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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:22:13 AM EDT
[#1]
Something tells me that Barry or Nancy has a new idea to increase the scope of Obamacare to include years of rehab and they went to the liberal shit-sheet known as The Atlantic to start ginning up support for their latest distraction/cause. We wouldn't want people to spend too much time on Hillary's emails. They might realize that Obama appointed her. Bad for the party and all that...
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:25:17 AM EDT
[#2]
Addicts are addicts. AA is meant to help people quit, it's a support group to help stay sober.
Noone goes to AA to quit drinking, they go to get support to stay sober. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:26:37 AM EDT
[#3]
think I will have a beer
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:27:04 AM EDT
[#4]
It helps some people quit drinking. That's more than can be said for most of it's detractors.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:27:50 AM EDT
[#5]
Whatever, alcoholism is caused by an imbalance of bodily humours or in some rare cases demon possession brought on by an eclipse.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:28:30 AM EDT
[#6]
Other than AA, a serious gutter ball event, or religious conversion, or some combination of the proceedings death is the only cure for true drunks that I know of.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:31:16 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
very interesting article in the atlantic about how the AA's binary abstinence only approach is dogmatic, antiquated, and not supported by scientific research if not antagonistic to it, and perhaps has a single digits success rate. I would guess that most treatments of addiction have success rates in the single digits when defined in those terms. Nothing will "make" an addict quit. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:35:02 AM EDT
[#8]
AA works for some people (I know a few), but it's main drawback in the eyes of the ACA medical establishment may well be the cost: it's free.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:36:29 AM EDT
[#9]
Considering the alternatives, or just the reasonably priced alternatives, AA seems to be doing a pretty good job.
Yeh ever notice that some folks need to see a 100% success rate or something is a failure. There aren't many things I expect a 100% success rate. One of those is landings when I'm flying. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:37:41 AM EDT
[#10]
AA is a bunch of bullshit. Telling people they are not capable of handling themselves and they must submit to something else for strength isn't empowering, it's a transaction where they try to trade one crutch for another. Im so tired of victimization in all its forms, especially AfuckingA.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:39:32 AM EDT
[#11]
It works if you work it.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:42:30 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AA is a bunch of bullshit. Telling people they are not capable of handling themselves and they must submit to something else for strength isn't empowering, it's a transaction where they try to trade one crutch for another. Im so tired of victimization in all its forms, especially AfuckingA. AA certainly doesn't encourage people to claim they are victims, if that's what you mean. Actually the opposite. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:44:01 AM EDT
[#13]
Treating addicts... Never going to be 100% "successful."
I saw it work, though... I have seen people quit, and lead alcohol free lives. When I was a missionary... It was AA (essentially) that we taught. It works for some... People who want to change... |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:44:07 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would guess that most treatments of addiction have success rates in the single digits when defined in those terms. Nothing will "make" an addict quit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
very interesting article in the atlantic about how the AA's binary abstinence only approach is dogmatic, antiquated, and not supported by scientific research if not antagonistic to it, and perhaps has a single digits success rate. I would guess that most treatments of addiction have success rates in the single digits when defined in those terms. Nothing will "make" an addict quit. Quoted:
AA works for some people (I know a few), but it's main drawback in the eyes of the ACA medical establishment may well be the cost: it's free. Both of these. Medical psychiatric "addiction treatment" results are generally fucking miserable; they don't have any room to be throwing stones. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:44:35 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It works if you work it. unthinking at its finest |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:44:35 AM EDT
[#16]
Penn and Teller already did this.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:45:51 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Penn and Teller already did this. link 
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:47:23 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Other than AA, a serious gutter ball event, or religious conversion, or some combination of the proceedings death is the only cure for true drunks that I know of. I disagree. I used to drink like a fish, I simply got tired of headaches every morning and slowly cut down. Now it's unusual if I even have a drink a week. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:47:41 AM EDT
[#19]
I think the point is there is more than one way to treat alcohol addiction.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:48:22 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AA certainly doesn't encourage people to claim they are victims, if that's what you mean. Actually the opposite. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
AA is a bunch of bullshit. Telling people they are not capable of handling themselves and they must submit to something else for strength isn't empowering, it's a transaction where they try to trade one crutch for another. Im so tired of victimization in all its forms, especially AfuckingA. AA certainly doesn't encourage people to claim they are victims, if that's what you mean. Actually the opposite. Not from what I saw when I went to a meeting with my mom. "I'm powerless over my addiction." "Only a higher power can help me." "I will never not be an addict." I know it has helped some people, but I didn't like the tone. Just my opinion, though. Whatever works. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:48:34 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
unthinking at its finest Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It works if you work it. unthinking at its finest Keep coming back. 
