I have been feeling pretty tired the last few months,  also have noticed a change in the way my muscle mass changes in response to working out along with a slight drop in libido. It's still there but not the same as before.  So I asked my neighbor who's a doc and he wanted to run some tests.


I came back with low testosterone and very low Vit D.  Testosterone was only 160 when he said it should be 400-800 and 400 was considered low.

he said it's likely related to stress and my travel schedule and work which lately has been insane.  Also not sleeping well.

He outlined a couple of options.  1 is a testosterone gel but he said that's a lifetime option. Once you start, you can't stop.  that doesn't sound good.

another one is something called "novarel" or HCG.  He said it helps stimulate your body to produce it's own.  This sounds like a better option since it sounds like I can come off it if my schedule goes back to normal or I start getting some sleep..


I'm not sure though. Anyone else gone through this?  it's not bad,  I feel fine I just don't feel quite "normal".  Any reason not to use the Novarel/HCG stuff?

From the anecdotal reports posted here (probably about 100 pages back), the androgel has its minuses.  I think most guys here teported using it for like a month to 3 months and their T numbers went up and they felt great.  Then, I guess their body got used to it, and they plateau'ed and then dropped off and started feeling like shit again.


Those guys, IIRC, ...probably all of them, went off the androgel and switched to test shots.

I think almost every one here recommends getting the testosterone cypionate injections.

We have at least one regular poster here who is using the test shots twice per week and the supplementing the between times with a testosterone gel in order to smooth out the highs and lows between shots.

I'm using ON as well.  I prefer the casien because it makes a thicker shake and it's slower digesting than whey. But mainly because the chocolate supreme tastes better to me.  

Try the stair climber (stairway to hell)  if your gym has one.  I think it's a better workout.

Yep. See sig line.  I hope to teach that concept to my kids.

week one update

took 50mg last  tuesday  
didnt  feel anything., figured low dose and it takes a while forgot about it

then on Friday I literally woke up energized -
life was different  on friday -  didnt  realize/make the connection that the test cyp "kicked in" until  2pm but then it was too late,,,

morning i felt  amazing  well rested and ready to take on the world.  
i just  figured .. finally i got some good sleep.  

at  work I  fast  paced everywhere and was generally  just  feeling good.

then  it  happened.

a manager that normally  says the dumbest  shit  walks up and says,,    some dumb shit.  

i LOST it..  i tore into him in front  of everyone...  basically to  put it  simply  i  became the asshole i used to know and loved being...  but  work was not the place to make that realization..  

at some point  I caught my self and stopped but the damage was done.
rest of friday  was spent feeling amazing.  

Saturday,
again felt out fucking standing at  wake up.
the first half of the day was awsome.    

Saturday  afternoon.  
I realized what  ever  happened with the Test cyp had wore off.
felt like shit.   felt like i  felt the day before the shot..   but worse because i was given a reminder of how good i used to feel and the new "normal" i was used to  was no longer where i wanna be.  
rest of the day spent  with no energy

Sunday
fully back to "normal"  I dont like this

Monday  
fully  back to normal : I dont like this.
3pm i get a call from docs office that BCBS wont authorize the Rx and i  need another test done..
 ( weird cause they already  paid for one veil )  
but perfect because i can use this as an opportunity to ask my doc if i can up the dose from 50mg per week  to something higher  cause i felt good for 1.5 days and i liked it .

Tuesday morning
not taking my shot until after my 2nd blood test and i get to ask if i can "up" it.





i took my shot and felt great for 1.5 days
had i known  i could feel that way again i would not of put it off
put it off for many  reasons..

main one being,,,  being embarrassed







from what i can tell BCBS will not allow me the 10ml bottle
walgreens has confirmed they will fill it    but BCBS will not pay for it . something about 30 day supply

goodrx has a coupon for walgreens to make the 10ml bottle 44 bucks
walgreens confirmed i can use it instead of my  insurance for the 10ml bottle

if i get the doc to write it for 10ml thats what  im going to  do,

end update



oh whats the difference in test-c  and test-e   ?
 test-e is more expensive.. is it better?  will it  last  longer
was the only 1.5 days feeling better the result of low dose or low quality generic ?

