If this were true as a matter of state law, then certain provisions of the Exoneration Act— which require the State to return costs, fees, and restitution only in limited circumstances following a conviction’s reversal—would be superfluous. Thus, to the extent the majority implicitly suggests that petitioners have a statelaw right to an automatic refund (a point about which the majority is entirely unclear), it is plainly incorrect.

Because defendants in petitioners’ position do not have a substantive right to recover the money they paid to Colorado under state law, petitioners’ asserted right to an automatic refund must arise, if at all, from the Due Process Clause itself. But the Due Process Clause confers no substantive rights. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U. S. 742, 811 (2010) (THOMAS, J., concurring in part and concurring in judgment) (“The notion that a constitutional provision that guarantees only ‘process’ before a person is deprived of life, liberty, or property could define the substance of those rights strains credulity for even the most casual user of words”). And, in any event, petitioners appear to disavow any substantive due process right to a return of the funds they paid. See Reply Brief 1–2; Tr. of Oral Arg. 18– 19. In the absence of any property right under state law (apart from the right provided by the Exoneration Act, which petitioners decline to invoke), Colorado’s refusal to return the money is not a “depriv[ation]” of “property” within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. Colorado is therefore not required to provide any process at all for the return of that money.

No one disputes that if petitioners had never been convicted, Colorado could not have required them to pay the money at issue. And no one disputes that Colorado cannot require petitioners to pay any additional costs, fees, or restitution now that their convictions have been invalidated. It does not follow, however, that petitioners have a property right in the money they paid pursuant to their then-valid convictions, which now belongs to the State and the victims under Colorado law. The Court today announces that petitioners have a right to an automatic refund because the State has “no legal right” to that money. Ante, at 8, n. 11. But, intuitive and rhetorical appeal aside, it does not seriously attempt to ground that conclusion in state or federal law. If petitioners’ supposed right to an automatic refund arises under Colorado law, then the Colorado Supreme Court remains free on remand to clarify whether that right in fact exists. If it arises under substantive due process, then the Court’s procedural due process analysis misses the point. I respectfully dissent.
As best I can tell, he seems to think that it's not their money anymore...?
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:00:15 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
Good, civil asset forfeiture is absolute bullshit
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Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:01:35 PM EDT
[#12]
If they wait for a conviction, the criminals involved will simply hide their assets
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:02:01 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
If they wait for a conviction, the criminals involved will simply hide their assets
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lol
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:02:50 PM EDT
[#14]
More is lost to UNCONVICTED "Civil Asset Forfeiture" now than is lost to all burglaries/robberies combined.

Linkages

We has met the enemy...and they IS us. - Pogo

Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:09:33 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
If they wait for a conviction, the criminals involved will simply hide their assets
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I'm not sure I care about that.

But even if I did, you shouldn't be able to seize a thing without starting a criminal case at the same time, and if the criminal case fails, the assets should be automatically restored.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:12:57 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
Good, civil asset forfeiture is absolute bullshit
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This.

Any official including the cop that takes the money are nothing but thieves.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:13:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
More is lost to UNCONVICTED "Civil Asset Forfeiture" now than is lost to all burglaries/robberies combined.

Linkages

We has met the enemy...and they IS us. - Pogo

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/11/forf.png&w=1484
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You do realize that there is a distinction between civil asset forfeiture and criminal asset forfeiture, and that you chart makes no such distinction?

Civil asset forfeiture needs to die in a fire.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:14:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
More is lost to UNCONVICTED "Civil Asset Forfeiture" now than is lost to all burglaries/robberies combined.

Linkages

We has met the enemy...and they IS us. - Pogo

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/11/forf.png&w=1484
View Quote
It would be interesting to see what amount of CAF occurred where no/minor/unrelated charges were filed, along with the amount where charges were filed but convictions were not obtained.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:14:54 PM EDT
[#19]
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:15:22 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
“Colorado may not presume a person, adjudged guilty of no crime, nonetheless guilty enough for monetary exactions,” Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg wrote for the majority.
View Quote
No, for those just reading the summary, this doesn't strike down civil forfeiture without criminal convictions, but it sure provides a strong precedent that seizing assets/money from people who haven't been found guilty of a crime is not going to fly if it comes to the court again. Gorsuch didn't participate because the case pre-dates him, but Thomas was the only dissenting justice.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/19/us/politics/supreme-court-colorado-law-fines-exonerated.html
View Quote

I'm not sure it does. The fines and restitution they were forced to pay was based on the convictions. Once those convictions went away so did the fine.  