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:48:34 AM EDT
[#22]
so AA's approach of alcoholism of not drinking alcohol is antiquated and dogmatic? Maybe they need a new approach of allowing alcoholics to get drunk every day
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:50:09 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Other than AA, a serious gutter ball event, or religious conversion, or some combination of the proceedings death is the only cure for true drunks that I know of. well, there is the anecdtal expericne of some random guy and there is double blind repetable scientific research. Its not surpriseing that in your experience, in the US the predomanance of AA thinking and its various concepts such as "hitting bottom" "one an alcaholic always an alcaholic" etc have so permutated our culture, partially through this congressional funding arrangement setup by that Iowa senator described in the article, that most people are unaware that there are alternatives that are the producs of real scientific research. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:53:31 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Considering the alternatives, or just the reasonably priced alternatives, AA seems to be doing a pretty good job. Yeh ever notice that some folks need to see a 100% success rate or something is a failure. There aren't many things I expect a 100% success rate. One of those is landings when I'm flying. neitehr I nor hte article complains that AA is NOT a 100% success. The article contends that the success rate may be as low as 5% and points out htat AA makes getting statitiscs famously difficult, thouhg admittedly, that may be ncessary for privacy or something. The article basically staes that there is a spectrum of different types of problem drinkers and that only a minority actually need the life long absolute absitnence approach. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:54:16 AM EDT
[#25]
I was in and out of rehabs and jail for years dealing with my issues with alcohol.
I have done 90 meetings in 90 days, and been to both AA focused and non AA rehabs. I just ticked past two years of sobriety, and have made a 180 degree turnaround in my life. I personally am not an AA guy. The program emphasizes with every mantra, every chant, every meeting, the philosophy that you have no control over yourself. That the addiction is stronger than you are, that you are a victim of a disease, that you can't control yourself, that only AA can help, over and over and over again. This never jived with me. I had to learn that life requires me to be in control of myself, it requires me to stand by my convictions, it requires me to make an effort, and it requires me to take the good with the bad and shrug it off. Being happy and content means understanding that you can do anything, including quitting drinking, if you put your mind to it. I learned to believe in myself, and as a result I quit drinking and drew myself up out of a deep, lifelong depression. I believe AA sets many people up to fail in this manner. It doesn't reaffirm the individual, it doesn't enforce that YES! you can fucking do it. It just dwells on, and constantly fetishizes, the addiction. I saw time and time again, if a person found themselves in a situation where they had a beer, mentally they had BAM gone back to square negative 100, and instead of exhibiting any kind of self control, just gave in and went on a destructive bender. The mindset is not, "adapt, learn, improve" it is "come to meetings or fall into the pit of despair and doom." I wanted to move on in my life, I want'ed to be normal, I wanted to be happy. The last thing I want to do now is sit in a room and think solely about alcohol, about addiction, about that next drink. I have a life to live. Also, the rate of success for people seeking to quit drinking is the same, regardless of what method they choose to use. Simply deciding to quit, going to rehab, or attending AA all have about a 5% success rate. You have to make up your mind to do it! |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:55:10 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It helps some people quit drinking. That's more than can be said for most of it's detractors. Exactly correct. ETA: I've seen quite a bit of variation in different AA groups as far as how much control a person has over addiction. If you go to meeting that makes you feel worse than when you walked in you're doing it wrong. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:55:23 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not from what I saw when I went to a meeting with my mom. "I'm powerless over my addiction." "Only a higher power can help me." "I will never not be an addict." I know it has helped some people, but I didn't like the tone. Just my opinion, though. Whatever works. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
AA is a bunch of bullshit. Telling people they are not capable of handling themselves and they must submit to something else for strength isn't empowering, it's a transaction where they try to trade one crutch for another. Im so tired of victimization in all its forms, especially AfuckingA. AA certainly doesn't encourage people to claim they are victims, if that's what you mean. Actually the opposite. Not from what I saw when I went to a meeting with my mom. "I'm powerless over my addiction." "Only a higher power can help me." "I will never not be an addict." I know it has helped some people, but I didn't like the tone. Just my opinion, though. Whatever works. I thought you were saying AA allowed people to blame others or circumstances beyond their control for their actions. I see what you meant now. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:55:33 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
