2000 vintage Kitamura Mycenter4.  Machine has kind of been a PITA for me since I've gotten it.  I've since also purchased a smaller Mycenter 3xi.  Both have pallet changers.

Anyway - my spindle smoked today on the My4.  I don't know yet what happened for sure, my guess a lubrication problem.  We did have a power failure today for 2 hours where the shop power went out, but I don't see how that could have caused a mechanical failure..  However there were no oil alarms present when it happened.

It was running a small endmill engraving aluminum at 10krpm.. lower bearings just fucking melted... it's a goner.

I am pretty sick of dealing with this machine - so - in your opinion, would you repair it, or would you look for something else - maybe a new machine?  I'd get rid of this, my My3 and my CNC turning center - trade in or sell as-is to put toward a good new machine.

Maybe a Haas VF3 or something a bit less expensive.  I don't run high volume production.  I do run steel a lot, but I don't need to run it at 4000ipm either... So i might be able to live with linear ways.  Both Kiti's are boxed way machines... Both Kit's are going to need an X ballscrew soon...and now the My4 spindle is toast...

Fix it or get rid of all that bullshit for a new machine that runs?

Update: 03/25/17
Okuma Genos M560V due in end of March

Unless you absolutely need something higher performance, Haas is really fucking tough to beat for the money.

I'd send that turd down the fucking road..... The ones I've been around have all had issues. Whether from neglect, or otherwise.

If you're doing this to make money then buy a new machine. I messed with a mill with aHeidenhain TCN145 control for 2 years. I cost way more fixing once a month the to just go buy a new Haas.  It really depends on the same old questions. Can you afford it? Do you really need it?

ETA: I have heard that the new Haas control kind of sucks. Also on ~ 2006 and older Haas machines if the processor board fails they're gonna rape you for a new one. Guess how I know That said Haas service is great. And they will help you to diagnose and even fix the machine yourself .

Unless you've got the homeboy hook up on salvage parts and know how to replace all that stuff by yourself and got plenty of lead time to turn out parts whenever you feel like it then I would definitely opt for something a little bit more reliable and something less to worry about.

Your time should be spent quoting and filling orders shipping billing and sitting back and raking in the cash, which actually never happens when you're a machinist.

Get a Haas.

We have a VF-3 SS, 2 VF-2 SS's and a DT-1. They've been pretty good machines for the most part.

I was was chief, cook and bottle washer at my little shop. I did pretty good considering I wore many hats. I didn't have any employees so I could work whatever hours I wanted to. It was great

Good advice would be to ditch this place and go ask on Practical Machinist.

You might get more money for them on the private market. Pics of lathe?

Pretty much this.

Have to say I have a hard time fathoming going from a Kit to a Haas, feels like going backwards. Even with the problems we had on one of our 3XGs at a previous shop, I'd keep it over a VF pretty much any day. But if the numbers work....

Haas are not great machines if you run steel. They aren't that much cheaper than a good machine if you option them the same...they aren't bad machines just light duty compared to others. Snag a Hardinge quest v1000. Vf3 size and cost...way better machine. Doosan makes nice mills. Hurco..nice mills. Okuma, awesome mills but pricey. 

Spindle lost lube for sure. Oil lube or grease? I've lost grease spindles due to seal failure and coolant intrusion stripping out the grease.  Oil lines get plugged after years, don't replace that spindle unless you determine why it failed.  Northland tool is great at rebuilding spindles. They did a Hardinge lathe spindle for me...worked great, still running its ass off. 

Yeah I realize there are machining forums but it's really hard to beat the response time and honestly the info here on gd

Good info thank you.  I'm going to investigate this a bit further before deciding my next move.  I am pretty sick of dealing with these older machines.  Might check out a new Kiti.  Their lower priced machines have linear ways but I think for what I do those will work fine.

Haas isn't bad, but definitely not the best answer for steel. Be aware that Haas is basically a 5-7 year machine. You're money ahead to get a stripped down new one given the problems you're likely to encounter with a used one that was rode hard and put away wet.

You'd be amazed how often people that are knowledgeable about machine tools are into guns.   

You're going to get the same info at PM. Haas are ok but Gene is probably fucking you in the value department.  There are better machines for the money. But if you find a deal on a used one...they will get you by. If you've never used a really nice, fast,  powerful rigid mill you won't notice. 

