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Posted: 4/18/2014 5:29:33 AM EDT
[#1]
There weren't a lot of swat teams back then were there?
We also gained a third of the population, nearly 100 million people. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 5:32:52 AM EDT
[#2]
More using Radley Balko as a source.
Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 5:35:06 AM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 4/18/2014 5:37:17 AM EDT
[#4]
Railroad Retirement Board I'm sure someone will be along shortly to make fun of anyone who is disturbed by this shit, dismissing it all as "cargo pants hysteria". |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 5:37:37 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. I'm sincerely curious; do you think Balko's work is flawed insofar as the statistics and incidents he cites? |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 5:37:38 AM EDT
[#6]
No.
But what about the Department of Agriculture, the Railroad Retirement Board, the Tennessee Valley Authority, the Office of Personnel Management, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service? All of these have their own SWAT units and are part of a worrying trend towards the militarization of federal agencies — not to mention local police forces. Ag has the Forest Service Rangers, so I wouldn't be surprised if they had some kind of special unit. The rest? Bullshit. An OIG is not a SWAT team. He's either lying or doesn't know what he's talking about. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 5:51:37 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sincerely curious; do you think Balko's work is flawed insofar as the statistics and incidents he cites? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. I'm sincerely curious; do you think Balko's work is flawed insofar as the statistics and incidents he cites? I know it is. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 5:53:12 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know it is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. I'm sincerely curious; do you think Balko's work is flawed insofar as the statistics and incidents he cites? I know it is. What did you think of this work on Cory Maye? |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 5:53:30 AM EDT
[#9]
Don't agree with it, disparage/kill that messenger.
Straight out of rules for radicals. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:00:24 AM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:04:36 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know it is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. I'm sincerely curious; do you think Balko's work is flawed insofar as the statistics and incidents he cites? I know it is. His statistical methods and sites are hilarious, not to say there aren't abuses; however, intellectual honesty helps. Only a few S.W.A.T. teams in the 1970's, no shit Sherlock. About as useful as saying that the majority of dog fights using jets escalated greatly between 1940 and 1970. I guess he likes to remember the golden age of policing in America. 
Or maybe the abuse of Sheriff's in the past without oversight, conduct of the FBI under Hoover and during prohibition, etc. Stop looking at the militarization/epuipment and look at the policy and political mindset. Sound like a bunch of antis who ban things because they look scary. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:08:38 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
 Quote HistoryI laughed out loud 
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:09:45 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. I'm sincerely curious; do you think Balko's work is flawed insofar as the statistics and incidents he cites? I know it is. What did you think of this work on Cory Maye? He was found gulity by a jury. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:11:47 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stop looking at the militarization/epuipment and look at the policy and political mindset. Sound like a bunch of antis who ban things because they look scary. That doesn't help the position of police in the least. Policy is simply a tool to get around Constitutional protections and political mindset is controlled by liberal CLEOs in the most populated areas and larger agencies which trickles down influence to the smaller organizations. So the equipment is being used far more dangerously than it was in the past. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:14:49 AM EDT
[#15]
Tennessee Valley Authority Involved in energy production - their team is most likely intended for defensive use in and around their facilities like the units operated by DoE. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:15:21 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
His statistical methods and sites are hilarious, not to say there aren't abuses; however, intellectual honesty helps. Only a few S.W.A.T. teams in the 1970's, no shit Sherlock. About as useful as saying that the majority of dog fights using jets escalated greatly between 1940 and 1970. I guess he likes to remember the golden age of policing in America. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Birmingham_campaign_dogs.jpg Or maybe the abuse of Sheriff's in the past without oversight, conduct of the FBI under Hoover and during prohibition, etc. Stop looking at the militarization/epuipment and look at the policy and political mindset. Sound like a bunch of antis who ban things because they look scary. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. I'm sincerely curious; do you think Balko's work is flawed insofar as the statistics and incidents he cites? I know it is. His statistical methods and sites are hilarious, not to say there aren't abuses; however, intellectual honesty helps. Only a few S.W.A.T. teams in the 1970's, no shit Sherlock. About as useful as saying that the majority of dog fights using jets escalated greatly between 1940 and 1970. I guess he likes to remember the golden age of policing in America. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Birmingham_campaign_dogs.jpg Or maybe the abuse of Sheriff's in the past without oversight, conduct of the FBI under Hoover and during prohibition, etc. Stop looking at the militarization/epuipment and look at the policy and political mindset. Sound like a bunch of antis who ban things because they look scary. Agree. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:18:20 AM EDT
[#17]
The TVA Police disbanded in 2012, and to the best of my knowledge they never fielded a tactical element.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:22:28 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryI laughed so hard I nearly spilled my coffee and pissed myself ... Jerk! 
