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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:30:35 PM EDT
Posted this in AR Discussion as well, but this place has more traffic. Frustrating day at the range. Went to sight in my new Eotech exps 2-0. Before any of this I sighted in at 25yds to what I thought was acceptable. Was nailing clays with one shots and destroying them. Decided to move out to 50yds and things got interesting. Basically even after some adjustments I was all over the place. Brought it back in to 25yds and here are my targets from that.
Rifle: Barrel - Spikes Tactical 14.5" Upper midlength 1/7 twist w/ pinned a2x Upper - Spikes Tactical flat top upper Lower - Preban Trigger - Wilson Combat single stage Ammo used: Federal Bulk 223 55gr 
Bench shooting using the little nub on the left for barrel support 
The five shot group in the center of the target is from 50 yards out. I then moved it back into 25 yards and all the corner groups are at 25 yards. 
Then moved back out to 50 yards and just did one five shot group before I packed up and left. 
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:33:33 PM EDT
[#1]
Loose mount
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:33:45 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:34:07 PM EDT
[#3]
You were resting the barrel on that nub? That could be part of your issue. Why are you resting the barrel on something (putting downward pressure on a warm barrel) when you have a freefloat handguard? That can easily account for the larger/unpredictable group. Also could be the mount as mentioned earlier - though I would have assumed you checked that.
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:34:24 PM EDT
[#4]
Put some real glass on it like a 25x to see if its you or the eotech. If you can stack them with good glass, then you can't aim with a huge EO tech dot, however that is actually good shooting at 100 with no magnification. I would be happy with that.
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:34:44 PM EDT
[#5]
Get an actual bench rest for the rifle and see what it does at 50. Zero it at 50, and see what it does at 25. That's what I'd do anyways. Probably better advice out there.
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:35:34 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Put some real glass on it like a 25x to see if its you or the eotech. If you can stack them with good glass, then you can't aim with a huge EO tech dot, however that is actually good shooting at 100 with no magnification. I would be happy with that. EOTech center dots are 1MOA. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:36:40 PM EDT
[#7]
Are you Michael J. Fox?
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:37:54 PM EDT
[#8]
It might have been what you were using as a support, lay on the ground in the prone with a sand bag or something for support, and follow basic marksmanship principles. You should be on unless there is something wrong with the weapon, optics, or the way you are shooting.
99 times out of 100 though it is the shooters fault and not the weapon though. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:38:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Something is loose. Optic, barrel, check everything.
Or maybe you can't shoot for shit. 
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:39:26 PM EDT
[#10]
In for advice. I'm still getting the hang of bench rest shooting and occasionally have similar groups.
I know one time I was resting the rifle more or less on the magazine rather than the handguard on the bag. Fixed my technique and groups tightened up instantly. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:39:39 PM EDT
[#11]
So how does the rifle shoot with the iron sites at those distances?
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:41:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So how does the rifle shoot with the iron sites at those distances? I will have to test that next week at the range. That would of been the logical thing to try. Or try with my XTR 1-4x. But I am not logical
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:42:05 PM EDT
[#13]
As said above - for me this is always the result of something loose - more than likely the optic.
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:45:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I will have to test that next week at the range. That would of been the logical thing to try. Or try with my XTR 1-4x. But I am not logical Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So how does the rifle shoot with the iron sites at those distances? I will have to test that next week at the range. That would of been the logical thing to try. Or try with my XTR 1-4x. But I am not logical You need to see the rifles best, so shoot it with high magnification glass. If it does better, then its you. If not, investigate the rifle, don't waist time. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:49:36 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As said above - for me this is always the result of something loose - more than likely the optic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
As said above - for me this is always the result of something loose - more than likely the optic. I just tightened the optic one click, but it was on there pretty tight. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So how does the rifle shoot with the iron sites at those distances? I will have to test that next week at the range. That would of been the logical thing to try. Or try with my XTR 1-4x. But I am not logical You need to see the rifles best, so shoot it with high magnification glass. If it does better, then its you. If not, investigate the rifle, don't waist time. I don't have a high power glass. Just a Burris XTR 1-4x. I will try that out next range trip with some better ammo. Your barrel might not care for that ammo. Try something else.