Box ways have advantages for sure, rigid with good vibration dampening.  Linear guides can be just as rigid if they are large enough and have enough trucks. There are ball guides and roller guides,  roller guides are considered superior and are usually found on larger machines,  but there are lots of opinions. 

Don't let guideways scare you away from a machine, it's all about the details of the construction.  I will say that you will notice a difference between cutting steel on a good box way machine and a VF Haas. 

I ran a trio of vf3's for several years, all 6061 and 7075 never ran steel in them. I liked them a lot, but they are definitely light duty machines. The only real issues I remember were tool changer related. One of them did have to have the spindle replaced but it was more than 10 years old, and had ran production work Mon-Sat for 8-12hrs a day for its entire life.

Their controllers were one of my favorites that I've ever used, and I've used theirs, several generalizations of Mazatrol, Fanuc, Siemens. Haas makes some very user friendly machines

My company bought a Brother mill.

I've always been a Fanuc guy but I have an Okuma now...OSP is badass. 

I just really got comfortable w/ the Fanuc control..  I am not a huge fan of it - definitely not super user friendly.  I've not tried Okuma but know guys who really like them.

Right now I am going to try and work with my local Kiti dealer to trade in this Mycenter4 and my Mycenter 3xi machines toward a new Kiti..  Hopefully it's the right decision.  I am not a high production house, but when I need a machine, I need it to work.
After reading here it confirms what I've heard from others - going with a Haas machine for the steel I need to run might be a step backward.  I am used to this Kiti iron and boxed ways, which makes very nice cuts on steel..  I would hate to whoop on a lesser machine to get the same quality, if even possible.  If I am going to spend $80k, another $20k for something that makes more sense is only common sense at that point.

I get your sentiment, but go post your Q's in the CNC machining section of PM.  Their knowledge base on this topic is much much deeper.

I miss running a VF3. Great little machines. 12 hours a day five days a week for 3 years without a single issue.

Okuma is going to be the best for hard metals.  None of the others I've seen are nearly as rigid in relationship to their size.   And as others have said OSP is very intuitive IMO.

I've heard Haas has come a long way in the last few years, but in high production aerospace/defense they are still considered throw away machines by the people I talk to.  

At the last IMTS I got the vibe they are more about flash and "features" than durabilty.  

As others have said Okuma stuff holds up abuse, but is very expensive.  

I have no first hand Kit experience.
You said it has box ways, the Haas does not, and the Haas spindle might be much lighter as well.
Our machinists are overcoming these limitations machining steel in a VF9 with tooling.

Maybe you already have first hand knowledge of the VF3 capabilities and limitations.  If not, just make sure you demo several of your parts before buying.

Okuma mills are very nice. Love mine.  I can't work it hard enough. I have literally never seen more than 70% spindle load, and that was helical feed milling a bore in 304 at several hundred Ipm. Moving about 4 lbs of 304 per minute.  A rigid machine with 30 horse is pretty nice. 15k spindle and 1200 Ipm feeds with a control and hi-cut pro that keeps the motion under control and accurate. Aluminum basically vanishes in an Okuma. Go as fast as your workholding will allow. You won't run out of speed, power or stability. 

If you're in the market for an Okuma, March is deal making time for them. I got a smoking deal on my dual column 560. They have jacked the price on those since I got mine but you can get them for under list. 

More than a Haas but an awesome machine, so it's still a value. 

I agree with your assessment, forget Haas and stick with solid Japanese iron. Kitamura's are good machines, if you have the resources a new one would be a much better choice than anything Haas makes.

The only linear/roller way machine that I have is a Mori Seiki, it is a solid performer in steel but not as rigid as my box way machines. That machine is wicked accurate though but came with a high price tag.

I love all 6 of my HAAS machines. Vf 4. 2 vf2 ss. Sl30 and 2 UMC750 Machines. That said, they are really not in the same league as a Mori or a Makino. Not the same price tag either i also have a Makino A61. There is no comparison.

What a lot of shops don't do on their CNC purchases is take in to account the Re-saleability of their machines.  
Okuma's are great machines (NOT the Genos models. those are about the same if not lighter as the Haas rigidity) but if you decide to go a different route in 4 years because your work is changing you will be shocked  at what you will get offered for it.
Only Okuma shops will consider it because of their control.  almost all shops know Fanuc.
I cant tell you how many Okuma's I purchased from shops who bought one only to sell it a couple years later because they had no one to run it properly
also, you may think you are getting a great 70k deal on an off-brand versus 100k for Japanese but when you go to sell it in 5 yrs.you will get offered 20-25k versus 55k ish which eats the savings right up and you will get better production along the way.