So you're telling me that on 50mg you became an asshole? All within 72 hours?

I'm calling bullshit. That's not how this works my friend. 50mg is a baby dose and will not make you an asshole. There's an old saying regarding roid rage, the only difference is that if you're an asshole to start off with, it's just going to make you an even bigger one.

Test-E and test Cyp have different half lives.

He actually said an asshole was his old self that he knew and loved so basically he went back to normal.

Placebo effects much?

My pharmacy filled the 1st 10mL vial by mistake without BCBS authorization.  It turned out not to be a big deal because the pharmacists and I worked something out.  However, once I was on it for 3 months then BCBS would pay for a 90 day supply.  My guess is that's what happened to you.  

Test-e vs -c is just different esters, with C having a slightly longer half life.  -c seems to be the preferred type.  

 
A long term severe calorie reduction will have the body "eating itself" and your metabolism will greatly slow down.  However, studies show it takes about 72 of "starvation" before your metabolism starts to slow.  That is how people doing intermittent fasting are able to lose weight.  They will 12 to 24 hours without food and lose weight just fine.  If you work out and don't eat, your body will use your muscle mass for protein needed.


That is where the keto type diets come in.  Give you body protein and fat but almost no carbs and it learns to breakdown fat in order to get the fuel it needs.  Keto is great but it takes real dedication to get into ketosis and stay there.

I hear you and i  accept the placebo effect thing ..

but  for only  a day and a half?   i cant  even lie to my self right  is that what your saying  ?  lol

just  reporting
if it doesnt  sound right  feel free to  call me out.

but to fake my self out for only a day and a half.    

fuck you lazy subconscious  

on the other hand.  that is the type of thing I would do..   even if its to my self.

if a placebo can make me feel like that  then damn it , fuck test -c    lie to me brain ..  cause i LIKED it.


or it could or been me lying to me..  and me doing a half ass job at it..    this also sounds like something i would do.

Placebo. I've had them for other medications at different levels. But you are really letting it really get to you. It's only 50mg. Your body produces that much, and at that dose, you are just adding a little more to it. Somehow you bought the hype that roids turn you to hulk smash everything. It takes weeks for it to build up and start working. On the dose you're on, I'm not sure you'll actually feel very much difference. Definetly not right away. Maybe a little after 3-4 weeks.

I've pinned 250mg and then took a nap. Then went outside and hugged a bunch of kittens and puppies. Yah, when on anabolic dose sizes and adding in other orals, you can have big mood swings. But it's easily controllable by any sane person.

IMHO different levels of depression is far more common than roid rage.

I posted on the previous page IIRC,

How ~3 days after my initial dose of TC [200mg per cc]  [.25cc or 50mg] I saw a clear reaction

To the Positive...



Within 2 weeks of .25cc twice a week, my E2 spiked to almost 50 on LabCorp scale, and my Family doc didn't care...


[Of course now we know that isn't so undesirable]



Now a sweet spot seems to be .4cc every 4 days

I know when I got my 200mg booster shot.  I had some really strange side effects.  the brain fog was bad really bad and then I got really weepy.  The complete opposite of hulk smash.

Pussy...

lol....it was so bad I walked out of an appointment in a panic because I couldn't find my keys.  Well they were still in the ignition with the car running.  Considering the part of town I was in I'm lucky my car was still there.  

How long did it take you guys to really start noticing fat loss, especially around your midsection?

I know it's entirely diet driven, and I'm pretty good on that front, but I'm wonder when that kicks in.

I'm about 4 weeks in and a number of things are improving. Sex drive is way up, morning wood and NRBs are common, sleep quality & feeling rested is much improved, and my intensity, drive, & strength in the gym is WAY up. However, I haven't seen much in the way of fat loss on my stomach.

Well, that just took the air out of my balloon

Once I get things dialed in with the TRT, I need to go get my thyroid levels checked. My low T is pituitary-driven, so I may have other associated issues.

Thank you. Were these also backed up with blood test data I wonder?