Don't rest the barrel on anything. Rest on the handguard. Check that your barrel nut is torqued properly. I bought a PSA upper last year that was giving me vertical strings. Found that the barrel nut was just probably hand tightened. Corrected that and it shoots great. Barrel nut should be torqued correctly. I used a torque wrench. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:49:53 PM EDT
[#16]
Your barrel might not care for that ammo. Try something else.
Don't rest the barrel on anything. Rest on the handguard. Check that your barrel nut is torqued properly. I bought a PSA upper last year that was giving me vertical strings. Found that the barrel nut was just probably hand tightened. Corrected that and it shoots great. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:50:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Holo sights require a consistent anchor point. I don't care what it says about parallax free to infinity. I've had EO's and operated friends EO's and other holo's. Consistent anchor point is more vital with holo's than traditional optics in my experience.
I no longer use Holographic sights because i just could not achieve the same accuracy as with traditional optics. But that's just me, others do well and like them just fine. I have a friend that has not been able to group at 100yds since he installed his EO. I would start by putting a piece of tape on your stock. Make sure that tape touches your cheek in the exact same spot every single time and shoot your group. ETA: Of course after checking nothing is lose |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:51:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Holo sights require a consistent anchor point. I don't care what it says about parallax free to infinity. I've had EO's and operated friends EO's and other holo's. Consistent anchor point is more vital with holo's than traditional optics in my experience. I no longer use Holographic sights because i just could not achieve the same accuracy as with traditional optics. But that's just me, others do well and like them just fine. I have a friend that has not been able to group at 100yds since he installed his EO. I would start by putting a piece of tape on your stock. Make sure that tape touches your cheek in the exact same spot every single time and shoot your group. Thanks I will try the tape approach as well. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 3:54:15 PM EDT
[#19]
I had a similar problem with a free floated hbar.
Turns out there was a 1\8 inch gap between crown and base of flash hider. Replaced A2 fh with an SEI Vortex that was flush with muzzle, problem solved. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:10:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Something is LOOSE, you have what, a 6" + verticle spread between the first 50yd and the 2nd, Also where did the 2 shots on the top RT of the top target? ? barely caught the paper
You should be able to have the 25 yd group at 50yds easy with the XPS |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:20:30 PM EDT
[#21]
1-7 twist does not work well with 55gr anything
1-7 needs a heavier bullet, try 69 gr Sierras |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:23:17 PM EDT
[#22]
If something was loose, wouldn't my 25 yard groups look like my 50 yard groups though?
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:25:32 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're a terrible shot, your barrel nut is loose, your optic mount is loose, or God hates you. Maybe a combination of those. Sort of agree. Not sure what dialing an optic in at different ranges has to do with loose groups? Unless you were making sight corrections after every round. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:27:44 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1-7 twist does not work well with 55gr anything 1-7 needs a heavier bullet, try 69 gr Sierras That's BS. My 20" 1/7 loves M193. Both LC and Prvi. But that's why I mentioned OP should try different ammo. Some barrels just don't like certain loads. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:29:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1-7 twist does not work well with 55gr anything 1-7 needs a heavier bullet, try 69 gr Sierras Go home unclejoe, you're drunk |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:29:53 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1-7 twist does not work well with 55gr anything 1-7 needs a heavier bullet, try 69 gr Sierras OP needs a real bench shooting rest. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:36:18 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
EOTech center dots are 1MOA. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Put some real glass on it like a 25x to see if its you or the eotech. If you can stack them with good glass, then you can't aim with a huge EO tech dot, however that is actually good shooting at 100 with no magnification. I would be happy with that. EOTech center dots are 1MOA. But is the shooter able of 1MOA |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:46:30 PM EDT
[#28]
That hard support will cause vertical stringing. Lateral stringing, too, if the gun contacts the support on the side.
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:48:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But is the shooter able of 1MOA Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Put some real glass on it like a 25x to see if its you or the eotech. If you can stack them with good glass, then you can't aim with a huge EO tech dot, however that is actually good shooting at 100 with no magnification. I would be happy with that. EOTech center dots are 1MOA. But is the shooter able of 1MOA No idea - just referring to the fact that he said that OP can't aim with the "huge EO Tech dot" |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:51:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Double check everything for tightness, and if you can not swap to a higher magnification optic to check it out, have someone else who is familiar and proficient with an eotech shoot the rifle.
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:54:36 PM EDT
[#31]
My experience with Federal American Eagle, if that is what you are using, was crap. Couldn't believe how bad the ammo was .