FYI, you will probably get offered nothing for the 2x and maybe 7.5-10k for the 3x as they sit.  if you put 16k in the spindle on the 2xi you will still only get about 7.5k on trade so I wouldn't do that if you are going to get a new CNC.

I have 2 vf5 a vf10 and 4 vf3 at the shop I work and only have had minor repairs.

Our new okumas have had over 140k in repairs for spindle and ball screw and filters.

Lots of knowlege on PM but they can be a prickly bunch at times

I would do everything in my power that I could to NOT get a Haas... They are not a long term machine, and you WILL be repairing them.


I would be looking at a Makino PS-95. It will speed up production by 20% over the Haas.

I am going to be taking a very serious look at a 2011 Okuma Genos M560V.  Low hour machine with some nice options- probe, chip blaster, and like 100 tool holders.  I've always heard very good things about these machines.
Tomorrow the Doosan rep is visiting, that is going to be my 2nd very serious consideration.  Kitamura might be just a bit too expensive, and Haas might not be the right machine for me.  I'll post updates if anyone is interested.

Definitely curious to see what you end up doing.

Ive only cut steel in Haas mills (A2 D2 4140). Never a problem. The vf2's are a bit less rigid than a vf3.

I ran a kitamura 4 axis horizontal for 3 years. Dual ball screws each axis. Very fast and rigid machine. But repairs were very expensive. Ball screw went out after 2 years for no aparent reason.

2.5 years on a mazak variaxis. Great machine. Crashed it one time only, Service sucks when out of warranty. Took them 2 weeks and 10k $ to align the machine after a z axis crash. But i would love to own one. Just very expensive.

My brother bought a hass st10 3 years ago, its been great so far. We are buying a vf3 or umc 750 next. I would not hesitate buying a haas.

Yep I found that out today.

I fully recommend Haas machines. I run a machine shop that has Mori Seiki , Okuma, Cincinnati, Fadal, and Haas mills. Haas is hard to beat for the money. I have a Vf8 50t, VF5 5axis, 2 VF6SS 4axis, and a UMC750. I cut aerospace parts... everything from aluminum, heat treated stainless 13-8/15-5 /17-4, 6al4v ti, heat treated chromoly steels. Anyone who says Haas machines don't do it well is wrong. It's all about the programming and cutters

 get rid of the kit 


your just tossing good money at bad if you want to fix it... IF you can...   

time to move forward if your capital will allow it.... I'm in a similar boat but I'm in no rush... time is  luxury for me right now 



and PM can be a bitch to deal with some of the uppity assholes there 

Apply the same toolpath and tools to a real machine and go faster. Purchase price is only part of the value. 

Have said 'real machines', they do great also

I own a 2015 m560. Badass mill. Don't listen to anyone who says the M560 isn't better than a Haas because it's a Genos. The M560 is a standard option version of the MB56. Which is Okumas premium guideway vertical machine.  The OSP 300 (200 on a 2011) is crazy easy to run. Very similar gcode to Fanuc, it has all options except super nurbs which is an amazing option but costs 20k, it's not like Haas where every little control option is a line item.  

The 560 is a dual column machine where Y is on the table and x and Z are up on the head. This gives the spindle very little cantaliver or over hang from the actual casting. Unlike a c frame vmc where the longer the y is, the more overhang the spindle has. The Okuma is incredibly rigid and powerful. Mine has a 15k 30hp spindle. Real hp...not Haas power. Hell the servos for each axis are 5.5 hp each. 16k lbs, cat40 big plus, best thermal comp in the business....awesome machine.  It's kind of like a nice horizontal mill on it's side. In fact the 15k 30hp dual wound direct drive spindle in the same one they use on the horizontals 

Doosan makes a solid mill as well, and they run Fanuc as does Makino, the ps95 is also a very nice mill. They are all so much more machine than a Haas is not funny. 

You can't honestly say that an Okuma or makino aren't better machines than any Haas. 

I'm not saying Haas hasn't made a lot of shops lots of money..they have but someone coming from a boxway kit isn't going to be impressed with a vf2. 

PM is really no better than GD - I have see some stupid advice on there.