I have no idea, and this thread is such a monstrosity, it would be impossible to find the exact data you are looking for.

Some others here in this thread ...feel to correct me if I am wrong...but either with the androgel and the injections, I think for the most part, a man's body shuts down it's own testosterone production after a while, so instead of like supplementing your own body's T, the gel or shots become the only source of T.  Hence, the plateau or even decline.

As far as I know, I do NOT ever recall reading about anybody on androgel also taking HCG and anastrozole.  Maybe that had an effect on the plateau or drop???  I dunno <shrugs shoulders>

I agree  -not too much info on the creams

My experience, creams suck. More E than T. And I don't want gyno.

Most that go on them end up switching to injections.  My gp told me at least 50% of his patients stop responding to it.  I was up to 8 pumps a day and my t levels were below 300.

There is the general belief that it causes higher aromitization and most docs rx'ing the creams no nothing about azol or other blockers.  

The other issue is creams are expensive.  

Will CLOMID kick start your Nat T production again if coming off of TRT?

What about HCG kick starting Nat T?

 
Clomid will kick start it but if you had low T to begin with then you will need to continue taking the clomid to keep seeing elevated levels.  If you stop the clomid you will go back to your low T level.


Your natural T production comes from the level of LH hormone in your body.  Clomid kicks your LH and FSH into over drive.  HCG just mimics LH, which produces testosterone but doesn't really kick start the whole hormone cycle.  You would want clomid for that.

Some believe using HCG prior to, or even during a kick start or PCT helps get the nuts up and running again. I don't think it would hurt to use it for a bit leading up to, but it seems to me like it would be suppressive to the natural feedback loop once your off injections.

If you really think you didn't need TRT to begin with, or have fixed some underlying issue then by all means give it s go but be prepared for the worst. I tried and it was the worst experience of my life. I think I was at a TT of 190 when I started TRT and I didn't think it could get much worse than that but I was wrong, very wrong.

 
HCG should be used during TRT.  If not it should be used for the 2 weeks after the injections stop and before switching to clomid.  At that point you want to stop the HCG as it can confuse the negative feedback loop and actually make the clomid less effective.  


LH creates testosterone, testosterone converts to estrogen, and the negative feedback loop monitors estrogen levels to regulate LH production; the extra testosterone from the HCG will cause the body to think it is producing more than it actually is.  That may cause it lower LH and FSH production.

My latest shipment from Low T finally arrived.

This is aggravating as fuck.

So they ship  the test cyp, the anastrozole 1mg, and the HCG in this fancy schmancy foam lined box labeled "Mantality".

And get this...no fucking syringes and no fucking needles.

WHAT!

THE!

FUCK!?

I have a very friendly pharmacist that I am going to see tomorrow.  He will be able to give me the names and phone numbers of local docs who prescribe test cyp.

I am really freakin' tired of the bullshit from Low T and their $200 a month bill.

EDIT:  the last time I was there, they specifically asked me if I wanted to keep getting the HCG in an injection form that I mix with bacteriostatic water.  I specifically told them "YES!, I still want to inject HCG."

What do they ship?  Some form of HCG that dissolves under the tongue.

I like having the bacteriostatic water around, in addition to the extra needles and syringes.

If I recall correctly, some of the guys who have done Clomid...again, IIRC, report either being in a bad mood all the time, or the Clomid made the flip into a pissy mood instantly or easily.

I called and told them I didn't want that sublingual crap and I had a new batch of HCG from the old pharmacy in my mailbox 2 days later. The stuff they are sending out now doesn't work and I don't think I was the first to bitch about it.

Good luck with your search for a doc that doesn't suck. I'm looking too and if I find one, I'll let you know. I seem to need a very large dose just to get mid range levels, most doctors freak out a bit when they see anything more than 200/week. Or at a minimum want me to start at 100 and slowly work my way up. I've been through that process so many times now...I'm getting really tired of it all.

 

Those are the rare cases.  Others have used it and not had a reaction anything close to that.  A clomid test should be the first thing someone does before starting TRT.  

I've been reading the thread from the start.

