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Posted: 6/14/2003 6:50:41 PM EDT
[#1]
ack!!
my space gun! Hope you all get things ironed out. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 6:53:11 PM EDT
[#2]
[>:/]
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Posted: 6/14/2003 7:07:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: [>:/] Ditto. Seems like a rule to fix something that isn't broken. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 7:18:44 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Quoted: [>:/] Ditto. Seems like a rule to fix something that isn't broken. I know there haven't been problems with the group buys that have taken place in the past months but there have been prior instances where quite a few members got the short end of the stick, two such names off the top of my head are: 'AZ-Shooter' & 'Paul308' Both members robbed a lot of trust from this board, we're only trying to make sure it doesn't happen again. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 7:29:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: [>:/] Ditto. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 7:43:43 PM EDT
[#6]
Just as I was about to announce my group buy on miniguns.
[heavy] [heavy] ____________________________________ The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you are already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function, without mercy, without compassion, without remorse. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 7:46:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Sheeesh, nothing like dumping a turd in the punch bowl then scootin out the door.
So what you're saying is nothing brought this on, no incident or problem and that you guys were bored and all of a sudden came up with this solution to a problem that doesn't exist ?? The two people you mentioned happened quite a while ago if I'm not mistaken, so come on, be honest, we can take the truth, whats the REAL reason ?? |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 7:55:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Stopping group buys because they might go bad is like cutting my tongue out because I might yell "fire" in a crowded theater. [>:/]
Bob |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 8:04:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Is this a dealer/industry partner cap? I mean why are regular members a reflection on AR15? I specifically have a group buy for 458 SOCOM brass in mind in the near future for all the guys who just got their uppers in the 458 SOCOM upper GB....this would be a second one after the first one went off without a hitch.
This is kinda crudy.....IMHO. Sorry guys, IM me if there is more to share, but this seems to be hurting many to protect a few. I don't understand the sudden "business" angle taken by the site. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 8:22:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Wow.
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Posted: 6/14/2003 8:24:38 PM EDT
[#11]
How about a tack?
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Posted: 6/14/2003 8:29:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Apparently pre-emptive strike's are in vogue now since the Iraq War. |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 8:30:30 PM EDT
[#13]
lame
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Posted: 6/14/2003 9:36:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Hmmm, very strange. Are you really afraid of legal ramifications? There is something you are not telling us. Your explanation just does not hold up. However, it's your board, so you make the rules. I don't know how you are going to keep free people from deciding to purchase the same item and calling it a "shared purchase" or something.
Sorry for spouting off, but silly rules are annoying. (I frequent this place because it is full of freedom minded individuals) |
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Posted: 6/14/2003 10:56:07 PM EDT
[#15]
Sounds prudent to me.
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Posted: 6/15/2003 12:31:18 AM EDT
[#16]
One more vote for "fucked up attempt at preventing a problem before the problem exists".
Wouldn't a purer form of socialism be easier to justify and enforce? Shouldn't we ban everything with an ArfCom logo on it? Really, I wouldn't want to piss off an anti or anything. If someone is bitching about a group buy for some reason, tell them to screw off and die or tell them to take it up with the manufacturer. Don't burn the rest of us for one dickheads beef. I cannot see a legitimate reason for you starting this whiny-assed thread. Really. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 12:39:43 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Apparently pre-emptive strike's are in vogue now since the Iraq War. It wasn't a War; Pre-Emptive Strikes WORK. [;D][;)] |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 1:01:58 AM EDT
[#18]
Pre-Ban.com is looking better every day.
CHRIS |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 1:58:33 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Sheeesh, nothing like dumping a turd in the punch bowl then scootin out the door. So what you're saying is nothing brought this on, no incident or problem and that you guys were bored and all of a sudden came up with this solution to a problem that doesn't exist ?? The two people you mentioned happened quite a while ago if I'm not mistaken, so come on, be honest, we can take the truth, whats the REAL reason ?? I concur. But, us peons can cry all we want, as there is no majority rule, nor is there a substantial amount of common sense being used to guide the site staff. I guess I can now start bragging about being in on one of the last pre-ban group buys on ARFCOM. Sheesh, it would at least be nice to hear the truth behind the freeze. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 4:14:56 AM EDT
[#20]
If you don't want to put up with the nonsense and drama, simply take your group purchase to pre-ban.com like I did.