Seizure isnt tied to convictions. So an overturned conviction doesn't change anything. 
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:15:38 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
If they wait for a conviction, the criminals involved will simply hide their assets
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I don't care; I'd rather 10 guilty benefit than 1 innocent be damaged.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:16:43 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
If they wait for a conviction, the criminals involved will simply hide their assets
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Which is a risk worth taking in light of the tendency of agencies to grab everything and then force citizens to prove the innocence of their property.  Theft is theft, under colour of law or not.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:16:56 PM EDT
[#23]
After reading the opinion, this absolutely says that states CANNOT keep money if a person is not guilty. Civil forfeiture is done.


I am disappointed with Thomas' dissent.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:18:55 PM EDT
[#24]
take the money administratively at first or after conviction, IT DOESNT MATTER, the state now can no longer keep it without a conviction.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:19:50 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I'm not sure I care about that.

But even if I did, you shouldn't be able to seize a thing without starting a criminal case at the same time, and if the criminal case fails, the assets should be automatically restored.
View Quote
The whole point of asset forfeiture is to hurt their criminal in terms of benefiting from their criminal activities. if you wait to seize their ill gotten gains, they'll hide those assets.
So yeah, I do care.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:20:54 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The whole point of asset forfeiture is to hurt their criminal in terms of benefiting from their criminal activities. if you wait to seize their ill gotten gains, they'll hide those assets.
So yeah, I do care.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

I'm not sure I care about that.

But even if I did, you shouldn't be able to seize a thing without starting a criminal case at the same time, and if the criminal case fails, the assets should be automatically restored.
The whole point of asset forfeiture is to hurt their criminal in terms of benefiting from their criminal activities. if you wait to seize their ill gotten gains, they'll hide those assets.
So yeah, I do care.
So seize it upon indictment or as evidence. If the charges are dropped or the suspect is exonerated, assets returned.

No problem. Then we still keep that whole "free country" thing going a little longer and we don't end up doing more damage to innocent people than we do "criminals". Civil asset forfeiture is clearly not hurting criminals in the way you want them to as we're doing it now, considering the average seizure is like $500.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:22:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


From the decision:



As best I can tell, he seems to think that it's not their money anymore...?
View Quote
That's what it looks like.  They have no standing to ask for it back, because once it's been taken it no longer belongs to them.  I respectfully disagree with that assessment.

ETA:  I would think, in a criminal asset forfeiture situation, seizing assets and holding them in escrow until the trial/appeals have been completed would not be unreasonable, provided that there is actually a criminal charge involved.  Civil asset forfeiture is heinous and needs to go immediately.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:22:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:27:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:30:49 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


I should clarify, I do NOT support asset forfeiture without a conviction showing the items were gained through the criminal enterprise.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
So I agree with RBG on something?
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


I should clarify, I do NOT support asset forfeiture without a conviction showing the items were gained through the criminal enterprise.
Well said and I agree; although seizure resulting from a formal felony indictment is okay to me, provided those assets are held in trust and immediately returned if the court determines not guilty or reduces the charge to a misdemeanor.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:31:49 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:
If they wait for a conviction, the criminals involved will simply hide their assets
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lol
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:32:35 PM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:


From the decision:



As best I can tell, he seems to think that it's not their money anymore...?
View Quote
I read it like this:

1. The law required or permitted the fine at the time it was ordered and paid.

2. The fine was therefore lawfully paid over to the state.

3. It was only later that the conviction was (for whatever reason) overturned.

4. The overturning of the conviction does not retroactively render the order for payment unlawful.

5. Because the fine was lawful when  paid, the D has no lawful right to the fine.

YMMV.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:33:41 PM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
In before civil asset forfeiture justifications
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The "gotta get dem dopers" crowd.

Civil asset forfeiture is something 3rd world dictators would do, has no place in our country.

Criminal asset forfeiture upon conviction by a jury and proof existing that said asset was procured with proceeds from said criminal enterprise should only be on a case by case basis.
When you have guys caught with a $20 bag of weed or getting a BJ from a hooker losing a $40,000 car, the punishment does not fit the crime.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:34:01 PM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:
If they wait for a conviction, the criminals involved will simply hide their assets
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To borrow a phrase:


Oh well.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:35:21 PM EDT
[#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The whole point of asset forfeiture is to hurt their criminal in terms of benefiting from their criminal activities. if you wait to seize their ill gotten gains, they'll hide those assets.
So yeah, I do care.
View Quote
I'm glad that all but 1 of the justices disagree with you.

