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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:27:41 PM EDT
[#1]
if you were starving, how easily would you give up your last $5?
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:28:27 PM EDT
[#2]
Derp at 2000% and they are dropping prices: https://silencerco.com/rebate-promo/
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:30:41 PM EDT
[#3]
$200 of free gear...
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:30:45 PM EDT
[#4]
It's not the price it's the paperwork & the wait.
My first m4-2000 cost me $950. Now you can get them for $550. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:31:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Price in-elasticity.
The cost of the item isn't that relevant to purchase decisions because of the $200 tax and very long wait. If those barriers to free market competition were removed we would have a very robust and fair market for suppressors where the balance of supply and demand would affect the situation. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:31:23 PM EDT
[#6]
A 2000% Profit Margin?
Jesus Christ, SilencerCo is doing it wrong. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:37:09 PM EDT
[#7]
GD, the website that believes inconel, monel, titanium and 17-4 cost $1 per pound and machining is free. If you believe you can make an $850 product for $42.50 why on earth would you not immediately sell all your worldly possessions and buy whatever equipment you think you need to do this?
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:37:34 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:I can't say I feel sorry for the manufacturers if they go out of business while keeping their prices at levels only rich people can afford. Also, I wasn't aware $400-1000 is only attainable by "rich people". The average American consumer spends more on coffee in a year. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:38:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A 2000% Profit Margin? Jesus Christ, SilencerCo is doing it wrong. Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:39:37 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Everyone knows that 95% of suppressors are based on a hundred year old design and the materials are not expensive to acquire or machine. (They could basically weld washers inside a pipe). The profit margin has to be around 2000%, and it really only requires one man to build many designs beginning to end. Add to that the fact that your buyers have to suffer a $200 penalty from the government, and you'd think they would cut us some slack. Can we expect prices to drop if legalization is going to take another ten years? I can't say I feel sorry for the manufacturers if they go out of business while keeping their prices at levels only rich people can afford. Even top tier manufacturers could produce affordable suppressors for the common man if they cared to do so. In fact, the quickest way to force legalizing suppressors is probably to lower the prices and quadruple sales, thereby overhelming the NFA process and normalizing suppressors in every home. Quoted because I thought '13er's wrote some dumb shit. 
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:40:30 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Derp at 2000% and they are dropping prices: https://silencerco.com/rebate-promo/ That's like 2 muzzle devices worth of "rebate". At least Q is rebating $200 off the price of cans. This is coming from a guy who owns an Omega. I love my suppressor but that rebate is a joke. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:41:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. I'll give you $75. You build me a circumferentiallly welded stainless steel and inconel can. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:41:46 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll give you $75. You build me a circumferentiallly welded stainless steel and inconel can. Its a trap, don't do it. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:42:37 PM EDT
[#14]
somebody flunked Business 101....
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:42:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
GD, the website that believes inconel, monel, titanium and 17-4 cost $1 per pound and machining is free. If you believe you can make an $850 product for $42.50 why on earth would you not immediately sell all your worldly possessions and buy whatever equipment you think you need to do this? If you're making 2000% at $850 then that material cost $0.425. Assuming you don't pay for labor. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:43:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, I wasn't aware $400-1000 is only attainable by "rich people". The average American consumer spends more on coffee in a year. A thousand dollars is more than most of us will ever spend on a new AR-15. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:44:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, I wasn't aware $400-1000 is only attainable by "rich people". The average American consumer spends more on coffee in a year. wtf kind of coffee are you drinkin!? 
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:45:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Why are machine guns so expensive? Most of them are very old designs and the raw materials don't cost that much.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:46:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. Very few cost as much as $1,500. Average price is around $800 or so, maybe a little less depending where you purchase. As far as cost go, you're pulling that completely out of your ass. You have material costs, tooling costs, the price of the electricity to keep the machines running, the cost to provide a living for a couple hundred people, taxes, your profit... then you have the dealer and distributor which each need to make money so they can keep their businesses running. Simply making up numbers off the top of your head is a terrible way to convey a point. By the way, it's literally impossible to have a 2000% margin. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:46:39 PM EDT
[#20]
Better question is why aren't they hammering Congress to pass HPA?