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Posted: 6/15/2003 4:15:51 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: There is something you are not telling us. Your explanation just does not hold up. However, it's your board, so you make the rules. I don't know how you are going to keep free people from deciding to purchase the same item and calling it a "shared purchase" or something. Sorry for spouting off, but silly rules are annoying. (I frequent this place because it is full of freedom minded individuals) My initial thoughts exactly. I don't like this idea at all. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 4:21:31 AM EDT
[#22]
Hmmmmm, it certainly would appear that something is going on here.... I'd like to hear from Steyr....
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Posted: 6/15/2003 4:24:23 AM EDT
[#23]
I wonder if this has anything to do with the Moderator announcement posted last night.....
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Posted: 6/15/2003 5:01:48 AM EDT
[#24]
Whoohoo, they just validated the Assult Weapons Ban and others. Protect the masses because they can't do it themselves. [rolleyes]
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Posted: 6/15/2003 5:09:56 AM EDT
[#25]
Follow the money.
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Posted: 6/15/2003 5:20:49 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: [>:/] Ditto. Seems like a rule to fix something that isn't broken. I know there haven't been problems with the group buys that have taken place in the past months but there have been prior instances where quite a few members got the short end of the stick, two such names off the top of my head are: 'AZ-Shooter' & 'Paul308' Both members robbed a lot of trust from this board, we're only trying to make sure it doesn't happen again. I got had by AZ_shooter, he wasn't doing group buys, he was just selling parts etc....Seems someone may be onto something, but isn't ready to break the news yet..... |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 5:27:53 AM EDT
[#27]
am in understanding this right in that discussing or organizing group buys, no matter on which sites they originate or for what products, is now forbidden?
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Posted: 6/15/2003 5:50:04 AM EDT
[#28]
btt
-hankko |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 5:55:46 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: I wonder if this has anything to do with the Moderator announcement posted last night..... |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 6:08:18 AM EDT
[#30]
Probably a [b]very[/b] good idea, as I have seen very few, if any deals, or group buys that would have saved anyone any money. This will insure that members here do not engage in some [b]super feud[/b] down the road. And if you feel or think you saved money on a group buy, ok, I don't need to hear about it ( I am a dealer and know what things go for dealer cost)
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Posted: 6/15/2003 6:14:54 AM EDT
[#31]
I vote for "follow the money" - sponsors are probably getting pissed off that their direct sales are, in effect, being undercut. Most group buys don't appear to directly conflict with sponsor sales, but some do - I can think of one member who was generously passing on at least some of his dealer discount from a sponsor who does alot of direct (at "retail") sales - not mentioning any names, but think two letter acronyms, sorts rhymes with "Macy's". While the deal was great for members, I guess I could sort of understand the sponsor's point of view - what is the point of them advertising direct sales here if a member was undercutting their price?
Still, I think if there are such conflicts, they should be addressed on an individual basis, instead of corporal punishment. Hell, if the sponsor doesn't like it, they can just refuse to sell to that person... Edit: Also agree with Cynanide - very often the so called "group buy" doesn't save much money, at least in terms of the aggrivation involved. Also, I think it is important to define what a "group buy" is - if it is organized by a regular member, then I don't think any profit should really be involved. If it is, it is more of a sale/advertisement than a "group buy", and those doing this often and on a large enough scale should be perhaps be required to kick a bit back to the board as a sponsor, just like on the EE. Rocko |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 6:28:53 AM EDT
[#32]
My understanding is that the "hold" is designed to provide a little breathing room so that the group buy concept can be discussed and a fair and equitable arrangement be reached.
While the recent spate of "Group Buys" may have initiated the re-evaluation, such re-assessment is specifically NOT directed at any one member. Said spate could have been originated by anyone. Point is that given the extant circumstances, a little time is needed to evaluate the mechanics of such threads. Note that no ongoing group buys have been abruptly terminated, so that is an indication that nothing untoward has been discovered concerning them. Again, this is not directed at any individual. Nor has any individual, other than the two named above, been alleged to be engaging in unethical activity. That is my understanding of the matter. If I'm wrong, someone will be along shortly, no doubt. So forget the conspiracy theories for now. This entirely mundane, and pretty much on the order of housekeeping than anything else. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 6:33:45 AM EDT
[#33]
Many of you are too quick to assume it is about money,or limiting your rights,or that something fishy must be going on.