I've noticed that I, 46 and fit just about every symptom with exception to any ED or anything sexual.

brain fog
cannot loose weight
3-4 days to recover from a workout
no real increase in workouts
tired

you name it.

I ran a Testosterone and got a 201. I was expecting low end normal range of 400-600. not a 201. tomorrow is my first Dr's visit to get on a therapy.

what are the questions I should ask?

Can I get a copy of my lab results?
Can I do self injections? Prescribe me syringes to do them at home?

lab isn't the issue, since I do it for a living. LoL

my real questions are regarding the types of therapies and long term use.

 
The problem you will run into is the type of therapy will be whatever the doctor feels comfortable with and they will want you on it long term.  You will be lucky if you get much more information than that from a doctor.  Also the information they will give you will most likely be inaccurate, as most doctors don't specialize in hormone replacement and don't know the answers.

For example my general physician said he would prescribe T injections, 1 dose of 100mg every 4 weeks.  I asked if he was sure about that since the half life of Test C is 8-10 days.  He said yes, that is how he treats people.  That is about the worst possible treatment out there and my doctor is a good general doctor; he just doesn't know anything different and won't even look in to things he isn't familiar with.  











 

this is exactly what I am afraid of.
should I make an appt with an endocrinologist or go to specific mens clinic?

even in the medical field I have a lot of questions.
should I try to jump start my own T with HcG?
should I go straight to injectables? I have already been counseled to avoid creams and patches.

I assume you start out at the minimum dosage and creep up.

what are the side effects of my own sex organs?
what broad spectrum, long term effects am I looking at?

what should I avoid?
what should I request specifically?

What do you expect when you fail to comprehend so many specific and accurate suggestions here that have been repeated time and again.

Is your whole life a train wreck???

Sorry for ranting at you, but stupidity pisses me off


You could have resolved EVERY ONE OF your 'supply' complaints if you had motivation and paid attention...

With less wear and tear than YOUR RANT  ---At VERY LITTLE COST...

 


3. Are you looking to be in the "normal" range so your symptoms disappear or do you want to be at the higher end of the range where you would feel better than you have in years?


#2 is important for multiple reasons.  Finding the cause will require other labs and looking for other problems unrelated to the treatment.  It will also require doing different types of treatments to see if or how you respond to different medication.  Both will cost money and require time.  You might also never get an answer but you will rule things out such at a pituitary tumor or other issue.



As for your question your general physician should refer you to a urologist or endocrinologist if you ask.  Expect a 3 to 6 month wait to get into see them unless you have a connection with their office.



Your best for treatment is finding a clinic that specializes in anti-aging or bio-identical hormone replacement therapy.  These doctors usually aren't covered by insurance though, the labs and prescriptions should be.  Here is one organization that certifies doctors, it is who my good doctor is certified through.  http://worldlinkmedical.com/directory/

good questions.
I have all the connections in the medical field to get in to see just about anyone with a phone call. problem finding and correction would be my first goal.

fertility isn't really an issue, High end values would enable me to hit long term goals of being the best I can be and feel are.

 
A good doctor should ask for a second testosterone lab to confirm low testosterone.  So expect that no matter who you go to.  

If you care about trying to restart your natural production or to determine if your hypogonadism is primary or secondary a clomid test should be the first thing you ask for.  There is information out there on it, basically a 6 week trial of clomid to see if your numbers change.  Clomid will kick the production of LH and FSH into over drive.  Labs for LH and FSH should be done before and after the treatment as well.  If LH and FSH increase, that rules out pituitary problems.  If testosterone levels increase with the increase in LH then that rules out primary hypogandism.  That doesn't tell you much other than that your boys can work fine if given a high enough dose of LH.  After the 6 weeks you stop the clomid, wait another 4 to 6 weeks and see where your T level is.  If it dropped back down to 200 then you probably can't restart your natural T.

After that your treatments are:




1. Continue clomid, it works well for some but has side effects due to higher estrogen levels




2. Pellets, get the implants and forget about a daily or weekly medication.  It is the least adjustable and least flexible option.




