Mods, a Tack please??


As regards this thread;
[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=149406&page=1[/url]

I have talked to Dave Workman at Second Amendment Foundation. They are interested. They are also very busy with the "ballistic fingerprinting" thing. He asked me to please get contact info as listed in the thread above. I need you guys to e-mail me the info. Call around to local shops/ranges, and see if anyone is willing to talk to me. Send me their info, I'll call them. Read the thread above to see what I need, and why,(or just page 3&4). Thanks!!!

So what is the plan...?

The plan is to do as much leg work for the big boys as we can. This is called "Grassroots Activism". I've worked with these, (and other), folks before. They are good people, and are able to bring some "Big guns" to bear. They are no bullshit, and "no compromise"....

If you're not a member, check them out;

[url]http://www.saf.org/[/url]

You've got mail.

Chk your IM's

I posted a link at SniperCountry.  There are a great bunch of guys on that board....very serious, but good people.  Hopefully some of them will get involved too...this whole thing is setting a bad precedent.  Emails going out here as well.

Gentlemen,

Please be careful.

Mr MKSheppard, who posted that initial note has not posted since.

You may have been had by a [:K]


Lately, 'ya can't swing a dead cat around here without hitting one!

--LS

True enough, but another poster, (skeet), seemed to verify. And fight posted the news article. It's worth a followup. Chimbo, got your e-mail, will follow-up. I'd apprieciate it if you local guys would make initial contact,(remember it's long distance for me), talk to responsible parties, find out what happened, and if they are willing to talk about it, then forward me the info. It's noon here on the west coast, I'm in the middle of a home project, and am having to do stuff for the sub-contractors. I'll keep checking in.

[red]Ed! Thanks for the tack!![/red]

Guys, This is where the rubber meets the road. Activism!! This is how it all gets done. Don't let "the other guy" do it!!!'Thanks to all......

got it, thanks. Guys, please use e-mails, they are easier for me to save to a folder....thanks.

I'm up here in NJ, but let me know what I can do.


Tony

Update 1320 hrs pacific

Have talked to several dealers, 1 as far south as Richmond,(he has not been checked, nor does he believe any others in the area have), which is prolly too far south.
[blue]As you are all aware, ATF may check and obtain dealer records at any time, for any,(or no), reason. This has always been the case, nothing new here.[/blue]

Had an interesting chat with a dealer at ground zero. He's been checked. About 5 guys, all under 25, came in. So new, they ALL had to make sure everyone saw their ID's,(you "old salts" know what I mean). Dealer says they were polite, looked at all transactions going back 2 years. Targeted .223 calibers, and those close to it. Took some 4473's with them, to copy, then returned them. I gave him my info, 'cause what we are interested in, is how the 4473 info is used by ATF. Dealer was cooperative and friendly after getting over his initial suspicions that we all, (gun culture), share. If any of the purchasers are contacted, and the dealer hears about it, he will contact me, and we'll follow up from there.
I am really interested in the "range log" issue. Are ranges in the area being contacted, and are they surrendering their sign-in logs? Willingly?
As far as I know, there's no requirement for them, (ranges), to keep a log, or to surrender it without a warrant.
Back to my conversation. Dealer told me a friend of his,(I think we've heard this before), was visited by a Maryland State trooper, wanting to see his"Arsenal",(cops words), guy told him to take a hike, (which we all should do), if he didn't have a warrant, then called dealer asking who that good gun attorney was he knew. Will keep you posted as more comes in. I have followed up on all leads sent to me so far,(thanks chimbo & one shot). Need range info from members in the area, or info on private parties who have been contacted as a result of a 4473 search. Thanks...

Hey liberty, I just sent you the info for Clark Brothers Guns (the range whos sign-in log was confiscated) as well as a dealer in Northern VA that stocks alot of AR's(I'd imagine they were visited since they have lots of AR's).

Let me know if you don't get the email, I'll resend.

Thanks skeet, good info, will try to contact them Saturday, as they are closed now. 1605 hours pacific I've heard from 3 members, I need info, especially about ranges and owners who are contacted as a result of the range log issue, and the 4473 checks. Thanks....

Wanted to add, if you e-mail me, please identify yourself by username, post here to if you want. If you don't want to be known, let me know, I'll burn the e-mail after I hand copy it! [:D]

The store where I work at part time had the ATF show up and look through all the yellows on .223 weapons sold in the last year.
We have also been swamped by calls for bullet proof vests, as well as alot of tv crews stopping by...