Group buys are not being banned,only being looked at to have some guidelines. Here is a good piece of advice..... for life in general: [size=5][red]Never reach a conclusion,until you have examined the facts![/red][/size=5] |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 6:42:25 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: My understanding is that the "hold" is designed to provide a little breathing room so that the group buy concept can be discussed and a fair and equitable arrangement be reached. While the recent spate of "Group Buys" may have initiated the re-evaluation, such re-assessment is specifically NOT directed at any one member. Said spate could have been originated by anyone. Point is that given the extant circumstances, a little time is needed to evaluate the mechanics of such threads. Note that no ongoing group buys have been abruptly terminated, so that is an indication that nothing untoward has been discovered concerning them. Again, this is not directed at any individual. Nor has any individual, other than the two named above, been alleged to be engaging in unethical activity. That is my understanding of the matter. If I'm wrong, someone will be along shortly, no doubt. So forget the conspiracy theories for now. This entirely mundane, and pretty much on the order of housekeeping than anything else. Thanx for the clarification raf...... Now we KNOW it's a cover-up!!!!! [snoopy]!!! [:D] |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 7:37:22 AM EDT
[#35]
Hey! I still want my BDU's! [;)]
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Posted: 6/15/2003 7:52:18 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: [size=5][red]Never reach a conclusion,until you have examined the facts![/red][/size=5] When you don't give people all the facts, they're likely to jump to conclusions. Also, events don't happen in a vacuum, and most people know this. They're going to look around for the events that lead up to an action. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 8:05:24 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: I'm sure many of you are wondering why, well, we have two main reasons: 1.) Setting up some ground rules & taking some precautions so that we can better guard against any 'deal gone bad' stories. There hasn't been such a problem yet but it is something we don't want to let happen. 2.) We want to look at the issues of placement, timing & promotion issues of group buys. The facts ARE posted! some of you CHOOSE not to read them,or assume what we have told you is not THE TRUE EXPLANATION. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 8:13:20 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Quoted: I wonder if this has anything to do with the Moderator announcement posted last night..... And despite their best efforts they didn't crash it! Broke a few things but it still works! [:D] As for the reason for the "hold" on group buys..Kevin posted the reasons. Nothing more..nothing less. Why does everything here have to be some back room subversive plot against the members? gheez!!! |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 8:17:31 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Hmmmmm, it certainly would appear that something is going on here.... I'd like to hear from Steyr.... I got a heads up a couple weeks ago, hence no group buys on my part since then. Like you guys I'm stanging by waiting for the official ruling. I will adjust as necessary. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 8:35:38 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Also, I think it is important to define what a "group buy" is - if it is organized by a regular member, then I don't think any profit should really be involved. If it is, it is more of a sale/advertisement than a "group buy", and those doing this often and on a large enough scale should be perhaps be required to kick a bit back to the board as a sponsor, just like on the EE. Rocko Since you probably weren't aware, selling guns "at cost" could cost a dealer his license. ATF has a specific rule regarding "Must be engaged in business for profit." This is very much like there other vague, open end rules like "Particularly suited to sporting purposes" where they are in a postition to make a "determination of compliance." All the ATF has to do is "determine" that you are not seriously attempting to run a "profitable business" and poof you are no longer a dealer. I know several "hobby dealers" who were non renewed for just this reason. On average I made about 5% on group buys. The majority of those who ever complained are guys who buy at dealer cost through a buddy who is a dealer. They believe that ANYTHING above dealer price is a ripoff no matter how many $100s of dollars below actual retail it may be. Obviously this person will never be happy. And of course they are the same guys who when selling a gun in the EE are trying to get full market value. And if you want to see them balk, try and negotiate their "firm" price. This is my business, not a hobby or sideline. This is how I make my living. Just as you would not appreciate to have terms dictated to you regarding your salary, I don't like it either. I honestly believe all my Group Buy have been a good deal, but they have never been "at cost." I have not seen a business model that allows me to buy and sell at dealer price and still stay in business. But as a single guy dealer conducting small number group buys (usually 10), I think I am effectively competing with larger distributors who buy in the 100+ range. But I cannot always beat the Wal Mart price for obvious reasons. I do what I can. If people can get it for 40 cents less across the street, I think we all know most people will. With the realization that bigger guys may be cheaper I try and make up the difference in other ways. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 9:03:29 AM EDT
[#41]
That pretty much sums THAT up.
