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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:08:06 AM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:13:16 AM EDT
[#2]
I can't imagine the horrifying feeling of those on board that rode it in that day.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:14:46 AM EDT
[#3]
This video always gets me a bit teary-eyed.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:16:35 AM EDT
[#4]
Someone here was theorizing that it had something to do with a ton of weight going all the way aft during take off. I guess they were right.
Really must have sucked to be in the cockpit on take off and have no control over your aircrafts pitch.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:17:40 AM EDT
[#5]
It makes me appreciate the good job done by the guys loading the mil birds I have flown in.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:19:16 AM EDT
[#6]
Haven't watched that video in a while... Damn that must have been horrible to be in that plane.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:19:46 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Someone here was theorizing that it had something to do with a ton of weight going all the way aft during take off. I guess they were right. Really must have sucked to be in the cockpit on take off and have no control over your aircrafts pitch. there's a saying in the RC airplane hobby about where to set your cg for a maiden flight, being that you're not sure how the thing flies yet: "a nose heavy plane will fly poorly, and tail heavy plane will fly once" must have been an excruciating couple of seconds before impact. luckily they wouldn't have been alive long enough to feel the fire. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:20:17 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Someone here was theorizing that it had something to do with a ton of weight going all the way aft during take off. I guess they were right. Really must have sucked to be in the cockpit on take off and have no control over your aircrafts pitch. I don't know if I commented on it then but the pitch up does support that notion. What is new information is the damage to the control systems. I have not read the full report and question whether recovery was possible even without the control system damage. Once you get a huge center of gravity shift beyond the ability of the elevator to control it, you are along for the ride an inevitable impact with Earth. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:21:18 AM EDT
[#9]
A costly mistake.
Complacency has no place in air ops. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:24:24 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Once you get a huge center of gravity shift beyond the ability of the elevator to control it, you are along for the ride an inevitable impact with Earth. yep, had it happened in flight, with enough airspeed and altitude (and no damage to the control systems) they might have been able to control it enough to get the situation under control. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:29:20 AM EDT
[#11]
That was a bad day. I was working at the passenger terminal when it went down. Shook our building and we all ran out to see what the hell had happened. Then came the announcement over comms that a 747 had gone down. Not 30 minutes later the Taliban was claiming they had shot it down. I had all kinds of people running up to me asking if their people were on the jet.
BGen Gustella (the base commander) was pissed as fuck when he found out about the vid being posted, and ordered a 72 hour com blackout. No websites outside of .mil sites were able to be visited. Thankfully (silver lining for me here) none of my guys laid a hand on that jet. It was all contractors. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:37:28 AM EDT
[#12]
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment.
IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:48:57 AM EDT
[#13]
I just downloaded and scanned through the synopsis of the NTSB report and a center of gravity problem appears to not be the cause of the crash, rather it was the damage to the control system that rendered pitch control impossible.
"The airplane’s loss of pitch control was the result of the improper restraint of the rear mine-resistant ambush-protected all-terrain vehicle, which allowed it to move aft through the aft pressure bulkhead and damage hydraulic systems Nos. 1 and 2 and horizontal stabilizer drive mechanism components to the extent that it was not possible for the flight crew to regain pitch control of the airplane." |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:52:42 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:56:43 AM EDT
[#15]
Contractors?
