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Posted: 12/23/2018 3:01:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Neotopiaman]
Apparently during development of the Raptor rocket engine SpaceX discovered a new super-strong cryoformed Stainless steel type alloy that allowed them to skip building it out of composites and accelerate development.
They are now building the grasshopper-type upper stage test article in Texas: 
Starship/BFR will be the largest, most powerful rocket ever built |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:45:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DarkGray: Axiom is building modules that SpaceX will launch and connect to the ISS and then be used as a stand alone station after the ISS is retired. https://futurism.com/the-byte/photos-fully-private-space-station-construction Starlab has contacted starship to launch its space station. https://www.space.com/spacex-starship-launch-starlab-private-space-station Good. I am glad and understand spacex is trying for reuse of the starship and testing all of that. But that enormous booster just screams payload to orbit. I guess its too early to trust it with expensive modules but I am impatient. I want to see 2001 level space stations and a rebirth of the TWA. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 2:56:17 PM EDT
[#2]
An obvious intermediate step is an expendable, stripped-down, payload only starship while developing re-use. A max-payload starship.
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:00:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperHeavy: I'm not saying it's easy, but controlling spacecraft in space is a well known and perfected science by SpaceX and NASA for years. Starship rolling out of control was most likely caused by them getting rid of their fuel and not a RCS or design failure. I don't have the data to support it but flaps/fins are going to get many people killed. Prior to that it will cause failures. Perhaps a flap got stuck in a position that prevented Starship from being belly (heat tiles) towards the velocity vector. Maybe the plasma got inside Starship through the open Pez dispenser opening if the door never closed properly. The items that some people called ice I suspect were tiles. They seemed to appear immediately after a major fin movement. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:02:46 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: An obvious intermediate step is an expendable, stripped-down, payload only starship while developing re-use. A max-payload starship. Do they still have any of those flapless and heat tile free ship prototypes floating around Star Base? |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:03:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: I don't have the data to support it but flaps/fins are going to get many people killed. Prior to that it will cause failures. Perhaps a flap got stuck in a position that prevented Starship from being belly (heat tiles) towards the velocity vector. Maybe the plasma got inside Starship through the open Pez dispenser opening if the door never closed properly. The items that some people called ice I suspect were tiles. They seemed to appear immediately after a major fin movement. Did the flaps get stuck on the Space Shuttle? Flaps were a non-factor. The lack of a functional RCS to put it into proper orientation for re-entry was the prime cause. Re-entering upside-down is bad, m-kay? |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:03:59 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hesperus: Do they still have any of those flapless and heat tile free ship prototypes floating around Star Base? I wonder. Add a PEZ dispenser and make every other flight an operational Starlink deployment mission. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:03:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dagger41: I think they lost control shortly after MECO and the ship started venting lots of propellant. There was something happening at the aft end. Was that a deliberate venting? I would not think so. Perhaps some piping ruptured and they could not do the test Raptor restart due to lack of fuel and/or oxidizer. I doubt that we will hear about it since that could have been due to the hot-staging stupidity. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:04:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HeavyMetal]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: There was something happening at the aft end. Was that a deliberate venting? I would not think so. Perhaps some piping ruptured and they could not do the test Raptor restart due to lack of fuel and/or oxidizer. I doubt that we will hear about it since that could have been due to the hot-staging stupidity. I think they couldn’t do the raptor test because they couldn’t point it where they needed to. Some of y’all need to remember the Shuttle was still at least partially under RCS control till it was sub-100K feet. Thats about 20 miles high. Flaps alone ain’t doing shit at 50-60 miles high. Between 60 and 20 miles is where you are going to be making plasma. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:07:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: I think they couldn’t do the raptor test because they could t point it where they needed to. It did seem to be spinning around multiple axis. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:08:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise: It did seem to be spinning around multiple axis. It seemed to be stabilized on its long axis from the film I posted. More or less. Likely accidental due to the roll. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:08:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: 462m above sea level they said it exploded. Before they said that, I was wondering if just the latency in video transmission was why the video we saw was cut off just above the water. At the last speed shown on the telemetry, that was about 1.5 seconds from impact with the water. Booster slams the water, and the last bit of video isn't transmitted. Of course, if they said it actually exploded, that will be interesting to find out what went wrong there. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By Dagger41: Interesting. The booster blew up before it hit the water. FTS was 'safed' also.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t3LjtIvpeUBefore they said that, I was wondering if just the latency in video transmission was why the video we saw was cut off just above the water. At the last speed shown on the telemetry, that was about 1.5 seconds from impact with the water. Booster slams the water, and the last bit of video isn't transmitted. Of course, if they said it actually exploded, that will be interesting to find out what went wrong there. Is there a reason they can't just let it hit the water assuming there's nothing in the area? Is it just an abundance of safety thing? |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:09:50 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: I get the impression the cold gas RCS is a quick and dirty hack to kick the can down the road on the hot gas system. With the amount that the ship was venting, a hot gas thruster firing up would have been quite spectacular followed by an immediate LOS. LOL |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:10:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Is there a reason they can't just let it hit the water assuming there's nothing in the area? Is it just an abundance of safety thing? Because they want to do a hover to demonstrate the conditions for a Mechazilla capture. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:10:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: I don't have the data to support it but flaps/fins are going to get many people killed. Prior to that it will cause failures. Perhaps a flap got stuck in a position that prevented Starship from being belly (heat tiles) towards the velocity vector. Maybe the plasma got inside Starship through the open Pez dispenser opening if the door never closed properly. The items that some people called ice I suspect were tiles. They seemed to appear immediately after a major fin movement. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: Originally Posted By SuperHeavy: I'm not saying it's easy, but controlling spacecraft in space is a well known and perfected science by SpaceX and NASA for years. Starship rolling out of control was most likely caused by them getting rid of their fuel and not a RCS or design failure. I don't have the data to support it but flaps/fins are going to get many people killed. Prior to that it will cause failures. Perhaps a flap got stuck in a position that prevented Starship from being belly (heat tiles) towards the velocity vector. Maybe the plasma got inside Starship through the open Pez dispenser opening if the door never closed properly. The items that some people called ice I suspect were tiles. They seemed to appear immediately after a major fin movement.  Hard to imagine you don't have any data to support something you completely made up that may or may not happen sometime in the future. 