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:47:54 PM EDT
[#21]
I hope everyone that is bitching about silencer prices and ATF wait times have contacted their Senators and their Representative to urge them to PASS the HPA!
Edit, tsg beat me by more than a minute. 
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:48:11 PM EDT
[#22]
Having been an 07FFL/02SOT a few years ago... I can say with certainty that there's a TON of markup on cans... and most of the prices you see are flat retail/list prices.
Stocking dealer price (usually around a $10k+ buy-in) Regular dealer price (one at a time to the FFL) List price (what the average Joe pays) It's been a few years since I've bought cans... but I recall some of the cheaper .22 cans would cost me around $89 if I bought 10+ and they would fly off the shelf at $249 ea. The other thing to remember... and much of WHY there's little discount in suppressors is... they require babysitting and alot more paperwork than a regular title 1 sale. Alot more time and paperwork goes on behind the scenes than what the customer will ever see. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:48:23 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
somebody flunked Business 101.... Support them as they are supporting a short term cut in their income for the greater good of our mutual love for all things that go bang and less bang. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:48:29 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. How much do the machining centers to make the parts cost? How many employees are needed to mfg, assemble, market, handle legal aspects? How much does the mfg actually get paid by their distributors for the finished product? Never mind, you're probably right it's the vast conspiracy of the cabal of silencer manufacturer's, they're all fucking us. You should buy a grizzly manual lathe, imitation mag lite bodies from alibaba in gross and a pallet of sbc drain plugs and undercut the market, only charge 1000% markup. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:48:54 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. Ok let me help you.... Cost of CNc machines Cost of itar Cost of license Cost of sot Cost of insurance for company Cost of taxes for company Cost of benefits for employees Cost of SS for employees Cost of workers comp Cost of training Cost of material Cost of labor Cost of marketing Cost of r&d Cost of percentage on loans Shits cheap yo, now go start your business for $100 inconel and titanium cans at a major loss or go be poor somewhere else. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:49:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're making 2000% at $850 then that material cost $0.425. Assuming you don't pay for labor. I meant 20x the cost of parts. Labor is profit for the worker, who is the owner in many instances. But to be fair, the small shops aren't the ones charging that much, and the big shops do have more expenses. But you get my point. There is a massive profit margin. And don't act like the gun itself is somehow so much less complex and less difficult to make than a suppressor. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:49:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A thousand dollars is more than most of us will ever spend on a new AR-15. Define "us". Good job just taking the far end of the spectrum on that post. If you want cheap garbage suppressors, they exist. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:50:40 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're making 2000% at $850 then that material cost $0.425. Assuming you don't pay for labor. Wrong. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:53:07 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok let me help you.... Cost of CNc machines Cost of itar Cost of license Cost of sot Cost of insurance for company Cost of taxes for company Cost of benefits for employees Cost of SS for employees Cost of workers comp Cost of training Cost of material Cost of labor Cost of marketing Cost of r&d Cost of percentage on loans Shits cheap yo, now go start your business for $100 inconel and titanium cans at a major loss or go be poor somewhere else. Okay, so you're saying none of that stuff is required to make an AR-15? Because I can buy complete AR-15's all day long for $500 right now. You're telling me a pipe with washers and threeaded endcaps should cost 1.5-2.5x more than a complete AR-15? I'm pretty sure that making one rifle barrel is more complex and time consuming than making most suppressors. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:55:09 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
GD, the website that believes inconel, monel, titanium and 17-4 cost $1 per pound and machining is free. If you believe you can make an $850 product for $42.50 why on earth would you not immediately sell all your worldly possessions and buy whatever equipment you think you need to do this? Because of all the layers of Government bureaucracy. Also, the market is fairly small, and crowded. This is not rocket science. You will see prices come down, if and when, supply continues to outstrip demand. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:55:14 PM EDT
[#31]
Iconel is cheap and easy to machine?