Was it "local" contractors or guys from the US? |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 10:58:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:00:09 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:00:22 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Contractors? Was it "local" contractors or guys from the US? US contractors. We're not going to let some 3rd country asswipe near our jets, not even to clean the shitters. These dudes worked for National Air. We heard rumors right after it happened that DHL loaded the jet, but I don't think that was ever confirmed. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:00:45 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? I suspect that he died in the crash. "All seven crewmembers—the captain, first officer, loadmaster, augmented captain and first officer, and two mechanics—died, and the airplane was destroyed from impact forces and postcrash fire." |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:00:55 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Yea. the jet he was on nosedi ved into the earth at a couple hundred miles per hour 
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:02:11 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. So what were the straps attached to? |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:03:32 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. DOD/TRANSCOM. It was a contracted flight. We had cargo, they had the plane. The people who staged the cargo refer to the air carriers capabilities to determine if it's flyable. Nat'l Air said they could do it. Turned out they were wrong. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:04:18 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Yes, no chains allowed on Boeings is correct. The vehicles are chained to the pallets, then the pallets are restrained with a shit ton of straps. I think back and seem to remember talk of there being an inadequate number of straps found in the wreck. Strap buckles really. We have some guys from National working where I work now, and that was an issue that got mentioned a lot. I posted a picture of how they get secured on the old thread here. I dont think I have it on this computer anymore. Caver, yes, I think a zipper effect would be accurate, then an unrestrained pallet and vehicle went thru the aft bulkhead and into the rudder and stab hydraulic packs. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:04:20 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what were the straps attached to? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. So what were the straps attached to? cookie sheet pallets. here's the floor. See those things in the middle? Those are the pallet rails. The floor is made of fiberglass. 
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:07:23 AM EDT
[#25]
This is probably what it looked like on the inside
The rings on the side are the ONLY source of tie down points on the jet that i'm aware of. They're not rated for much. 
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:08:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
DOD/TRANSCOM. It was a contracted flight. We had cargo, they had the plane. The people who staged the cargo refer to the air carriers capabilities to determine if it's flyable. Nat'l Air said they could do it. Turned out they were wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. DOD/TRANSCOM. It was a contracted flight. We had cargo, they had the plane. The people who staged the cargo refer to the air carriers capabilities to determine if it's flyable. Nat'l Air said they could do it. Turned out they were wrong. SMDH. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:09:58 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
US contractors. We're not going to let some 3rd country asswipe near our jets, not even to clean the shitters. These dudes worked for National Air. We heard rumors right after it happened that DHL loaded the jet, but I don't think that was ever confirmed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Contractors? Was it "local" contractors or guys from the US? US contractors. We're not going to let some 3rd country asswipe near our jets, not even to clean the shitters. These dudes worked for National Air. We heard rumors right after it happened that DHL loaded the jet, but I don't think that was ever confirmed. The sad thing is how many U.S. commercial carriers have moved offshore to service their aircraft. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:11:02 AM EDT
[#28]
Load shift. Not as uncommon as you would imagine and dangerous as hell.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:12:24 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Who made the decision to move those MRAPs on a commercial cargo plane rather than a military transport? If they knew that the lack of proper tie downs on the 747B, why did they still decided to move those vehicles??? Now you have the loss of not only the crew, but of the aircraft and the cargo. Someone messed up BIG TIME. Well, we took all those mraps into the area. Contractor flights I mean, not just my company, but a combo of all the 747 contractors. There is no lack of tie downs on a 747. We just dont use chains as they have no give and will damage the the D rings. The key in this crash was not enough proper straps were available. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:14:25 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Load shift. Not as uncommon as you would imagine and dangerous as hell. Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:14:27 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is probably what it looked like on the inside http://s7.postimg.org/tjj48000b/100113_F_0571_C_004.jpg The rings on the side are the ONLY source of tie down points on the jet that i'm aware of. They're not rated for much. http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o618/Mti1Wg/DSC_0091_zps56172ba8.jpeg That second pic was mine from the old thread. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:17:16 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Load shift. Not as uncommon as you would imagine and dangerous as hell. Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. VACaver, it's not common. When you getting back to loadsmashing? We could use the help. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:17:17 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SMDH. Also, 747s can carry a fuckton more than even a C5. C5 have 36 pallet positions, 747s have 42. Fun fact: There's also an MOU that DOD has with various civilian carriers (called CRAF). During war time we can call on civilian airlines to move our cargo/passengers if needed. Remember in Jarhead, the scene with all the civilian 747s off loading passengers? That's CRAF. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:21:14 AM EDT