ETA: My Dad recently retired after 40+ years in law enforcement. He used to tell me stories about hickory tuneups right in the middle of town for mouthing off, petty crime etc. I'm not so sure that nostalgia for the good old days is entirely a good thing. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:27:58 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
His statistical methods and sites are hilarious, not to say there aren't abuses; however, intellectual honesty helps. Only a few S.W.A.T. teams in the 1970's, no shit Sherlock. About as useful as saying that the majority of dog fights using jets escalated greatly between 1940 and 1970. That would be a good analogy if the SWAT teams just grew in existence and weren't actually being used for bullshit no-knocks because of funny smells or weed. Them existing in greater numbers is one thing, the proliferation of their use is another. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:28:03 AM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:31:37 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know it is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. I'm sincerely curious; do you think Balko's work is flawed insofar as the statistics and incidents he cites? I know it is. Yep. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:32:51 AM EDT
[#22]
Every pissant federal department does not need a SWAT team, and only have them for prestige. But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding for a SWAT team that spends a million dollars a year on salary, ammo and training and spends all their non training time sitting around the cafeteria at the federal building playing hearts in their 5.11s.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:40:22 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every pissant federal department does not need a SWAT team, and only have them for prestige. But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding for a SWAT team that spends a million dollars a year on salary, ammo and training and spends all their non training time sitting around the cafeteria at the federal building playing hearts in their 5.11s. Someone here once compared a SWAT team in a jurisdiction that didn't need one to a self-licking ice cream cone. There was a lot of truth in that observation. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:49:17 AM EDT
[#24]
The author of the National Review article has no idea what he is talking about and is just creating PURE hype. There is NO Department of Education SWAT team. The 2011 Department of Education OIG arrest claiming it was for unpaid student loans went viral in the media, based upon inaccurate information. The truth came out that it was a fraud investigation and not for unpaid student loans (not to mention there was NO swat/tactical team), but that seemed to be back page news or not reported at all. Just like there is no Office of Personnel Management, Consumer Product Safety Council, or Railroad Retirement Board SWAT team. Those agencies may have their own OIG's (who have have 1811 Special Agents that attend the same federal law enforcement training as other 1811's), but **NONE** have a SWAT or tactical team (or even claim to have one). Many of the bad guys who used to do drive by shootings and street robberies have moved on to white collar crime. Just because an LEO is wearing a vest and 5.11 pants during an arrest does not make them a SWAT or tactical team...ok maybe in the eyes of tin foil folks or anti-LE crowd. I have zero affiliation to any of these agencies, rather I can only shake my head at why this misinformation continuously is being spread...
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:52:15 AM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:55:11 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding............ I'd like to see anybody questioning the statistics (and they may well be slanted) refute this simple bureaucratic truth. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 6:56:59 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. I'm sincerely curious; do you think Balko's work is flawed insofar as the statistics and incidents he cites? I know it is. Yep. No, not flawed, that would imply he made a mistake. It's deliberately faked. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:04:20 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryAll hostages are threats until secured...all suspects are threats until secured. Especially in cases where you have a lot of unknowns. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:05:38 AM EDT
[#29]
With the present mindset in federal law enforcement, there is going to be another slaughter, which will make Waco look like a paintball match.