3. Prescription Creams.  Some people deal with the them fine other don't like them or feel they don't really work after a few months.  They are messy and cross contamination with any female that comes into contact with you is a big concern.




4. Compound creams.  These would come from an anti-aging or hormone doctor.  Creams are supposed to convert from testosterone to DHT at a higher rate.  DHT is generally what you "feel" when you feel testosterone working.  It is also what causes a receding hairline to recede faster.




5. Testosterone injections.  This is the most flexible and controllable option out there.  Injecting twice a week reduces the up and down swing of hormone levels.  Most doctors won't prescribe it that way though.  If you are lucky they will prescribe once a week and many prescribe only once every two weeks.  The prescription doesn't really matter, you can split the doses and inject more often.  It is just doctors that know what they are doing will prescribe the more frequent injections.

HCG, is in addition to Testosterone.  It helps maintain fertility and it also helps reduce testicular atrophy.

My doctor had me on a treatment of Testosterone injected at 50mg twice a week, 0.3ml of a compounded testosterone cream 200mg/ml, and HCG 3 to 4 times a week.  I was using the dose of 500iu.  On that treatment my T level is around 1,000 and my fertility is maintained.  The HCG could be dropped to 250iu if fertility wasn't a concern.  




 



The compounded cream is specifically to increase my DHT levels.  Even though my T levels were great my DHT had always registered low.  My DHEA levels were also very low so they had me start taking a DHEA supplement.  Fertility is an issue and cross contamination is now a major concern, so I had them drop the cream from my prescription and bump the T injection up to 80mg twice a week.



 


You can read up on Dr Crisler and his recommended treatments.  He is one of the pioneers of modern day TRT.  He has a book that covers a lot of the information including treatment options, which labs to get, follow up labs...etc.

I could swear you were one of the guys I PM'ed asking specifically where you were getting your T, etc. And you wouldn't tell me.  Which of course makes me think it is not 100% legit or legal.

I will have to  look through my PM inbox and outbox again.

If that truly is the case, then well, you're kinda acting like a jerk.

Thank you BASE.

At least your post here was helpful/constructive.

EDIT:  once I find a local doc who does prescribe T, ...well...actually, the last time I asked, nobody prescribed HCG or Anastrozole, so that now that might be the better route to take with the hopes of a local doc having caught a clue that those two should also be prescribed with the T.  I doubt that I will actually find a doc who actually prescribes either one, so option B is to find a local doc who prescribes T and then bend his ear...have all my past lab results handy...and coax him into writing a hard copy prescription for the HCG and anastrozole.

Once I have those  hard copies in hand, then I can fax or email it anywhere and get my stuff shipped to me. Legitimately.

I see the problem now...

You are deflecting responsibility from your own failure to pursue the issue... And blaming me...

Grow up.

I tried to ask a simple question, really I did.

All I am getting out of you is asshole-ish responses.

Explain to me again how that is not taking responsibility on my part???

Figure it out for yourself...

You are being childish and that might be the root of your failure for a successful go at TRT...


My IM response was succinct, polite and to the point...


It offered you a solution that you were too stubborn or lazy to pursue.


You FAILED.

EXPY wrote:



At this point, there is nothing of value that you have to contribute to me or this thread.

I am putting you on my ignore list.

Congratulations! Out of all the trolls in the rest of GD, you are the very first to earn that distinction.

For the rest of the posters in this thread, and you know who you are, a big THANK YOU! for your positive, constructive, and knowledgeable posts in this thread.  You have helped more lives and possibly saved more marriages than you could possibly imagine.

<begin slow clap>

How do you know???

Ignore list ---that's how a whiney child throwing a tantrum in WalMart would handle criticism...






Your problem is obvious...

I can't hear you over how awesome this ignore feature is.

False childish sense of security...  Peaking from behind your blankie...

Everyone else can...

Maybe that's why your Naval Academy GF dumped you in a week

Very disappointed in you...  


Good luck with your life...

Well sounds great but you have to have a Doctor write the scripts. I dont know if mine will write for injections. I guess I'll try the gel and then get a blood test and sit down and discuss options with him. "T" is great stuff.

Thanks.