well, there is the anecdtal expericne of some random guy and there is double blind repetable scientific research. Its not surpriseing that in your experience, in the US the predomanance of AA thinking and its various concepts such as "hitting bottom" "one an alcaholic always an alcaholic" etc have so permutated our culture, partially through this congressional funding arrangement setup by that Iowa senator described in the article, that most people are unaware that there are alternatives that are the producs of real scientific research. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Other than AA, a serious gutter ball event, or religious conversion, or some combination of the proceedings death is the only cure for true drunks that I know of. well, there is the anecdtal expericne of some random guy and there is double blind repetable scientific research. Its not surpriseing that in your experience, in the US the predomanance of AA thinking and its various concepts such as "hitting bottom" "one an alcaholic always an alcaholic" etc have so permutated our culture, partially through this congressional funding arrangement setup by that Iowa senator described in the article, that most people are unaware that there are alternatives that are the producs of real scientific research. Well it sure seems to work for people who want it to work. Like most things. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:55:56 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the point is there is more than one way to treat alcohol addiction. I just said that! |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:58:10 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well it sure seems to work for people who want it to work. Like most things. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Other than AA, a serious gutter ball event, or religious conversion, or some combination of the proceedings death is the only cure for true drunks that I know of. well, there is the anecdtal expericne of some random guy and there is double blind repetable scientific research. Its not surpriseing that in your experience, in the US the predomanance of AA thinking and its various concepts such as "hitting bottom" "one an alcaholic always an alcaholic" etc have so permutated our culture, partially through this congressional funding arrangement setup by that Iowa senator described in the article, that most people are unaware that there are alternatives that are the producs of real scientific research. Well it sure seems to work for people who want it to work. Like most things. So does just quitting. In my experience I saw a LOT of miserable people feigning happiness through the program, a few who really took it to heart and changed their thinking, and quite a few who actually had their progress hindered or damaged by AA. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:58:23 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Addicts are addicts. AA is meant to help people quit, it's a support group to help stay sober. Noone goes to AA to quit drinking, they go to get support to stay sober. ^ This. Some people simply can't handle drinking in any form. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 12:59:23 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I disagree. I used to drink like a fish, I simply got tired of headaches every morning and slowly cut down. Now it's unusual if I even have a drink a week. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Other than AA, a serious gutter ball event, or religious conversion, or some combination of the proceedings death is the only cure for true drunks that I know of. I disagree. I used to drink like a fish, I simply got tired of headaches every morning and slowly cut down. Now it's unusual if I even have a drink a week. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:04:25 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was in and out of rehabs and jail for years dealing with my issues with alcohol. I have done 90 meetings in 90 days, and been to both AA focused and non AA rehabs. I just ticked past two years of sobriety, and have made a 180 degree turnaround in my life. I personally am not an AA guy. The program emphasizes with every mantra, every chant, every meeting, the philosophy that you have no control over yourself. That the addiction is stronger than you are, that you are a victim of a disease, that you can't control yourself, that only AA can help, over and over and over again. This never jived with me. I had to learn that life requires me to be in control of myself, it requires me to stand by my convictions, it requires me to make an effort, and it requires me to take the good with the bad and shrug it off. Being happy and content means understanding that you can do anything, including quitting drinking, if you put your mind to it. I learned to believe in myself, and as a result I quit drinking and drew