Freedom be hard yo!

Poor investigators having to do I don't know, investigating instead of outright theft before convictions.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:39:08 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:
In before civil asset forfeiture justifications
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I don't think anyone here will justify or be in favor of this.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:39:27 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The "gotta get dem dopers" crowd.

Civil asset forfeiture is something 3rd world dictators would do, has no place in our country.

Criminal asset forfeiture upon conviction by a jury and proof existing that said asset was procured with proceeds from said criminal enterprise should only be on a case by case basis.
When you have guys caught with a $20 bag of weed or getting a BJ from a hooker losing a $40,000 car, the punishment does not fit the crime.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
In before civil asset forfeiture justifications
The "gotta get dem dopers" crowd.

Civil asset forfeiture is something 3rd world dictators would do, has no place in our country.

Criminal asset forfeiture upon conviction by a jury and proof existing that said asset was procured with proceeds from said criminal enterprise should only be on a case by case basis.
When you have guys caught with a $20 bag of weed or getting a BJ from a hooker losing a $40,000 car, the punishment does not fit the crime.
This.

Hopefully, this will stop liberal PD's from pulling a roach motel whenever a firearm is used in self-defense and the defendant is either not charged, or charges are dropped/beaten.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:43:32 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:
If they wait for a conviction, the criminals involved will simply hide their assets
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It's an imperfect world.  Better some criminals benefit than our liberties are further eroded.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:46:55 PM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:
Civil Asset Forfeiture is a third world dictatorship concept. It has absolutely no place in a free and civilized country.
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This. No conviction, no seizure.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:46:58 PM EDT
[#40]
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Quoted:
In before civil asset forfeiture justifications
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So now crime WILL pay....



Edit: Oh, well. No more deals cut "surrender the profit from that felony you committed through ignorance and have charges dropped". Now it's "you fucked up by mistake, sorry you're going to prison, no deals."
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:47:34 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So I agree with RBG on something?
View Quote
I feel dirty 
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:47:42 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Civil Asset Forfeiture is a third world dictatorship concept. It has absolutely no place in a free and civilized country.
View Quote
It goes hand in hand with the law and order at any cost crowds, the march of the police state shall not be slowed
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:48:49 PM EDT
[#43]
Good!
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:50:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Fuck CAF, and double fuck anybody that supports it.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:50:43 PM EDT
[#45]
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Quoted:
So now crime WILL pay....
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View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
In before civil asset forfeiture justifications
So now crime WILL pay....
Get a conviction and show the assets were ill gotten gains then seize away.

The idea of needing to prove your innocence never should have been seen as constitutional.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:52:57 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Get a conviction and show the assets were ill gotten gains then seize away.

The idea of needing to prove your innocence never should have been seen as constitutional.
View Quote
There shouldn't be ANY plea bargains, either. OR dropping or reducing charges. Right?
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:53:27 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The whole point of asset forfeiture is to hurt their criminal in terms of benefiting from their criminal activities. if you wait to seize their ill gotten gains, they'll hide those assets.
So yeah, I do care.
View Quote
The whole point of asset forfeiture is to create additional revenue for the police and government. It's theft, plain and simple. 
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:56:53 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Get a conviction and show the assets were ill gotten gains then seize away.

The idea of needing to prove your innocence never should have been seen as constitutional.
View Quote
You have trouble reading. Civil forfeiture is often used to take the profitability out of criminal activity, AND as a way for people who committed crimes by mistake (didn't realize what they did was outside the law) to surrender the profits in exchange for dropping of charges. Contrary to the LIE a lot of people here believe, most civil forfeiture is voluntary, and part of an agreement.
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 12:59:15 PM EDT
[#49]
as it should civil asset forfeiture is a disgusting unconstitutional practice.  no one should be deprived of property without due process.   if someone is a drug dealer convict them then confiscate their stuff
Link Posted: 4/21/2017 1:03:41 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There shouldn't be ANY plea bargains, either. OR dropping or reducing charges. Right?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Get a conviction and show the assets were ill gotten gains then seize away.

The idea of needing to prove your innocence never should have been seen as constitutional.
There shouldn't be ANY plea bargains, either. OR dropping or reducing charges. Right?
There certainly shouldn't be any straw man arguments.  
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