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:57:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Lol, you are either really shitty at shooting or your gun is a piece of shit.
I am glad I don't have either problem. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:58:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're a terrible shot, your barrel nut is loose, your optic mount is loose, or God hates you. Maybe a combination of those. All of these . |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 4:59:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Barrel twist ? 1/7 1/9 ? Maybe that
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Posted: 7/20/2014 5:01:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Loose mount Whenever I can't figure out something like this it ends up being a loose optic. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 8:21:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My experience with Federal American Eagle, if that is what you are using, was crap. Couldn't believe how bad the ammo was . |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 8:30:43 PM EDT
[#37]
I'm betting on shitty ammo + followthru/trigger issue + sight picture variance due to the Eotech dot.
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Posted: 7/20/2014 8:34:37 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1-7 twist does not work well with 55gr anything 1-7 needs a heavier bullet, try 69 gr Sierras Bullshit. By far Get off the internet, and go shoot. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 8:53:35 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol, you are either really shitty at shooting or your gun is a piece of shit. I am glad I don't have either problem. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 8:53:55 PM EDT
[#40]
How is your vision?
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Posted: 7/20/2014 8:54:01 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1-7 twist does not work well with 55gr anything 1-7 needs a heavier bullet, try 69 gr Sierras American Rifleman, June 2014 issue, pg 60-61 reports that the new "green" M855A1 is significantly less accurate in 1:7 twist barrels than it is in 1:9 barrels. I have no data to either verify or discount their report. I don't think this has anything to do with OP's problem. As mentioned above, don't ever rest the barrel on a support. Whenever possible, rest the handguard or stock on something soft, like a sandbag, or even a glove, between the stock and a hard surface. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 8:57:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
American Rifleman, June 2014 issue, pg 60-61 reports that the new "green" M855A1 is significantly less accurate in 1:7 twist barrels than it is in 1:9 barrels. I have no data to either verify or discount their report. I don't think this has anything to do with OP's problem. As mentioned above, don't ever rest the barrel on a support. Whenever possible, rest the handguard or stock on something soft, like a sandbag, or even a glove, between the stock and a hard surface. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
1-7 twist does not work well with 55gr anything 1-7 needs a heavier bullet, try 69 gr Sierras American Rifleman, June 2014 issue, pg 60-61 reports that the new "green" M855A1 is significantly less accurate in 1:7 twist barrels than it is in 1:9 barrels. I have no data to either verify or discount their report. I don't think this has anything to do with OP's problem. As mentioned above, don't ever rest the barrel on a support. Whenever possible, rest the handguard or stock on something soft, like a sandbag, or even a glove, between the stock and a hard surface. Wouldn't even come into effect 50 yards. There's a more glaring issue at play here than barrel twist. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 8:59:09 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
American Rifleman, June 2014 issue, pg 60-61 reports that the new "green" M855A1 is significantly less accurate in 1:7 twist barrels than it is in 1:9 barrels. I have no data to either verify or discount their report. I don't think this has anything to do with OP's problem. As mentioned above, don't ever rest the barrel on a support. Whenever possible, rest the handguard or stock on something soft, like a sandbag, or even a glove, between the stock and a hard surface. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
1-7 twist does not work well with 55gr anything 1-7 needs a heavier bullet, try 69 gr Sierras American Rifleman, June 2014 issue, pg 60-61 reports that the new "green" M855A1 is significantly less accurate in 1:7 twist barrels than it is in 1:9 barrels. I have no data to either verify or discount their report. I don't think this has anything to do with OP's problem. As mentioned above, don't ever rest the barrel on a support. Whenever possible, rest the handguard or stock on something soft, like a sandbag, or even a glove, between the stock and a hard surface. WTF does M855A1 have to do with anything? It will never be surplused. No civilian had better even admit to possesing that stuff. |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 9:30:33 PM EDT
[#44]
I will heed a lot of the advice in here. There is a kickass gun shop down the road I will bring the upper in this week to have them once over everything. Before that, this Wednesday I am going to go back to the range and try again. Resting the rail on a sandbag or something of the like and trying a different ammo. Is a caldwell rest good enough? Just the one you fill with sand? Really all I have my disposal right now. Going to use my 1-4x scope as well to see what happens. Will report back.