Jeesh, you're way far south aren't 'cha? I talked to a dealer in Richmond, said he hadn't been checked, didn't think others in area had either....

Nope, about 20 min from DC.
My wife and sister were up at Seven Corners about 2 hours before the last shooting....

Whoops!!  looks like I need to update my profile [:I]

Buddy of mine bought an AR at
Gilbert's Small Arms in VA a few years back. He called Gilbert's and asked if ATF had been in for the yellow forms yet, they said, "Yep, last 10 years worth."

Wish there were something I could to help out .But for what it's worth FBI S/A neighbor thinks it most likely Al-Quida related .He prays he's wrong ! U.S.Customs buddy in L.A. still thinks shooter is a local Wack-job !

Good luck to all you folks back on the East Coast .


[usa]

MKSheppard has been around for awhile, and on other boards.

Forest and I have both been emailing with him for more than a year.

I think it's on the up and up.  I just hope he's not a political prisoner in a USSA Gulag right now.

Word is getting around. If you're on other boards, give them a link to here, still need info from individual gun owners who have had a "visit". We are being contacted by some interesting people in the Patriot community. We should have a good idea of where we are at by mid week next. If you see folks posting here on the board, from MD, steer them to this thread. Thanks...

Forgot to mention that 2 people that I work with have been visited by the ATF, due to their neighbors calling TIPS.

I work in Baltimore and the DC area, sometimes driving a white GMC Safari minivan (with obvious company markings). I was all over Fairfax County on Thursday, and got lots of "looks", most of which seemed relieved to see my blonde hair! I have never bought a rifle in Md. or Va., but I will ask my local FFL if he has been visited (he is in Pa. on the Md. border) and report back. He sells LOTS of AR15's and other .223's. Man, I hope when they catch this clown they just gut shoot him and let him bleed out slow.

Ask them if I may call them and chat, if yes, send phone #'s and best time to call. I'd also like to chat with your FFL holder at the shop you work at if he/she"s willing. Use e-mail for all personal info.  Thanks.

Update 0950 hrs Saturday Pacific: Since their name has been mentioned, I will too. Talked to the owner of Clarks guns, in VA this AM. Nice guy. They also have a range, and keep a non-compulsory "range log". This is basically a sign up sheet used when the lanes are full, to determine "who's next". ATF were friendly, and polite. Owner says many names in the log were illegible. They also went through his 4473's, (as they are legally entitled to do at any time). They took some info from both the log, and 4473"s. Owner will notify me if he hears of any customers being contacted.

[blue]My Impressions so far;[/blue]I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on gun law. The laws are on the books.
THAT SAID: It seems to me from my conversations with dealers who have been contacted, that;

#1) the authorities are employing commonly accepted investigative techniques to apprehend an unknown perp who is murdering what anyone, (except a terrorist), must consider as innocents.(and lots of 'em)

#2) Due to the above, there are certain "Exegesis of the moment".

#3) So far, with the exception of an antecdotal MD case cited in a previous post, THAT DID NOT involve a Fed., all contact I have heard about, (first hand), have been on the up & up. No one has come in "throwing their weight around" to this point. None of the dealers have felt put upon. I still need to talk to individual gun  owners that have had a visit however. If anyone knows of any please get their permission, and send me their contact info.

Thus far, I have only talked to dealers, no individuals info has reached me yet.

[red]ATTENTION MD activists![/red] you may want to follow up on the MD case I cited, through your state organization, if so, contact me, I'll try and hook you up...

Thanks to all so far, and please keep the info coming...

Thanks Hawk, ya, but I'm not registered to post there.......If anyone is a member of any other board, please post a link to this thread at that board. I am in touch with dealers in the area back there, and am in touch with top staff at Second Amendment foundation, and have been contacted by Sierra Times news.
I don't have time to do it all, so please post this far and wide. I need to talk to gun owners who have been directly contacted by federal authorities, not someone who says "I heard yada, yada, yada...." Thanks.....

Found a good link over on firing line. Reccomend to all to read it...

[url]http://www.gunowners.com/batf.htm[/url]

I hear through the grapevine, a couple of folks would like to talk to me. Just hit the "e-mail user" button above, send me your info, (prefer phone #). Don't know if it works for non-members, if not, try this; [email protected]

Thanks.....