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:56:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A 2000% Profit Margin? Jesus Christ, SilencerCo is doing it wrong. Obviously not all of them are charging that much, but many charge as much as $1,500 for one unit, and the parts probably cost them $75. If that's so far off then tell us what the real costs are. Uh, labor, taxes, facilities, machinery, R+D, other equipment, other overhead Do you have any CNC welding machines? |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:56:23 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're making 2000% at $850 then that material cost $0.425. Assuming you don't pay for labor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
GD, the website that believes inconel, monel, titanium and 17-4 cost $1 per pound and machining is free. If you believe you can make an $850 product for $42.50 why on earth would you not immediately sell all your worldly possessions and buy whatever equipment you think you need to do this? If you're making 2000% at $850 then that material cost $0.425. Assuming you don't pay for labor. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:58:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Okay, so you're saying none of that stuff is required to make an AR-15? Because I can buy complete AR-15's all day long for $500 right now. You're telling me a pipe with washers and threeaded endcaps should cost 1.5-2.5x more than a complete AR-15? I'm pretty sure that making one rifle barrel is more complex and time consuming than making most suppressors. Someone doesn't understand economies of scale. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:58:59 PM EDT
[#35]
In this thread we get to see a worker's mentality vs. a business owner's mentality.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:59:37 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because of all the layers of Government bureaucracy. Also, the market is fairly small, and crowded. This is not rocket science. You will see prices come down, if and when, supply continues to outstrip demand. Sort of, the $200 tax and 10 month wait time means I'm willing to spend a lot more and buy a product made from fancy expensive shit, welded together by magical fucking elves and that I have no interest in a mag lite with pot metal baffles. So if that equation changes my purchasing bias may also, doesn't mean that current silencers are selling for 20x cost, I'd be surprised if most mfg's had more than a 20% margin and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it was more like 6-10% after you factor in all their operating costs. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:59:39 PM EDT
[#37]
I agree, suppressors are way overpriced. It isn't because of the fancy materials or the quality. It's because the kind of people who can afford to pay a $200 tax right off the top, generally have enough money to spend on high priced toys.
2000% is a huge overestimate, but it would not at all surprise me to learn that after manufacturing, materials, advertising, labor, and overhead, manufacturers are charging 3 to 4 times what it costs them per unit to manufacture. If a complete AR15 rifle can be purchased for less than $500, there is no reason a far simpler device that has far less machining and other manufacturing processes, and uses a lot less materials, should cost 2 to 3 times as much. Consider what a suppressor is made of, and then consider all of the casting and machining that goes into building a complete firearm. Even monolithic baffle cores that are machined from solid billets are still not going to cost more than a complete rifle to make. That said, the prices will remain high because of the nature of the suppressor industry. Until and unless the HPA passes, there will be no incentive to lower prices because there will be no real competition in this market niche. 41p/41f is definitely putting a strain on sales though. I am done with anything NFA unless 41f goes away, or the HPA passes. The only thing that would get me back in with the current rules would be a repeal of Hughes. Pass the HPA, and prices will still remain high until everyone that has to have one "right now" has bought one. Then once the run on them is over, prices will slowly start to fall. If HPA passed today, I'd say you could expect some good deals 3 Black Fridays from now. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:00:14 PM EDT
[#38]
nvm
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:01:04 PM EDT
[#39]
Those solvent trap "kits" were selling in the $200 price range awhile back.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:01:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol. Math fail Damnit. I'm leaving now. You're welcome OP. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:02:59 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A thousand dollars is more than most of us will ever spend on a new AR-15. Lol, on ARF? You even look at the photos? This place is the home of amazing hardware. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:03:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Okay, so you're saying none of that stuff is required to make an AR-15? Because I can buy complete AR-15's all day long for $500 right now. You're telling me a pipe with washers and threeaded endcaps should cost 1.5-2.5x more than a complete AR-15? I'm pretty sure that making one rifle barrel is more complex and time consuming than making most suppressors. Because assembling something from overrun/second tier parts =/= manufacturing your own product, in house |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:06:26 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Better question is why aren't they hammering Congress to pass HPA? It's possible they realize that the HPA will increase their competition. I get why they initially supported it, but they probably didn't figure on having to compete with the "solvent trap" guys that will spring up all over the place and who won't need to have a manufacturing license. I saw a really nicely machined "solvent trap" at a gun show recently. It came with baffles "solvent cups" end caps, and everything. It even included steel drill guides to complete it as a suppressor (after you get a form 1, of course). I wouldn't buy or possess something like that without a form one stamp in hand though. The point is, these things are very high quality machining, only cost a fraction of what "real" suppressor companies are charging, and if the HPA passes, can be completed at home with a hand drill in minutes. So maybe manufacturers are unsure if the status quo will be more profitable than competing against DIY parts kits. If you think finishing an 80% AR lower is easy, these things will be a breeze if they are ever made legal. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:07:24 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much do the machining centers to make the parts cost? How many employees are needed to mfg, assemble, market, handle legal aspects? How much does the mfg actually get paid by their distributors for the finished product? Never mind, you're probably right it's the vast conspiracy of the cabal of silencer manufacturer's, they're all fucking us. You should buy a grizzly manual lathe, imitation mag lite bodies from alibaba in gross and a pallet of sbc drain plugs and undercut the market, only charge 1000% markup. Not any more than it costs to make a complete AR rifle and sell it for $500. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:09:08 PM EDT
[#45]
I have run my own business. I have a college degree. I make more than 85% of Americans and I won't spend $1,000 on a suppressor.
I know there are hidden costs and I know that very few manufacturers are could possibly be making a 20x return on their silencers (but suspect that some do based on their name recognition).. But I do suspect many, I suspect most, charge more than 10x what it costs them to make a suppressor. As for economies of scale, that's something the manufacturers should have worked out. In fact, charging more per item makes economies of scale more difficult because you don't have the quantitative purchasing power on your parts. So again I say, every serious manufacturer should sell an affordable (non iconel for those of you bitching about iconel) suppressor for around $200, because let's face it--that's a fair price for a quality suppressor that should last a lifetime. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:10:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not any more than it costs to make a complete AR rifle and sell it for $500. Please show me a company that manufactures an AR-15 all in house, all being the keyword, and sells it for $500. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:11:15 PM EDT
[#47]
A suppressor has about the same into it as a quality barrel...prices should reflect that in a normal market
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:11:26 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Everyone knows that 95% of suppressors are based on a hundred year old design and the materials are not expensive to acquire or machine. (They could basically weld washers inside a pipe). The profit margin has to be around 2000%, and it really only requires one man to build many designs beginning to end. Add to that the fact that your buyers have to suffer a $200 penalty from the government, and you'd think they would cut us some slack. Can we expect prices to drop if legalization is going to take another ten years? I can't say I feel sorry for the manufacturers if they go out of business while keeping their prices at levels only rich people can afford. Even top tier manufacturers could produce affordable suppressors for the common man if they cared to do so. In fact, the quickest way to force legalizing suppressors is probably to lower the prices and quadruple sales, thereby overhelming the NFA process and normalizing suppressors in every home. The answer is start hiring immigrant labor or move manufacturing to low cost country......but then all the MAGA folks will get their panties all in the bunch. Don't demand "Made in USA" and then bitch about the cost of having it so. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:13:16 PM EDT
[#49]
How many AR's were sold last year? How many companies actually forge their own upper and lower? How many unique ar parts are there that only fit and work with other proprietary parts? I don't believe I can startup a company and sell silencers for ridiculous markups, but it appears several people here do, you could all pool your resources and go into business together. If those of you in this thread truly believe what you claim, why in the blue fuck would you not do this? If I thought there was a business I could start and sell my products for 2000% of cost, I would try to figure out a way to raise the capital and get started.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 9:14:33 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please show me a company that manufactures an AR-15 all in house, all being the keyword, and sells it for $500. I just bought a complete ambi lower for $159, and a complete upper with BCG and keymod rail and lowpro gas block for <$500 total from PSA. Also, I could've bought the basic lower for $129 and a standard (FSP) upper for $199, add a $79 BCG, and you have a complete carbine for about $400--and they are making a profit... |
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