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:11:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: I think they couldn’t do the raptor test because they couldn’t point it where they needed to. Some of y’all need to remember the Shuttle was still at least partially under RCS control till it was sub-100K feet. Thats about 20 miles high. Flaps alone ain’t doing shit at 50-60 miles high. Between 60 and 20 miles is where you are going to be making plasma. It was at 100 km when the plasma was seen on a fin/flap. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:11:17 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: An obvious intermediate step is an expendable, stripped-down, payload only starship while developing re-use. A max-payload starship. It looks inevitable at this point. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:11:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HeavyMetal]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dagger41: With the amount that the ship was venting, a hot gas thruster firing up would have been quite spectacular followed by an immediate LOS. LOL It’s venting into a vacuum. It’s hard (not impossible) to make the necessary conditions for the LEL of Methane in that environment. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:11:49 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fox2008: Hard to imagine you don't have any data to support something you completely made up that may or may not happen sometime in the future. It is called common sense. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:12:23 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: It was at 100 km when the plasma was seen on a fin/flap. That’s 60 miles. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:13:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: It is called common sense. Why is it common sense? How many Shuttles crashed due to flap failure? The shuttle was covered with them. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:13:59 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fox2008: Hard to imagine you don't have any data to support something you completely made up that may or may not happen sometime in the future. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:14:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cypher15: What he said is basically nonsense. The thing was barrel rolling since the prop transfer. It looked like the ullage RCS valve stuck open and vented all the pressure required to run those thrusters. That sounds plausible. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:14:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dagger41: It looks inevitable at this point. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:16:30 PM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:17:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: It is called common sense. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: It is called common sense. Originally Posted By HeavyMetal: That’s 60 miles.  That lined up pretty well. 
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:23:12 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fox2008: That lined up pretty well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fox2008: Originally Posted By AmericanPeople: It is called common sense. Originally Posted By HeavyMetal: That’s 60 miles. That lined up pretty well. Hard to take much of what someone says seriously after something like that.
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:24:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: It’s venting into a vacuum. It’s hard (not impossible) to make the necessary conditions for the LEL of Methane in that environment. Who knows how much gas was hanging around in the aft section, basically in the engine bay. With no aerodynamic drag at that altitude to carry it away and the amount of it being vented, it may indeed have kaboomed if lit. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:39:49 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dagger41: Who knows how much gas was hanging around in the aft section, basically in the engine bay. With no aerodynamic drag at that altitude to carry it away and the amount of it being vented, it may indeed have kaboomed if lit. Still have to have an oxidizer and both have to be present in minimal concentrations. Remember the combustion triangle. Fuel, oxidizer and source of ignition. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 3:58:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Maybe I'm thinking of something else. But isn't Musk on the clock for getting this thing space flight worthy. Maybe it was a different rocket. But I could have sworn I remember reading or seeing a YouTube video that Spaceship is starting to get to a do or die phase No, it's definitely this rocket. I don't know the latest count but last I checked SpaceX needs like 15 launches just to support Artemis 3. 1) Build and launch Orbital Fuel Depot 2) Some very large number of launches to fill the fuel depot (possibly 10+) 3) Build and launch Starship Human Landing System and put it in orbit around the moon ready to receive astronauts I think these are all achievable things but whether they can get it done by 2026 is another thing all together. I'm not confident that Elon and SpaceX are taking the most direct line to solving the lunar landing problem as opposed to using the Artemis project as a spring board for solving other much more difficult problems. Is it really the best way to get a lander to the moon by having 15 super heavy launches to transport a vehicle to which far exceeds the actual requirements of the mission? I mean, if they can do it, we'll have an incredible capability going forward, but we don't actually need a 160 foot tall by 30 diameter lander just to get dudes down to the lunar surface to do some science and dunk on the Chinese.  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 4:02:24 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cypher15: NASA's schedule has the HLS lander uncrewed landing happening in the same year as the manned landing..  