I think it is inevitable, especially when I read comments like "....... is lucky he wasn't shot.". |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:08:59 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With the present mindset in federal law enforcement, there is going to be another slaughter, which will make Waco look like a paintball match. I think it is inevitable, especially when I read comments like "....... is lucky he wasn't shot.". "That's the cost of doing business." 
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:19:06 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every pissant federal department does not need a SWAT team, and only have them for prestige. But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding for a SWAT team that spends a million dollars a year on salary, ammo and training and spends all their non training time sitting around the cafeteria at the federal building playing hearts in their 5.11s. No doubts. I'd rather see that funding redirected to better training and equipment for regional units. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:24:58 AM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:27:28 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No doubts. I'd rather see that funding redirected to better training and equipment for regional units. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Every pissant federal department does not need a SWAT team, and only have them for prestige. But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding for a SWAT team that spends a million dollars a year on salary, ammo and training and spends all their non training time sitting around the cafeteria at the federal building playing hearts in their 5.11s. No doubts. I'd rather see that funding redirected to better training and equipment for regional units.  AR15s in the patrol cars of some small, upstate NY departments. I guess the rifle being more common (er up until Tuesday) and younger guys getting on the force changed some of the fuddy duddies minds.Out here in the sticks SWAT isn't showing up unless there is some kind of barricaded asshole situation. They have to assemble either the county or State Police team then get it to the crime scene. We don't have a lot of violent crime really, but money spent on more training local patrol officers on how to (as much as possible) safely search a building and working as two or three man teams would be more likely to actually matter. There are more younger officers who I think would actually take that seriously, some of the old farts, much as I love them, would roll their eyes and mutter "nothing ever happens here." They may use SWAT for some warrant execution. I don't think I have had a case with that. Even when they do sweeps and grab 20 or 30 petty drug shit heads that they have been making buys from it is still mostly "pick up game" law enforcement. Anyone who is around, local, county, border patrol gets roped into being part of the posse.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:30:14 AM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:33:32 AM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:34:48 AM EDT
[#36]
In.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:35:24 AM EDT
[#37]
Spillover from the "war on drugs". You can thank the invention of the no-knock for part of the proliferation of these civilian paramilitary units. Rightfully so, the police departments got tired of funerals for their officers performing these with little or no protection or training. Enter the so-called "tanks" and APC's, as well as the spooky rifles and extra-pocketed pants.
I don't agree with all the the Mayberry-like SWAT teams popping up everywhere, but they are most likely a result of necessity being the mother of invention. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:44:14 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: His statistical methods and sites are hilarious, not to say there aren't abuses; however, intellectual honesty helps. Only a few S.W.A.T. teams in the 1970's, no shit Sherlock. About as useful as saying that the majority of dog fights using jets escalated greatly between 1940 and 1970. I guess he likes to remember the golden age of policing in America. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Birmingham_campaign_dogs.jpg Or maybe the abuse of Sheriff's in the past without oversight, conduct of the FBI under Hoover and during prohibition, etc. Stop looking at the militarization/epuipment and look at the policy and political mindset. Sound like a bunch of antis who ban things because they look scary. Hell, I live in a town that about like a modern Mayberry (little coastal poduk town). They have trained sniper, sporting the latest greatest rifles and glass. The entire freaking town is less than a mile end to end, if you couldn't hit it with a Mosin-Nagant 91/30, you should have a rife in your hands. There used be a TV show called Dallas SWAT (like COPS). Every episode was SWAT pulling doors off some shulbs house (Actually his grandma's house), dropping flashbangs, then niji jumping in windows to bust some 15 year old suspect. I swear, I never saw them get more than a couple grams of pot. They finally cancelled the show. I bet because it showed exactly what is the problem with more of the SWAT teams being used today. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:45:18 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have spotted AR15s in the patrol cars of some small, upstate NY departments. I guess the rifle being more common (er up until Tuesday) and younger guys getting on the force changed some of the fuddy duddies minds.