AB |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 9:12:08 AM EDT
[#42]
Steyr,
I think you misunderstood my post. It was made in the context of this discussion, that if there is profit to being made in a "group buy", then the person conducting that should be paying for a Dealer membership on this site, since they are using the board for profit. Since you have that "Dealer" tag below your name, you are obviously already doing this. Whether or not your group buys are worth it is another discussion altogether. I don't think your terms or profit is unfair, but I think the concept basically suffers from the same failings as any other non-local "group buy" - that any small savings in cost is usually eaten up by the double shipping charge and extra aggrivation, delays, etc. that are associated with organizing something like this. In my experiences, group buys only really are worth it if everyone is local... Certainly not your fault and nothing you can do to help it - as mentioned, this is a failing of the whole group buy concept. Rocko |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 9:19:54 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Steyr, I think you misunderstood my post. It was made in the context of this discussion, that if there is profit to being made in a "group buy", then the person conducting that should be paying for a Dealer membership on this site, since they are using the board for profit. Since you have that "Dealer" tag below your name, you are obviously already doing this. Whether or not your group buys are worth it is another discussion altogether. I don't think your terms or profit is unfair, but I think the concept basically suffers from the same failings as any other non-local "group buy" - that any small savings in cost is usually eaten up by the double shipping charge and extra aggrivation, delays, etc. that are associated with organizing something like this. In my experiences, group buys only really are worth it if everyone is local... Certainly not your fault and nothing you can do to help it - as mentioned, this is a failing of the whole group buy concept. Rocko Sorry if I misunderstood the post. But it raised the issue (one that most people don't have a realistic understanding of) so I chose to address it. And I think this may be the concern of the staff. During the FAL Group Buy a few people contacted the staff and complained about the pricing. They had bought theirs "at" dealer price with only one way shipping and thought I was gouging the board. And once somebody declares "Shenanigans" there is a problem. This is why I routinely pass on many "ok" offers because somebody will complain. And you are dead on with the double shipping nullifying the price break in many cases. This is why I've never done a Group Buy on handguns. Shippers require 2 day air on handguns and even if I sold "at cost" people could still get them locallyly cheaper given the double 2 day air shipping rates. Like everyone else, gonna wait and see where this goes, see what the new regs are and try and adapt to them best I can. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 9:31:23 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: And I think this may be the concern of the staff. During the FAL Group Buy a few people contacted the staff and complained about the pricing. They had bought theirs "at" dealer price with only one way shipping and thought I was gouging the board. And once somebody declares "Shenanigans" there is a problem. Steyr, I was in the GB for the FAL's for a little while, then discovered that my IRS picture wasn't as rosy this year as I'd thought... I had no complaints about the pricing; it was around 12 per cent ahead of dealer, but you needed something for the organization & 'customer maintenance' during the buy. If I'd HAD a problem with your pricing, why the hell would I complain to board Staff instead of directing my ire to you...I can't understand why folks would do that. If you're not satisifed with GB pricing, [b]pass on the damn GB[/b]. Get a better price if you can, but the deal is between you as a customer and the person organizing the GB. Complaining to Staff sounds like you're a whining Nancy. Don't like it...don't participate. -hanko |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 9:38:45 AM EDT
[#45]
For me personally I only really see a 'group buy' in two instances:
1- Something with a limited run, or something that a manufacturer will only tool up to produce if they have enough people to buy em. 2- IF a group can get a damn good price. This usually isnt the case on forum 'group buys' (not just here, but really anywhere), if anything allowing them to go on could possibly lead to a situation where somebody comes along and abuses people's trust in a 'group buy' and the site getting blamed, rightly or wrongly, for allowing the bad 'group buy' to happen. But that is just me, if others want to be involved in one, it is no skin off my teeth. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 9:46:31 AM EDT
[#46]
I love all the conspiracy theories but plain & simple reasons #1 & 2 summed things up. Because some of you wish more elaboration here goes -