I would pull the spindle cartridge & get it out to Northland Tool in NH.  The machine is scrap value with a locked up spindle.  Trade it or use it.

How much floor space do you have?

We're getting rid of the rest of our Matsuras and replacing them with Haas machines.  After that we'll let much be at 80%/20% or 90%/10% Haas to Mori.  

Our biggest issue is down time.  Haas can replace a spindle and have us back up and running in about 6 hours vs the Mori and Matsura machines that will be down for a week+.

Northland are good people. Did you ever meet Given, outside sales...good dude. 

Is a VF2ss going to bury a 2" plunge cutter and hog away? Probably not. It will however run the hell out of light and fast using higher sfm, lower radial, deeper axial cutting. Works great for me

Plenty.  I could keep it and fix it later.  I don't know though - I've got a bad taste in my mouth now with the thing.  Lol.  I'd be happier to see it go TBH.  


As for the other commets:
1.) I am sure a Haas can do the job, and I haven't 100% ruled them out yet.  There are a few things I like about the Haas and Doosan machines - one being the grease on the ways instead of way lube oil - easier to keep the coolant from growing aids.
2.) I am moving from a few previous boxed way machines...  My first was a Fadal 4020.. Some people hate them - but I bought that thing at auction sight unseen for $8500.  I plugged it in and it ran for 8 years without any problems.  I learned how to machine with it.  I broke a lot of carbide, crashed it a lot, and it kept on trucking.  I added a 4th axis, then sold it for $10k because I was pissed that a drive card went bad.  That was a bad decision because right after is when I bought this Kiti.  I didn't do a good job inspecting it, and I bought a fucking turd.  A year later I added a Mycenter3xi - bought it extremely cheap, and havent even used it yet...  However I am afraid to use it now because I'd honestly like to have something worth selling to put down on a good machine.
3.) I don't do production machining.  I do 1-off kind of things... Really any machine that I purchase will have an easy life - and I am really considering new because I want to just have a nice tool I can go power up and use, not worry about someone elses problems...  That Okuma is new enough to still consider as new, especially considering there is about 150k worth of shit sitting there for $0.50 on the dollar...it's worth taking a serious look at.
4.) I do enough steel to want to stick with a heavy duty machine.  I realize that the Doosan isn't boxed way but it's linear roller, so it's rigid enough.  Haas - again I am sure it'll do it, and I don't have a problem with working around the fact that I cant plow like I did on the bigger iron.  I like that the Haas is in a lot of cases maybe cheaper to fix each instance, maybe more frequent, but not 5 digits if something fails.,, so I am not ruling them out completely...  But would I buy a Haas VF-3 for high $80k or a Doosan for $5k more?  I'd go for the Doosan..  

It'll be an interesting week for sure.  I am very curious to see what each of these guys come up with.  Doosan tomorrow.  I am supposed to go to the local Haas distrib on Tues but we're supposed to get a big snow storm so that could be delayed...  Local Kiti dealer is working up a proposal as we speak on a brand new Mycenter 4XiD machine and a trade-in credit for my 2x heaps... I have a feeling they're not going to get me anywhere near what I'd like, but I'd like to see what they come up with.

Few things I'd like are:
Thru spindle coolant
Probe for work and tool setting (seems price has really come down on these)
Ethernet
Chip auger or conveyor
10k spindle
Power to run a 4" face mill in mild steel, rigidity to run an Iscar H490 for roughing and side cutting
Less than $100k for a brand new machine and $20k for my 2 pieces on a trade as they sit.

Good luck mbx5! Keep us posted!

Went well with Doosan today.  Impressive machine.  Priced ok... Prob 5-10 more than a Haas, but the linear rollers are more what I need....also I am used to the Fanuc control...  I am leaning toward the Doosan DNM 5700 with a probe and thru spindle coolant, chip conveyor....

Kitamura is priced $20k higher and honestly I don't think it's any better of a machine....also they switched to a Mitsubishi control so there's a learning curve.

I am meeting with Okuma Wed - they claim they've got a show room demo that they might be able to do in the 100 range... which I'd almost seriously consider even though I'd have a new control to learn...

We can't plow a 4" face mill through steel in our VF9.  With different tooling choices and programming methods we can get similar overall material removal rates with good surface finish.
If Haas makes it to the final cut be sure to have them demo a couple of your parts.

yup.

If you aren't programming HSM toolpaths for radial chip thinning with a HAAS, then you're doing it wrong.