Out here in the sticks SWAT isn't showing up unless there is some kind of barricaded asshole situation. They have to assemble either the county or State Police team then get it to the crime scene. We don't have a lot of violent crime really, but money spent on more training local patrol officers on how to (as much as possible) safely search a building and working as two or three man teams would be more likely to actually matter. There are more younger officers who I think would actually take that seriously, some of the old farts, much as I love them, would roll their eyes and mutter "nothing ever happens here." They may use SWAT for some warrant execution. I don't think I have had a case with that. Even when they do sweeps and grab 20 or 30 petty drug shit heads that they have been making buys from it is still mostly "pick up game" law enforcement. Anyone who is around, local, county, border patrol gets roped into being part of the posse. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Every pissant federal department does not need a SWAT team, and only have them for prestige. But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding for a SWAT team that spends a million dollars a year on salary, ammo and training and spends all their non training time sitting around the cafeteria at the federal building playing hearts in their 5.11s. No doubts. I'd rather see that funding redirected to better training and equipment for regional units. AR15s in the patrol cars of some small, upstate NY departments. I guess the rifle being more common (er up until Tuesday) and younger guys getting on the force changed some of the fuddy duddies minds.
Out here in the sticks SWAT isn't showing up unless there is some kind of barricaded asshole situation. They have to assemble either the county or State Police team then get it to the crime scene. We don't have a lot of violent crime really, but money spent on more training local patrol officers on how to (as much as possible) safely search a building and working as two or three man teams would be more likely to actually matter. There are more younger officers who I think would actually take that seriously, some of the old farts, much as I love them, would roll their eyes and mutter "nothing ever happens here." They may use SWAT for some warrant execution. I don't think I have had a case with that. Even when they do sweeps and grab 20 or 30 petty drug shit heads that they have been making buys from it is still mostly "pick up game" law enforcement. Anyone who is around, local, county, border patrol gets roped into being part of the posse. I was the first guy in my area to start carrying an AR back in '91. Our SWAT team is very seldom used. Every now and then a barricaded person or violent felony arrest siutation. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:46:35 AM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:02:01 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryThat's the pic that had one of my favorite replies on Arfcom. "If that's the SWAT team I'll take my fucking chances as a hostage". 
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:08:40 AM EDT
[#42]
"Elite" SWAT Team
As of late, the New York City Police Department's vaunted Emergency Service Unit (ESU) has been mired in a series of controversial and embarrassing misfirings of their weapons which insiders attribute to reduced training.
An exclusive report featured in the New York Daily News highlights an increasingly troubling trend of negligent firearm discharges by ESU officers. The recent incidents portray the elite squad as trigger-happy or amateurish rather than the highly skilled and world-class professionals they are commonly known as. On the evening of November 30, a member of the ESU sniper team safeguarding the annual holiday festival, accidentally fired a rifle round.
The mishap happened about 90 minutes after the ceremony had finished and the sniper teams were pulling out of their positions. Four days prior to the Rockefeller Center incident, an ESU detective accidentally fired a shotgun round while emerging from his vehicle as he was responding to a report of a barricaded gunman at West 136 Street in Harlem. In the early morning hours of January 22, the third and final accidental discharge occurred and resulted in an unintentional shooting that left an elderly man severely wounded. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:11:06 AM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:16:00 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every pissant federal department does not need a SWAT team, and only have them for prestige. But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding for a SWAT team that spends a million dollars a year on salary, ammo and training and spends all their non training time sitting around the cafeteria at the federal building playing hearts in their 5.11s. Absolutely. This explosion of federal agencies and departments with civilian LE power offends me as a taxpayer - and it isn't so much the actual LE grunts so much as it is the layers of duplicative and wasteful "supervision and administrative support". My solution would be to eliminate all but four: FBI, USSS, USMS, and USCG - with CG LEO jurisdiction being limited to below the low-tide line. Even then it may be better to transfer the USCG to the Department of the Navy as a component service similar the Marines. Most of USCG's acquisition community could be eliminated as redundant, the rest absorbed into the Navy's. Anyone else needing investigatory support - ask the FBI or USSS. USMS can do what they do now along with an expanded federal facilities protection role. The Border Protection mission should go to the Army - its a defense issue, not a LE issue. Customs - just tax collection... if they need someone arrested, call the Marshals. </soapbox> |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:16:58 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Involved in energy production - their team is most likely intended for defensive use in and around their facilities like the units operated by DoE. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tennessee Valley Authority Involved in energy production - their team is most likely intended for defensive use in and around their facilities like the units operated by DoE. They have mostly dispanded their police and have been using contractors (now in-sourced into .gov positions) for security. I haven't seen an actual TVA police officer in about 5 years (worked for a sheriff's office in a county that has a TVA nuclear plant). The TVA security guys are there for plant protection and aren't certified LEO's. Or at least they never were (may be now). |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:25:49 AM EDT
[#46]
Just part of the plan to grind the citizens into compliance.