Thanks hawk, I am in touch with a member here, who is also a VCDL member. Apparently they are having a meeting this weekend, hopefully I'll hear from him afterwards.  thanks

Hey guys!  I just got a visit from the FBI and the local PD about 15 minutes apart regarding the sniper investigation.  I answered all their questions, and they seemed satisfied that I'm not the sniper.  The FBI agents mentioned that they are getting info from Internet boards like this one.  Seems I'm not the only one. [:D]

Well Steve, I just clicked on your "user info", and all I got was your first name. Would you e-mail me your phone#, and time to call please, I'd like to talk to you. Thanks...

BTW...I just had FOUR U.S. Marshals show up and one of them questioned me.  They were pretty cool...the one guy was impressed with my Bushmaster.  He wanted an unfired round from my ammo stash...I have tons of it, so I gave him one.  Glad he didn't ask to take my AR...nobody gets my property without a warrant...I ain't a criminal, so screw 'em! [}:D]

If that's the case, why did you give him the cartridge? Isn't that your "property" too? What do you think he's going to do with it, put it on his nightstand? At the very least he can compare headstamp against whatever they've managed to pick up at the scene(s).

JScott

IamtheNRA, where in VA do you live?

Just curious, as I am still awaiting my visit from the feds.  If they don't come say hi I will feel left out [:(][;D]

Liberty, we talked about this and have yet to find someone who was contacted by the feds...they have all been second hand kind of stories.  However, we are on the lookout for this sort of thing, and have asked our members to report anything.  This went out a few days ago:

[b]URGENT! Sniper Alert - your guns could be in jeopardy - PLEASE READ[/b]

The is a very important message - please read it in its entirety:

Governor Warner has stood up to pressure from the media to push for
gun control in the wake of the sniper attacks in the DC area.  We
should thank him for his firm stance in protecting the rights of
Virginia's gun owners during this sad time.  He as correctly pointed
out that there are already laws against murder on the books and more
laws are not the answer.  He said that there will be a severe penalty
when the sniper or snipers are caught.

We hope that the politicians in Maryland are not using the sniper
shooting to stir up a frenzy against gun owners.  However, numerous
reports from Maryland are indicating that is exactly what they are
doing.  From reports that VCDL is seeing, gun owners in Maryland are
being harassed by the Maryland State Police, probably for political
purposes, just before an election.  People with .223 rifles, we are
told, are being pressured on the telephone to turn in their guns for
"voluntary" ballistic fingerprinting - and the pressure is intense.
Reports say that police seem to know every gun the citizen has!

Does it strike you as strange that the possibility of a terrorist
cell doing the sniping is consistently being ruled out by Maryland
Police in favor of the a disgruntled single gun owner?  No one has
any idea who the sniper is, if there is more than one, or much else.
So how can anyone say it is not a terrorist?  It just doesn't make
sense.  In other investigations the police are constantly keeping all
their options open.

We have NOT had gun owner harassment happen in Virginia THAT WE KNOW
OF.  And we are not trying to put out a false alarm, but the evidence
is mounting.  A member reported being in a NOVA gun store *today*
that had 3 BATF agents going over the records and gathering
information on owners of .223 rifles.  So it may be getting ready to
start here.

Let's be clear - if you voluntarily hand over your guns to the police
or BATF for ballistic fingerprinting, there is no guarantee that you
will ever see them again.

For the police to take your guns requires a warrant.  But they can
ask and, if you turn them over voluntarily, that is legal.

If you get a harassing call as described above, do the following things:

1.  Get the name, badge number, phone number, and department that the
caller is from
2.  Tell the person that you need to check out the call and will get
back to them
3.  Call the police non-emergency number and verify that this is a legitimate call
4.  Contact an attorney immediately - VCDL has some attorneys it can recommend
5.  Contact VCDL so we know what is going on
6.  If you should, for whatever reason, decide to turn your guns
over, get a signed document showing when you
    will be getting those guns back

Armed citizens are an asset, not a liability.  There are 110,000
permit holders in Virginia, far out numbering the police.  We
absolutely don't recommend vigilantism, but an armed citizen could be
in the right place at the right time to legally stop this murderous
assassin or assassins.  As we are constantly reminded, the police
simply cannot be everywhere.