myself up out of a deep, lifelong depression. I believe AA sets many people up to fail in this manner. It doesn't reaffirm the individual, it doesn't enforce that YES! you can fucking do it. It just dwells on, and constantly fetishizes, the addiction. I saw time and time again, if a person found themselves in a situation where they had a beer, mentally they had BAM gone back to square negative 100, and instead of exhibiting any kind of self control, just gave in and went on a destructive bender. The mindset is not, "adapt, learn, improve" it is "come to meetings or fall into the pit of despair and doom." I wanted to move on in my life, I want'ed to be normal, I wanted to be happy. The last thing I want to do now is sit in a room and think solely about alcohol, about addiction, about that next drink. I have a life to live. Also, the rate of success for people seeking to quit drinking is the same, regardless of what method they choose to use. Simply deciding to quit, going to rehab, or attending AA all have about a 5% success rate. You have to make up your mind to do it! Damn proud that you're one of the 5%. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:06:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well it sure seems to work for people who want it to work. Like most things. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Other than AA, a serious gutter ball event, or religious conversion, or some combination of the proceedings death is the only cure for true drunks that I know of. well, there is the anecdtal expericne of some random guy and there is double blind repetable scientific research. Its not surpriseing that in your experience, in the US the predomanance of AA thinking and its various concepts such as "hitting bottom" "one an alcaholic always an alcaholic" etc have so permutated our culture, partially through this congressional funding arrangement setup by that Iowa senator described in the article, that most people are unaware that there are alternatives that are the producs of real scientific research. Well it sure seems to work for people who want it to work. Like most things. so, what you are saying is that it is 100% successful, 5% of the time? |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:07:45 AM EDT
[#35]
I learned about it all in mandatory rehab...I was bad when I was younger
 from going to meetings, I have seen some people treat it like it's a religion. The one rehab I went to was a protege´ of Bills. All I can say is that he had brainwashed his self. I can understand it giving solace to those that neeed that sort of thing, but I did.not.like it.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:08:32 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so, what you are saying is that it is 100% successful, 5% of the time? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Other than AA, a serious gutter ball event, or religious conversion, or some combination of the proceedings death is the only cure for true drunks that I know of. well, there is the anecdtal expericne of some random guy and there is double blind repetable scientific research. Its not surpriseing that in your experience, in the US the predomanance of AA thinking and its various concepts such as "hitting bottom" "one an alcaholic always an alcaholic" etc have so permutated our culture, partially through this congressional funding arrangement setup by that Iowa senator described in the article, that most people are unaware that there are alternatives that are the producs of real scientific research. Well it sure seems to work for people who want it to work. Like most things. so, what you are saying is that it is 100% successful, 5% of the time? I'm saying it works for people who try. I've seen it work for a lot of people. I've seen it not work for a lot of people. That's how pretty much all rehab is. It works for the people who want it to work and put in the effort. You want to find something to complain about, complain about NA. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:09:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AA is a bunch of bullshit. Telling people they are not capable of handling themselves and they must submit to something else for strength isn't empowering, it's a transaction where they try to trade one crutch for another. Im so tired of victimization in all its forms, especially AfuckingA. That's a bunch of hatred you're harboring there. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:10:10 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AA is a bunch of bullshit. Telling people they are not capable of handling themselves and they must submit to something else for strength isn't empowering, it's a transaction where they try to trade one crutch for another. Im so tired of victimization in all its forms, especially AfuckingA. Well said. It is a bunch of bullshit. Take control of your life... or don't and make lame excuses... Only one of those two options is going to get you anywhere. On that note, I need a refill! |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:12:35 AM EDT
[#39]
It seems AA has it right in so far as it acknowledges that the problem is not merely moral/spritual but is also a that it has a biiological component (its a disease), but it then fails to treat it as a medical issue, offering only a one size fits all moral/spiritual solution.