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cypher15: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Maybe I'm thinking of something else. But isn't Musk on the clock for getting this thing space flight worthy. Maybe it was a different rocket. But I could have sworn I remember reading or seeing a YouTube video that Spaceship is starting to get to a do or die phase That wouldn't be entirely different than how NASA did things with Apollo. They moved from milestone to milestone very quickly. The first Saturn V flight ever (Apollo 4), to the first flight around the moon (Apollo 8), the the first lunar landing rehersal mission (Apollo 10), to the actual landing (Apollo 11) was all within a 20 month period. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 4:10:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: An obvious intermediate step is an expendable, stripped-down, payload only starship while developing re-use. A max-payload starship. Absolutely. It's a helluva rocket even if you planned on chucking it into the ocean every time like every single other rocket on the planet other than the Falcon 9. I'm sure that's in the conversation somewhere but knowing Elon Musk, he likes the idea of aspirational goals to keep people moving so he won't let SpaceX telegraph that possibility that until necessary. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 4:29:28 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: Because they want to do a hover to demonstrate the conditions for a Mechazilla capture. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Is there a reason they can't just let it hit the water assuming there's nothing in the area? Is it just an abundance of safety thing? Because they want to do a hover to demonstrate the conditions for a Mechazilla capture. The plan was for it to splash down so I am asking why it can't crash down in the water. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 4:44:19 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: The plan was for it to splash down so I am asking why it can't crash down in the water. My understanding was it RUD'ed at about 400m AGL. Not within the Flight Control's control. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 5:20:07 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: There was something happening at the aft end. Was that a deliberate venting? I would not think so. Perhaps some piping ruptured and they could not do the test Raptor restart due to lack of fuel and/or oxidizer. I doubt that we will hear about it since that could have been due to the hot-staging stupidity. The hot staging didn’t cause any issues at all. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 6:28:07 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By woodsie: That wouldn't be entirely different than how NASA did things with Apollo. They moved from milestone to milestone very quickly. The first Saturn V flight ever (Apollo 4), to the first flight around the moon (Apollo 8), the the first lunar landing rehersal mission (Apollo 10), to the actual landing (Apollo 11) was all within a 20 month period. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 6:34:25 PM EDT
[#36]
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MT, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 6:43:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIqqSKvWkAA0zgL?format=jpg&name=small
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Posted: 3/15/2024 7:04:15 PM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 3/15/2024 7:10:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AgeOne: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIqqSKvWkAA0zgL?format=jpg&name=small “Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now.” ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 7:46:44 PM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 3/15/2024 7:49:01 PM EDT
[#41]
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) March 15, 2024 |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 7:53:00 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 3/15/2024 7:58:54 PM EDT
[#43]
Venting does not mean fuel or oxidizer necessarily.
There are long CO2 tanks under some of the strakes as you might call them on the booster, the long triangular shaped things on the lower 1/3rd. They are used for fire suppression in the engine bay area to purge out any flammable mixtures during the ascent phase in the areas of the engines turbopump and feed line area. There is zoomed footage (Everyday Astronaut/Cosmic Perspective) from IFT-1 that shows what appears to be fires in the area above the engines and also blowing out of the side panels in said compartments. One of the items on investigation report mentioned upping fire suppression capability before IFT-2. You would assume there is a similar system on the ship as well so whenever venting is seen, it could very well be CO2 and not explodey stuff. IFT-1 footage that shows the fires and such starting after 7:30. Make sure you select the 4K feed   Starship Test Flight 1 // 4K Slow Mo Supercut w/ Tracking and Incredible Audio |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 7:59:54 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 3/15/2024 8:39:56 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HeavyMetal: Still have to have an oxidizer and both have to be present in minimal concentrations. Remember the combustion triangle. Fuel, oxidizer and source of ignition. True. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 9:19:05 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RattleCanAR: The cold gas system was working overtime and obviously not up to the task. It puffed constantly during the coast. Think they ran out of N2, or just didn't have enough specific impulse? |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 9:27:24 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: Maybe I'm thinking of something else. But isn't Musk on the clock for getting this thing space flight worthy. Maybe it was a different rocket. But I could have sworn I remember reading or seeing a YouTube video that Spaceship is starting to get to a do or die phase Nah. Plenty of time with all the Senate Launch System delays. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 9:31:52 PM EDT
[#48]
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VA, USA
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Posted: 3/15/2024 9:35:17 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AmericanPeople: It is called common sense. ... Like gun control? Yeah, OK Bub. |
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Posted: 3/15/2024 9:42:43 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SpanishInquisition: ... Like gun control? Yeah, OK Bub. Don't let libs co-opt everything. |
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