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Posted: 2/19/2017 5:24:39 PM EDT
[#1]
There is probably some information missing from that statement. From my understanding, high angle of attack causes stalls, not low airspeed. If the pilot lost airspeed but tried to maintain his attitude, his angle of attack is eventually (quickly, probably) going to increase until the wing stalls.
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Posted: 2/19/2017 5:52:29 PM EDT
[#2]
OP, I think you're right. I suspect the pilot in the original story did a little more than just take the power out. I suspect he was at a high angle of attack while landing, pulled the power and lost airspeed or slightly increased the angle of attack, causing the stall. As you imply, the problem with the hershey bar wings is that they are all or nothing in terms of lift. Since the chord is nearly constant, all parts of the wing lose lift at the same time. Stalls are sudden, and without much warning.
I do as you say. Trim for speed and go up or down with the throttle. If I trim for 65 kts with full flaps, I can descend like Wile E. Coyote three steps off a cliff. |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 7:44:28 PM EDT
[#3]
here are the quotes.
I have a 73 Arrow with the extended Hershey bar wing. It doesn't float and glide as nice as the tapered wing. You gotta keep the power up and fly it to the runway. If the pilot was unfamiliar with this plane, they may have gotten behind the power curve and let it get too low and slow. My 'benefit of the doubt they didn't run out of fuel' guess is he got slow and sinky on approach, got behind the power curve and never put the nose down to get it climbing. I assume they mean the guy let the plane slow down too much? But if so, then he wasn't trimmed right I assume? |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 8:08:50 PM EDT
[#4]
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On one of the FB flying group pages there was someone talking about an accident where the plan stalled. It was regarding a PA-24 with the Hershey bar wings. They said that the pilot took out the power and the plane just stopped flying? That sounded weird to me, since I thought that you trim for airspeed and then use the power for altitude. So, regardless if you have power or not and the airspeed is right, you shouldn't just fall out of the sky. Is that right? Maybe i misunderstood what he said. |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 8:31:46 PM EDT
[#5]
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When I flew high wings like Cessnas you could throttle back around garage height and that sucker would still float halfway down the runway. Then when you fly low wing a/c you land with a little power almost till touchdown, not much power just 200 rpm above idle. About the only time you should hear the stall warning constantly is doing a short field landing. In reality landing is a stall two inches off the ground Quote HistoryQuoted:
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On one of the FB flying group pages there was someone talking about an accident where the plan stalled. It was regarding a PA-24 with the Hershey bar wings. They said that the pilot took out the power and the plane just stopped flying? That sounded weird to me, since I thought that you trim for airspeed and then use the power for altitude. So, regardless if you have power or not and the airspeed is right, you shouldn't just fall out of the sky. Is that right? Maybe i misunderstood what he said. I see what you mean. That makes sense then, you really can't glide a low Wing in like you can with a 172. On a different note, it sounds like a low wing Ian easier to land than a high wing? |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 8:32:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Did the same thing in a Lance in a very short field situation with tall trees on approach end. Thought I could do it the same as in a C182. Yup, cut throttle on top of the last row of trees and it "Stopped" flying. Thank God for 300 hp and light. It was a carrier landing, hard and short but no damage. Hershey bar wings don't float.
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Posted: 2/19/2017 8:36:05 PM EDT
[#7]
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here are the quotes. I assume they mean the guy let the plane slow down too much? But if so, then he wasn't trimmed right I assume? It doesn't have anything to do with speed or trim, only AOA. In PPL training the only stalls you get to experience are low speed stalls. I believe this leads new pilots into believing that stalls only happen at slow speeds. If possible, have your instructor demonstrate high speed stalls. Before the lesson read all you can about AOA and discuss with the instructor before the flight. After you see one first hand you will really have a good understanding of AOA and it's relation to an airplane wing stalling. |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 8:39:56 PM EDT
[#8]
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Did the same thing in a Lance in a very short field situation with tall trees on approach end. Thought I could do it the same as in a C182. Yup, cut throttle on top of the last row of trees and it "Stopped" flying. Thank God for 300 hp and light. It was a carrier landing, hard and short but no damage. Hershey bar wings don't float. I got my complex checkoff in a Piper Arrow. For a short field landing all you had to do was wait until the wheels were over intended target, pull power, and BAM!!! Nail it every time. 
