My children have repugnant behavior. My son is highly disrespectful (argues, name calls (especially to me), rolls eyes, mimics, etc.) and rude to adults (especially me). He is on a behavior chart at school and a day never goes by where he doesn't get minuses for poor behavior (disrespectful to school staff, arguing with teachers, blurting, etc.). If a week goes by and he isn't sent to the principal's office at least twice for a time out (just get him out of the classroom) I would be amazed. My son also seems incapable of connecting his bad behavior to consequences. If he gets punished for bad behavior he doesn't seem to understand it is because of his behavior. Instead, he believes 100% that his punishment is because the teachers, or I, am "mean" to him.



My daughter is much less of a behavior concern than my son, unless the two of them are within ten feet of each other. At school she is fine - no behavior issues. At home she can be stubborn, but she eventually does what you ask of her. But get the two of them together and it's like a violent chemical reaction. They literally cannot stop pestering each other, hitting, kicking, making faces, name calling, etc. About the only time they cease trying to maim each other if is they are playing on their handheld video game things.



Last night my wife came home in tears from the kids' 4H meeting. They were supposed to visit a retirement home to play Bingo and help the residents. My son the entire time kept lamenting aloud how "bored he was," and "when were they going to go home." Eventually my wife sat him in the corner so she and my daughter could play Bingo and help the residents. At the end of the night some of the kids from the 4H club put on a play for the residents. My kids, in the audience, were kicking, pushing, and pestering each other. Eventually my wife had to separate them on opposite side of the room until the play ended. And on the drive home the kids went at it again like lions and hyenas. After being grounded once they kept at it so they got grounded again. Both were very unhappy when they got home, and when I spoke with them my daughter understood she was grounded due to bad behavior, but said her behavior was "because of her brother bothering her." And my son complained that "Mom grounded me for no reason at all! She is mean!" Even after we clearly explained to him why he was grounded I could tell he wasn't making the connection.



What have we tried over the ~4 years this behavior has been occurring? Time-outs, spankings, grounding off favorite things, behavior charts, and 1-2-3 Magic. Consistent? Yes we are. Model good behavior ourselves? Very much so. Stable loving home? Yes. Spoiled kids? Probably a little, but far less than other families in our income bracket. Both my kids are doing very well academically, scoring well above average on their achievement exams.



Einstein once said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I feel like I'm living proof of this. After ~4 years of dealing with this with no improvement my wife and I are at our wits' end. I guess we thought if we modeled good behavior, were consistent in our punishment of bad behavior, and rewarded good behavior, given time they would mature out of it. This has not been the case. My son is 10 1/2 yrs old, and my daughter turns 9 in a few weeks.



Any parents who dealt with behavior issue with your offspring have some advice on what to try? Because I'm all ears. Oh, and for the "beat your kids" crowd, yeah we spanked, and spanked, but it never resulted in them learning from their mistakes and not replicating bad behavior.        



For the tl;dr crowd - 10 1/2 and 9 yr old kids have bad behavior; we punish consistently (ground, spank (though very infrequently anymore), time outs, etc.); model good behavior ourselves; but nothing works. Seeking advice on what to try next.



Thanks!

Whip the shit out of them.

OP, you've already lost. The time to shape their minds/morals is long gone.

I remember having an attitude similar to what you are describing for a time when I was younger.  The way my parents solved it was to intensify the spankings.  They were always very consistent but I clearly remember the day my dad had enough.  That spanking was biblical.

Drugs

Make their lives unbearably un pleasant. It's the only way to correct confrontational behavior issues.

Bare rooms, Bland food, endless chores, no activities, no communication with friends.

They one upped and y'all blinked.

One of them will break first, and start getting the good life back - the other will follow shortly.

Sounds like kids need to have everything they enjoy taken from them until they see the error of their ways.  No I am not a parent but I know what worked on me.

Beat that ass.

Then beat that ass.

Then beat that ass like a step child in public.

Then pack up their clothes and drop them off down the street.

call a local large church and ask if they have a counseling program (real licensed counselor, not pastoral staff).  Start there, we had a couple issues with my daughter that got cleaned up real quick with just a little help.  And it wasn't a minor issue.

My first response was sort of in jest, but seriously I acted like a little shit a few times when I was young, lied to my dad and shit thinking I could get away with it about two times.

Both times were a few years apart, around age 9 I'd say. First time I directly lied to him I got a solid spanking, second time I lied to him I the belting of the ages, never lied after that, I said to myself "as it turns out you're not wiser than dad, and you won't get away with shit, also it hurts like a motherfucker when you do dumb shit and lie about it.".

That was the end of my being a little shit, nothing but respect and following of rules from then on out.

Tried that. Didn't work. At one point I started using this perfect length bamboo back-scratcher, at least up until that whole thing went down with Adrian Peterson and then my wife said no more back-scratcher. But we also realized spanking had no better affect on them than grounding. So we don't spank any longer.