The group buys are starting to pop up all over the boards (here at arfcom) and not all of them are from well known members or even dealers. All we're want to do is to setup some form of verification so that we can be a little more comfortable with allowing them to take place. Just because nobody gotten screwed so far doesn't mean it's not a possibility. Though the two examples I gave earlier weren't "group buys" it's the same thing of you sending YOUR $$$ money in & expecting to get X item(s) in return. For those who may not remember, Paul Podhorn was about 3 years ago and he WAS a person in good standing but he failed to follow through and walked away with around $15,000 worth of members cash & merchandise. A little over a year ago we had AZ-Shooter get in over his head and a lot of folks didn't get their merchandise or $$$ back because he got in over his head and just walked. All we're trying to do is setup a few safeguards so some 'JoeBlow' doesn't show up and cause another incident like above. The only other issue involved is the promotional/location issues of group buys. But that's a far more trivial detail. We've had some complaints, some suggestions & have a couple of ideas of our own. All we're asking for is maybe just a month or so (hopefully less) of breathing room to square things away. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 9:54:54 AM EDT
[#47]
For the record, pricing issues are of little concern. I'm not going to say we haven't been tapped on the shoulder by a couple of folks about but IMO it's a buyer's responsibility to do his homework and decide what's best for him. There can always be variations with prices because some deals are good 'ol boy deals, others are move 'em out deals & some are for building a customer base.
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Posted: 6/15/2003 11:31:38 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Hey! I still want my BDU's! [;)] Just to offer a sitrep. You and 4 other guys are still waiting on delivery of your order. Each of you is only waiting on one piece that was originally delivered in the wrong size. I have, and have had for some time, the rest of your order waiting on that one damn piece. The incorrectly delivered items were returned to Propper over a month ago and I'm still waiting on them to get the order filled correctly. The rep I'm dealing with did not return a single one of my many calls last week. This week I think I'm gonna just nip the crap in the bud and go over her head and get a definitive answer from her boss. By next week I will either have a delivery estimate or will see if the individuals involved want me to ship their order minus that one piece or would prefer to wait and see. I'm gonna do what I can to try and get this one done and delivered. Propper did a pretty decent job on the majority of this order. Many pieces took a bit of time cause they were unusual patterns in sizes like 3XLL. But I wish they'd get their act together regarding the last 5 pieces. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 11:36:30 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: For those who may not remember, Paul Podhorn was about 3 years ago and he WAS a person in good standing but he failed to follow through and walked away with around $15,000 worth of members cash & merchandise. A little over a year ago we had AZ-Shooter get in over his head and a lot of folks didn't get their merchandise or $$$ back because he got in over his head and just walked. All we're trying to do is setup a few safeguards so some 'JoeBlow' doesn't show up and cause another incident like above. As a possible safeguard maybe dealers could provide specific documentation (FFLs, Resale Tax Certificates, Occupational Licenses, Etc.) to be kept on file by a member of the staff. This way you have legitimate contact information. Most bonafide dealers are not gonna risk their future long term business on a group buy scam. |
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Posted: 6/15/2003 3:42:06 PM EDT
[#50]
Any of you remember the AR10 group buy that some dickwad posted in the EE a couple months ago? Totally unknown seller, posted very few details and if memory serves me correctly, he wanted cash without proving anything. He referred us to some dealer, who noone knew existed and he wouldn't provide any more info about the dealer.
And yes, there are morons on this board who wouldn't be smart enough to look out for themselves and others who are just too trusting to take precautions. I've been worried about people ripping off Ar15.com members for a while and I think any system that better tracks OFFICIAL AR15.com group buys is better than allowing anyone to use the board to their benefit. I think its a great idea, in fact, I think that such an idea should also include someone to verify the prices that the GB poster is getting. If the cost is $400 dollars for 20 units of X, then a reasonable profit should be built in. But gouging while under the guise of "Group Buy" should be eliminated. |
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