Here is the contact information for the Governor, to thank him for
not pushing gun-control:

[url]http://www.governor.state.va.us/Contact/email_form.html[/url]

Here is the phone number: (804) 786-2211. Here is his fax: (804) 371-6351

Good advice above, thanks chimbo..

Update; Monday 0700 pacific.
I have several calls to make this AM. Thus far, I have talked to two members, who have had visits by authorities. No abuse reported. One person was what I would consider as "over cooperative" with them. An individual choice, I'm not criticizing him, and for the record, without getting into details, his situation is unique. I've talked with a number of dealers, and 1 range. All report polite authorities, [b]NO[/b] JBT tactics. I urge all members in the local area to contact their state "NO COMPROMISE" gun groups, for info. Form local communications, stay in touch. For Virginia members, contact the VCDL,(Virginia Citizens Defense League), at [url]http://www.vcdl.org/[/url] , Or, contact our own chimborazo. Chimbo reports that VCDL, while "hearing" some of the same stories we have seen on this site, [b]None[/b] have been documented.

In closing, I started this thread, and asked for a tack for 2 reasons. The first reason is the obvious one, and the topic here; Is the govt. useing "overbearing", or illegal tactics in the search for the sniper. So far the FACTUAL EVIDENCE points to a NO answer.

My second purpose is to demonstrate to my fellow gun owners what "activism" is. I have been very active here in Oregon, (see my "user info" above). As an activist, one of the first things I discovered was that a lot of gun owners talk the talk, (or even send $$), but when it comes time to "Stand and Deliver", they get off the bus. Many don't want to be "known", many are just lazy, many "let the other guy do it". This thread has been read over 2000 times, I have been contacted by 6 site members, and 2 non-members. My thanks to them for caring and taking the time to respond.

I'm not cryin' here. I discovered this some time ago, and accept it. I do what I do because I refuse to go out without a whimper. I would prefer the battle be won this way, rather than the alternative. I am prepared for the alternative, but, I also believe the fight is now, in this way. I meet some of the best people our nation has to offer, and I've met a few more since I began this thread. I don't have a lot of $$, but I do have the time. Contrary to what some members here may think, I'm no dummy, and am a pretty good strategist, and organizer.

[b]Most of all, it's FUN!![/b]

Mods, I'd like to keep this thread tacked a few more days. I still have some more followup work to do, but it is becoming clear to me which way the wind is blowing on the issue of tactics being used to apprehend the sniper.

My thanks to all.....

ps. still want to hear from anyone who has had a visit...   [:D]

All is quiet on the eastern front (east half of MD).

I finally got to talk to my FFL, who usually has at least 10 AR15's and many more other "assault rifle" type weapons in stock. He has not been contacted.

Also, in Chimbo's post, it is said that Md. seems to know where all the AR15's are. That is probably because Maryland has registration for them, just like hand guns. One more reason why I left long ago.

Vote for Forrester on election day! [;D]

I spoke with Robert of Bobs Gun shop today. His troubles go back a few years and have nothing to do with the sniper. The feds want his records of sale for all firearms new and used . He said thank you  but NO thanks he can afford to fight his own battles. He said if you want to help somebody help the little stores cant afford legal help on thier own.

He is always a good guy, Buy from BOB's Gun In Norfolk

Thanks baddog

Update;Wed 0800 hrs Pacific
Just got off the phone with Eric Pratt at GOA HQ. They have heard some of the same bad antecdotes some of us have, but have not been able to verify. They have not been contacted by owners that have had visits.

Summary; I have talked, (Personally, by phone), to 8 dealers, and 1 range that have had visits. All have reported polite inspections, NO intimidation. All cooperated. I have talked, (Personally, by phone),  to 4 gun owners who reported visits. All have reported polite inspections, NO intimidation. All cooperated.

Conclusion; The authorities [b]are not[/b] using intimidating tactics with respect to gunowners as part of their contact with gun owners in this investigation. Isolated circumstances MAY arise in the future with respect to individual agents actions, but NONE have been reported to me, or GOA by individual gun owners as of 1100 hrs EST.

In closing, I urge my fellow ar15 members to get involved. My thanks to those who contacted me.....

Mods, please un-tack, and thanks...

Good job, liberty.  The price of our freedoms is eternal vigilance.