 

If they're really intelligent, then they are not seeing an overall pattern of action-response in their lives. The school system and government/media short circuit the appropriate responses to bad behavior and bad grades by slacking off on the ones needing punishment/feedback (lowering standards) and punishing the intelligent/well-behaved (with group assignments in school with group grades).

Maybe look at how sane their lives in and outside of the home are and evaluate if you are better off home schooling or putting them in a more rational private school.

ETA: And read The Beekeepers response above mine--although it is kind of retrospective.

So you gonna share the story or leave us hanging bro?

How old before military school?

Thoughts->Actions->Habits->Character

You need to find a way to get inside that loop.

I would ask:

What music, tv, movies, video games, online content are they consuming? How often and how long?

What responsibilities do they have around the home?

What kind of people are they interacting with in their environment at home/school?

I have a friend who was in a similar situation with a 15 year old daughter. The catalyst for change was actually following an effective morning routine that involved getting up before any school commitments and exercising, reading or listening to helpful uplifting content, some exercise, and a bit of journaling.

The change was remarkable. The book they used to base their routine was by Hal Elrod, The Miracle Morning.

I am not able to offer a solution. Our children are now 16 and 18 and we did not have to deal with the issues you listed.
While they were younger (6/8?) we took a class called "Love and Logic". Link here.
Our class was free throught the church but they have many options...here is a webenar that may be what your looking for link 2.

From what I have read, you and your wife sound like great folks. (ignore the crap from the GD crowd).
I do believe the Love and Logic approach would be a tool. (perhaps I do have a solution?).
I'll also add, check the kids our with their Dr. to make sure all is good to go...No, not suggesting drugs.

Good luck and keep up the good fight.

Not giving up. I have a few sayings I relentlessly repeat with my kids. Like when they are doing chores or homework I always tell them "If you are going to do a job you do it right, and do it right the first time." I hope one day it will sink in. So far after close to 8 years it hasn't, yet.



 

I'm not sure what to tell you the, I know when I was a kid I only had to get spanked twice (belted the second time) to say fuck that shit.

Maybe it didn't hurt enough?

If they think they can do shit, and then they can get away with doing shit, they will. You've gotta be a fucking nazi if thats the game they want to play, every little thing they do you grab them and bend them right the fuck over, and make sure it hurts.

Then a few minutes later after they've calmed down and stopped crying, go back to them and explain to them what they did wrong and make sure they understand what they did wrong. Then tell them you love them and give them a big hug and a kiss and go do something fun with them.

Every time they start picking at each other and fighting and all that shit, just make them hold hands and not speak.  This works okay at home but fantastic in public.    

My son has ADHD, and ODD. No drugs for the ODD, but he is on something for his ADHD and it helps tremendously. The difference between him pre-morning medication and post is night and day. In the mornings when he wakes up, and for about 60-90 minutes before his meds kick in, he is like a feral animal bouncing off the walls. Has this Lord of the Flies look in his eyes. Then the meds kick in and he becomes somewhat normal.



 

take away everything they have. everything but a bed. not even a door to the bedroom

wake him earlier to take meds, then back to sleep.

I came to post this.

But your post makes it obvious that's not your style of parenting.  

Good luck

Exactly.

You neglected to put the fear of god in them early, OP. You've got 10x more work to do now.

Oh, I count down for my kids, but I mean it.


For everything, I ask nicely the first time.

Then I tell you to do it.

Then I count.  You get five.  If I get to zero, I make you do it, and you've not going to be happy.

Yup.  That taught me humility real quick.

No more privileges especially electronic devices and social activities.
More chores and homework.
If so inclined children's Sunday school.
Even though I endured corporal punishment, I don't recommend it.
You can't say "Don't hit your sister! " as you are hitting your son.  It's hypocritical.

Basic requirements are food, clothing, shelter.

I would strip their rooms down to a bed, blankets and pillow.  Buy 7 k-mart type jeans and a plain white collar shirt to match with black shoes and wear the same outfit everyday.  Lunch is bologna sandwiches, apple and some crackers in a brown paper bag.

Your son sounds like me when I was young.


So, rest assurred, he'll be fine.

Time to change your tactics. Police call it a clue when you keep doing the same shit over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and it doesn't work.

Spankings shouldn't be about pain, but about shame. That's why the parent tells the kid to go cut a switch or bring them the belt. It's part of the ritual.

Sounds like the kids learned they can out stubborn the parents in this case?

When our kids were toddlers none of these issues had manifested yet. Sure they did some stuff that typical toddlers do, and we reprimanded them appropriately with the occasional spanking, reinforcing "no" and taking away stuff. And by no means were our kids spoiled and indulged in their toddler years. Our income simply didn't allow it at the time.



 

It is also helpful for parents to sit down with each kid in the family once a week individually to hold a "weekly review" to discuss how the last week went, make some goals, etc. this ensures everyone is on the same page, reiterates what consequences for different actions (good and bad) will be.