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Posted: 7/20/2014 9:55:11 PM EDT
[#45]
i would shoot with irons first just to narrow down where the problem is
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Posted: 7/20/2014 9:57:07 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: American Rifleman, June 2014 issue, pg 60-61 reports that the new "green" M855A1 is significantly less accurate in 1:7 twist barrels than it is in 1:9 barrels. I have no data to either verify or discount their report. I don't think this has anything to do with OP's problem. As mentioned above, don't ever rest the barrel on a support. Whenever possible, rest the handguard or stock on something soft, like a sandbag, or even a glove, between the stock and a hard surface. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 1-7 twist does not work well with 55gr anything 1-7 needs a heavier bullet, try 69 gr Sierras American Rifleman, June 2014 issue, pg 60-61 reports that the new "green" M855A1 is significantly less accurate in 1:7 twist barrels than it is in 1:9 barrels. I have no data to either verify or discount their report. I don't think this has anything to do with OP's problem. As mentioned above, don't ever rest the barrel on a support. Whenever possible, rest the handguard or stock on something soft, like a sandbag, or even a glove, between the stock and a hard surface. i read that too. they said that M855 shoots worse groups from 1:7 barrels than 1:9 and M855A1 does even more poorly none of that has anything to do with this thread though... |
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Posted: 7/20/2014 10:33:30 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i read that too. they said that M855 shoots worse groups from 1:7 barrels than 1:9 and M855A1 does even more poorly none of that has anything to do with this thread though... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
1-7 twist does not work well with 55gr anything 1-7 needs a heavier bullet, try 69 gr Sierras American Rifleman, June 2014 issue, pg 60-61 reports that the new "green" M855A1 is significantly less accurate in 1:7 twist barrels than it is in 1:9 barrels. I have no data to either verify or discount their report. I don't think this has anything to do with OP's problem. As mentioned above, don't ever rest the barrel on a support. Whenever possible, rest the handguard or stock on something soft, like a sandbag, or even a glove, between the stock and a hard surface. i read that too. they said that M855 shoots worse groups from 1:7 barrels than 1:9 and M855A1 does even more poorly none of that has anything to do with this thread though... Right. They were talking about the new lead free "green" military round. Since there wasnt any lead in the round, the entire profile of the round was changed. Standard 55gr rounds that we shoot dont have an armor piercing tungsten core to throw off the balance. |
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Posted: 7/21/2014 6:03:29 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I will heed a lot of the advice in here. There is a kickass gun shop down the road I will bring the upper in this week to have them once over everything. Before that, this Wednesday I am going to go back to the range and try again. Resting the rail on a sandbag or something of the like and trying a different ammo. Is a caldwell rest good enough? Just the one you fill with sand? Really all I have my disposal right now. Going to use my 1-4x scope as well to see what happens. Will report back. A couple of fat towels or just about anything is an improvement over that wood support. |
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Posted: 7/21/2014 6:17:07 AM EDT
[#49]
If you were resting the actual barrel against that piece of wood, yeah, stop doing that. Use the handguard.
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Posted: 7/21/2014 6:22:25 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Right. They were talking about the new lead free "green" military round. Since there wasnt any lead in the round, the entire profile of the round was changed. Standard 55gr rounds that we shoot dont have an armor piercing tungsten core to throw off the balance. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 1-7 twist does not work well with 55gr anything 1-7 needs a heavier bullet, try 69 gr Sierras American Rifleman, June 2014 issue, pg 60-61 reports that the new "green" M855A1 is significantly less accurate in 1:7 twist barrels than it is in 1:9 barrels. I have no data to either verify or discount their report. I don't think this has anything to do with OP's problem. As mentioned above, don't ever rest the barrel on a support. Whenever possible, rest the handguard or stock on something soft, like a sandbag, or even a glove, between the stock and a hard surface. i read that too. they said that M855 shoots worse groups from 1:7 barrels than 1:9 and M855A1 does even more poorly none of that has anything to do with this thread though... Right. They were talking about the new lead free "green" military round. Since there wasnt any lead in the round, the entire profile of the round was changed. Standard 55gr rounds that we shoot dont have an armor piercing tungsten core to throw off the balance. neither the M855 or M855A1 have tungsten cores. M855 is steel and lead; M855A1 is steel and copper. the i think the point in AR was that 1:9 was more accurate for both 62 gr rounds and 1:7 was settled on just for the sake of stabilizing the longer tracer round, even though the cost was less accuracy |
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