That and the whole way it insiste that everyone wear the lable of alchaholic for hte rest of their life regardless of hwere they may be on a spectrum. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:15:54 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AA certainly doesn't encourage people to claim they are victims, if that's what you mean. Actually the opposite. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: AA is a bunch of bullshit. Telling people they are not capable of handling themselves and they must submit to something else for strength isn't empowering, it's a transaction where they try to trade one crutch for another. Im so tired of victimization in all its forms, especially AfuckingA. AA certainly doesn't encourage people to claim they are victims, if that's what you mean. Actually the opposite. Really? I thought that admitting one is powerless over their "disease" was one of the steps. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:16:14 AM EDT
[#41]
hallucinogens can treat PTSD and addiction. Sadly, research was sorta curb stomped when the .gov outlawed everything.
It's recently being studied again. http://www.voanews.com/content/scientists-explore-hallucinogen-treatments-for-ptsd-sex-abuse-victims-142648416/181034.html |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:16:16 AM EDT
[#42]
It's not a fucking disease. That's just what weak people tell themselves so they don't feel like such pieces of shit.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:16:34 AM EDT
[#43]
Sorry, alcoholism can't be a disease if the cure is going to meetings in order to have a spiritual awakening. Imagine if we gave someone some treatment for cancer and when it failed we told them it was because they just didn't want it bad enough.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:18:10 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, alcoholism can't be a disease if the cure is going to meetings in order to have a spiritual awakening. Imagine if we gave someone some treatment for cancer and when it failed we told them it was because they just didn't want it bad enough. Exactly. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:18:34 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry, alcoholism can't be a disease if the cure is going to meetings in order to have a spiritual awakening. Imagine if we gave someone some treatment for cancer and when it failed we told them it was because they just didn't want it bad enough. "Disease" has more definitions than what you're implying. It is used in our culture in a variety of ways and has been for many generations. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:19:24 AM EDT
[#46]
Rational Recovery Ever wonder why alcoholics and problem drinkers drink so much? It’s because alcohol produces in them a pleasure greater than all others — an unspoken pleasure far greater than the normal survival drives of sex, eating, family life, the desire to succeed in life, and physical safety. The resulting drive to repeat that pleasure is proportionately stronger than normal survival drives. Alcohol is a synthetic, man-made substance, among a group of synthetic drugs that produce pleasure greater than evolution has prepared us to manage, a disorienting pleasure that causes one's moral compass to point south toward death rather than toward true north and life. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:19:28 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
think I will have a beer Have three or four. Rehab is for quitters anyway! |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:19:38 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not a fucking disease. That's just what weak people tell themselves so they don't feel like such pieces of shit. You don't think mental illness exists? Have you heard about liberals? |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:21:37 AM EDT
[#49]
Alcoholism is as much a disease as being an asshole.
AA works. We can debate the underpinnings of it, but it works. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:22:31 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Disease" has more definitions than what you're implying. It is used in our culture in a variety of ways and has been for many generations. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Sorry, alcoholism can't be a disease if the cure is going to meetings in order to have a spiritual awakening. Imagine if we gave someone some treatment for cancer and when it failed we told them it was because they just didn't want it bad enough. "Disease" has more definitions than what you're implying. It is used in our culture in a variety of ways and has been for many generations. I don't think "you didn't believe in God hard enough" is a disease, sorry. I do think alcoholism is a disease, I don't think it can be treated with 'willpower' or religion any more than any other disease. I think that's maybe one notch above exorcisms for schizophrenia. |
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