ETA : Using Swat call outs for minor offenses. Giving SWAT teams to every agency to force their agenda (the EPA?) |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:25:56 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every pissant federal department does not need a SWAT team, and only have them for prestige. But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding for a SWAT team that spends a million dollars a year on salary, ammo and training and spends all their non training time sitting around the cafeteria at the federal building playing hearts in their 5.11s. You will get no argument from me that SWAT needs to be done right. Half-assing it is a true recipe for disaster. Pool resources, stand up a good team, keep them current and trained, equip them properly, and keep them accountable. Professional SWAT is definitely a life-saving resource. Clownshoes can GTFO |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:30:16 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Someone here once compared a SWAT team in a jurisdiction that didn't need one to a self-licking ice cream cone. There was a lot of truth in that observation. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Every pissant federal department does not need a SWAT team, and only have them for prestige. But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding for a SWAT team that spends a million dollars a year on salary, ammo and training and spends all their non training time sitting around the cafeteria at the federal building playing hearts in their 5.11s. Someone here once compared a SWAT team in a jurisdiction that didn't need one to a self-licking ice cream cone. There was a lot of truth in that observation. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile There is.... Even notice that LAPD SWAT doesn't do bad shoots? Even though they probably deploy damn near every day? SWAT teams need to train as SWAT and use their skills. Most agencies give a few guys AR's and some other high speed gear and call it a SWAT team. It's no more a SWAT team than a bunch of arfcommers in their mom's basement. SWAT is a great concept for large departments that have the need for a full time unit. But frankly, I think it needs a different outlook for smaller departments. High-risk warrant service can be done by a regional or even state team that can be full time. Beyond that, train and equip individual officers to deal with active shooters and other rapidly developing incidents.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:32:17 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, not flawed, that would imply he made a mistake. It's deliberately faked. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. I'm sincerely curious; do you think Balko's work is flawed insofar as the statistics and incidents he cites? I know it is. Yep. No, not flawed, that would imply he made a mistake. It's deliberately faked. It's highly misleading, in the same sense as the brady campaign is misleading... Lies, damn lies, and statistics. But I don't think it's faked. The data is real. The interpretation of it is FUBAR.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 8:32:44 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You will get no argument from me that SWAT needs to be done right. Half-assing it is a true recipe for disaster. Pool resources, stand up a good team, keep them current and trained, equip them properly, and keep them accountable. Professional SWAT is definitely a life-saving resource. Clownshoes can GTFO Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Every pissant federal department does not need a SWAT team, and only have them for prestige. But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding for a SWAT team that spends a million dollars a year on salary, ammo and training and spends all their non training time sitting around the cafeteria at the federal building playing hearts in their 5.11s. You will get no argument from me that SWAT needs to be done right. Half-assing it is a true recipe for disaster. Pool resources, stand up a good team, keep them current and trained, equip them properly, and keep them accountable. Professional SWAT is definitely a life-saving resource. Clownshoes can GTFO A swat team of a fairly large upstate city was disbanded. I don't remember all the problems but the last straw was an officer tripping after a raid was over and accidentally firing a shotgun and killing some guy who was an innocent bystander (as much as anyone hanging around a crack house is a innocent bystander)
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