OP, Author Andy Andrews has some helpful material you may find applicable to your situation.

Search for his weekly podcast and he covers many of the challenges you are facing.

Also, this may be useful. http://www.andyandrews.com/downloads/print/AA_SevenDecisions.pdf

I'm not a parent or a mental health professional, but it sounds like your son might have some serious problems. Not being able to process that the punishment is a result of the bad behavior is troubling, IMO. Getting sent out of class multiple times a week? Yikes. Maybe professional help is in order.

I meant for you.

Are your children getting enough activity? Growing up mom would kick us out of the house and tell us to be home for lunch.
Wear their asses out.

SELL EVERYTHING THEY THINK THEY OWN.


Use the money for something for YOU AND THE WIFE.


Setup a Garage sale with sign that says


"Bad Kids' Sale!"

"Kids won't behave so we are selling their toys"



Go Viral.


Profit.

That probably should have been mentioned in the first place.

Can't live with 'em, can't stuff 'em in a bag.

NM.

We used James Dobson's Dare to Discipline guidelines with great success.
I was also very much aware that by the time they were 5......the idea of parental leadership was pretty well fixed.

Now I train big ass (sometimes) belligerent horses. Same principles. I ask (making sure they understand what I'm asking) I tell, I MAKE it happen. Horses are ALWAYS challenging leadership so it's a good fit.

It is also possible that you have not discovered what really floats THEIR boat......what makes them tick......what THEY want to do.  Ask them. Or.....

Threaten to send them to me for the summer. I'll put them to work cleaning horse stalls in the 100 degree/100% humidity with bugs.

Son is medicated for his ADHD, but I (and the psychiatrist) think the majority of his behavior issues are unrelated. When my kids are apart (son gone on a sleep over at a friends) my daughter has almost no behavior problems. When my daughter is gone, my son's behavior issues still exist (but things are much calmer since he and his sister aren't going at it like cats and dogs).  



 

At this point, the fear s not there, so I'd go with the aforementioned make their life as miserable as possible. Bare rooms, etc.

To new parents with really little kids: my wife was pissed at me at the time, but every day now at age 12 and 9 she thanks me that back in the day I acted like theAangry God of Abraham.

Sadly, pretty much this:  growing up, my folks did their job from day one (and from day one, I didn't know the difference).  The few (and I mean very few), there was the necessary 'attitude adjustment' growing up (the last I remember at about age 12): I was never 'beat' but physical punishment was both frightening and severe with follow up --------- others would disagree, but I think I turned out well .  If you have any time left, the door is closing quickly .............  best of luck.

Is kiddie boot camp still a thing?  I assume they're too old to beat the shit out of plus with the libtards these days you'd be on death row if the kids squealed.  I bet a British nanny would set them straight.

FPNI

Followed by nothin in their rooms but a desk and lamp, mattress on the floor with a single blanket. No pillow either.

The trick to discipline is to be firm and more importantly, consistent.  Not only that, it must be right after they exhibit bad behavior

Not 5 mins later, not 2 mins later, right away and mean it.  Also, never apologize after, no matter how bad you might feel.

I needed the belt exactly one time before I decided I didn't want that again.

Something you posted a couple of weeks ago really bothered me.  

In the thread about sending messages to our past selves you wrote, "Don't have kids with your wife - you will both regret it because they will ruin your marriage and sex life and just make you both bitter people."


That stayed with me for days and I felt so bad for your kids.  Now that I know what you're dealing with it makes a little more sense but you have to wonder if the attitude that they're all trouble just feeds into it.

We have three kids and they all have completely different personalities.  The youngest was a handful from the time she was born.  It was a running joke around here, her nickname was Baby Hulk because of her anger issues (and freakish strength) and how she was only happy if there was something to be miserable about.  At any rate, almost overnight when she turned 4 years old she transformed into a different child.  She's actually pleasant to be around and she's turning into a darn good kid.  

What I honestly feel has made the biggest difference is, she told us that it hurt her feelings when we would talk or joke about her bad attitude and such.  We didn't really mean it in a *negative* way-----as far as we were concerned it was just part of who she was and talking/joking about it was no different than when we'd talk/joke about our oldest daughter being obsessed with dinosaurs or our middle daughter walking on her tippy toes 24/7.  But it apparently was having an effect on her.  We apologized and have made a concerted effort to not focus on those things and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that it's a big reason why she also strives for better behavior.  

Anyway, just tossing out the idea that it's likely the kids pick up on the negative vibes and it gives them no incentive to want to change.  I just know that it's far easier to change my own outlook and reactions to things than to change someone else's.

I see your son has clinical issues also.
My wife is a nutrition major.
You would be amazed by how much children's behavior is affected by the food they consume particularly overprocessed food.
Talk to a nutrition expert in your area to analyze his diet.   Garbage in, garbage out.