[#34]
Here's a C17 cargo floor. Those are the D rings that are normally needed for heavy vehicles. They're rated at 25,000 lbs each.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:27:01 AM EDT
[#35]
I'm learning a lot in this thread. I'll probably never need the information, but I still appreciate the info.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:28:25 AM EDT
[#36]
I would hate to be the guy who loaded those vehicles, that would haunt me for life.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:29:13 AM EDT
[#37]
In a former life I was the owner of a towing company. People don't understand why I get upset when
I see a flatbed with the winch and one chain the only thing holding a vehicle in place. Usually nothing happens, until it does. Sad. Would have thought aircraft ops would leave no room for this. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:29:14 AM EDT
[#38]
Holy shit, 5 mraps sliding back will fuck up anyones day... probably even if there was no hydraulic damage.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:29:38 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's a C17 cargo floor. Those are the D rings that are normally needed for heavy vehicles. They're rated at 25,000 lbs each. http://s27.postimg.org/i7ky0py6b/ers.jpg That's a really cool picture. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:30:13 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Pretty sure he was on board. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:37:04 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
VACaver, it's not common. When you getting back to loadsmashing? We could use the help. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Load shift. Not as uncommon as you would imagine and dangerous as hell. Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. VACaver, it's not common. When you getting back to loadsmashing? We could use the help. You guys are hiring? Shoot me an IM with contact info. Thanks. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:39:44 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was a bad day. I was working at the passenger terminal when it went down. Shook our building and we all ran out to see what the hell had happened. Then came the announcement over comms that a 747 had gone down. Not 30 minutes later the Taliban was claiming they had shot it down. I had all kinds of people running up to me asking if their people were on the jet. BGen Gustella (the base commander) was pissed as fuck when he found out about the vid being posted, and ordered a 72 hour com blackout. No websites outside of .mil sites were able to be visited. Thankfully (silver lining for me here) none of my guys laid a hand on that jet. It was all contractors. The blackout didn't go into effect for almost 3 hours IIRC. That always struck me as odd. It was a shitty day. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:45:24 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would hate to be the guy who loaded those vehicles, that would haunt me for life. Probably not, considering he probably died aboard the plane. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:47:02 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, 747s can carry a fuckton more than even a C5. C5 have 36 pallet positions, 747s have 42. Fun fact: There's also an MOU that DOD has with various civilian carriers (called CRAF). During war time we can call on civilian airlines to move our cargo/passengers if needed. Remember in Jarhead, the scene with all the civilian 747s off loading passengers? That's CRAF. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
SMDH. Also, 747s can carry a fuckton more than even a C5. C5 have 36 pallet positions, 747s have 42. Fun fact: There's also an MOU that DOD has with various civilian carriers (called CRAF). During war time we can call on civilian airlines to move our cargo/passengers if needed. Remember in Jarhead, the scene with all the civilian 747s off loading passengers? That's CRAF. I understand that, but MRAPs are NOT the same as a load of ammunition or MREs; you can tie down a load of MREs with 5k rated straps and off you go; MRAPs (depending on what vehicle it is) is a much different beast to load. Granted, my knowledge of cargo operations is limited to VERY LIMITED (10 level) railhead ops for a lowly former 92Y like myself. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:50:00 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would hate to be the guy who loaded those vehicles, that would haunt me for life. All 30 seconds. Only thing going through is mind was probably "I've killed us all". |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:51:37 AM EDT
[#46]
I have always thought about cargo issues on commercial flights....ever seen what is loaded on some of the international wide bodies? I just hope everything is tied down...
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:52:57 AM EDT
[#47]
I remember there was a ton of talk about load shifting. Those cargo strap pictures look incredibly scary.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:53:48 AM EDT
[#48]
The load shift findings are to be expected, but I was not expecting the elevator damage and subsequent pitch control issues.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:54:21 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Someone here was theorizing that it had something to do with a ton of weight going all the way aft during take off. I guess they were right. Really must have sucked to be in the cockpit on take off and have no control over your aircrafts pitch. This. I've been on small commuter aircraft where they tell people to move seats to redistribute the weight to keep from being ass or nose heavy... or for assholes not lining up in the back of the plane by the bathroom. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:55:29 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't imagine the horrifying feeling of those on board that rode it in that day. This
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