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Posted: 2/19/2017 8:41:27 PM EDT
[#9]
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It doesn't have anything to do with speed or trim, only AOA. In PPL training the only stalls you get to experience are low speed stalls. I believe this leads new pilots into believing that stalls only happen at slow speeds. If possible, have your instructor demonstrate high speed stalls. Before the lesson read all you can about AOA and discuss with the instructor before the flight. After you see one first hand you will really have a good understanding of AOA and it's relation to an airplane wing stalling. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
here are the quotes. I assume they mean the guy let the plane slow down too much? But if so, then he wasn't trimmed right I assume? It doesn't have anything to do with speed or trim, only AOA. In PPL training the only stalls you get to experience are low speed stalls. I believe this leads new pilots into believing that stalls only happen at slow speeds. If possible, have your instructor demonstrate high speed stalls. Before the lesson read all you can about AOA and discuss with the instructor before the flight. After you see one first hand you will really have a good understanding of AOA and it's relation to an airplane wing stalling. We did stalls where we were at full throttle and then he told me to pull back until the plane fell. We were at Va. I think approx 100-110 kts |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 8:44:09 PM EDT
[#10]
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Did the same thing in a Lance in a very short field situation with tall trees on approach end. Thought I could do it the same as in a C182. Yup, cut throttle on top of the last row of trees and it "Stopped" flying. Thank God for 300 hp and light. It was a carrier landing, hard and short but no damage. Hershey bar wings don't float. Damn....I'm glad to know this. seems like my current landing technique needs some work so I don't stall a low wing if I ever fly one |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 8:53:22 PM EDT
[#11]
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I see what you mean. That makes sense then, you really can't glide a low Wing in like you can with a 172. On a different note, it sounds like a low wing Ian easier to land than a high wing? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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On one of the FB flying group pages there was someone talking about an accident where the plan stalled. It was regarding a PA-24 with the Hershey bar wings. They said that the pilot took out the power and the plane just stopped flying? That sounded weird to me, since I thought that you trim for airspeed and then use the power for altitude. So, regardless if you have power or not and the airspeed is right, you shouldn't just fall out of the sky. Is that right? Maybe i misunderstood what he said. I see what you mean. That makes sense then, you really can't glide a low Wing in like you can with a 172. On a different note, it sounds like a low wing Ian easier to land than a high wing? Hell, if you do it right, you can cut power when you turn final on a 172. You think you are set up to touch down on the numbers and still float halfway down the runway. 
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Posted: 2/19/2017 8:56:20 PM EDT
[#12]
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We did stalls where we were at full throttle and then he told me to pull back until the plane fell. We were at Va. I think approx 100-110 kts Those are more fun when you take them into a spin!
Btw, I thought the F4 Phantom was the only plane the behaved like a brick when you cat power... |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 9:00:11 PM EDT
[#13]
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Hell, if you do it right, you can cut power when you turn final on a 172. You think you are set up to touch down on the numbers and still float halfway down the runway. Sorry, I read downwind, I was thinking a close pattern technique to get Max landings/min hobbs. 
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Posted: 2/19/2017 9:02:09 PM EDT
[#14]
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Rental right? Talk about thermal shock! Sigh |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 9:27:24 PM EDT
[#15]
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Sigh Yet another aviation myth. 
Early radials did suffer from thermal shock but flat engines don't. You'd have to do a power off descent from the flight levels to induce a serious thermal shock. OP- fly your approach to landing at 1.3 VS0, regardless of the power setting. You'll find that it takes an attitude to achieve it, with translates to an AoA. Any speed you carry into the landing has to be dissipated somehow- distance or brakes usually- so why carry the speed and power (disregarding gust factor). Landing roll-out accidents are far too frequent because pilots carry too much juice to the runway. |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 9:35:55 PM EDT
[#16]
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Yet another aviation myth.
Early radials did suffer from thermal shock but flat engines don't. You'd have to do a power off descent from the flight levels to induce a serious thermal shock. OP- fly your approach to landing at 1.3 VS0, regardless of the power setting. You'll find that it takes an attitude to achieve it, with translates to an AoA. Any speed you carry into the landing has to be dissipated somehow- distance or brakes usually- so why carry the speed and power (disregarding gust factor). Landing roll-out accidents are far too frequent because pilots carry too much juice to the runway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Sigh Yet another aviation myth.
Early radials did suffer from thermal shock but flat engines don't. You'd have to do a power off descent from the flight levels to induce a serious thermal shock. OP- fly your approach to landing at 1.3 VS0, regardless of the power setting. You'll find that it takes an attitude to achieve it, with translates to an AoA. Any speed you carry into the landing has to be dissipated somehow- distance or brakes usually- so why carry the speed and power (disregarding gust factor). Landing roll-out accidents are far too frequent because pilots carry too much juice to the runway. I'm normally around that, 65-65 knots, and it's a nice and easy turn to final. |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 9:37:00 PM EDT
[#17]
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Damn....I'm glad to know this. seems like my current landing technique needs some work so I don't stall a low wing if I ever fly one It has nothing to do with high vs. low wing. Put that Piper wing on your 172 and it'll do the same thing. Aspect ratio and wing area play a big part. The "short wing" RVs (3, 4, 6, 7, 8) sink like that too, if you get to high AOA. The -9 also has a rectangular wing but it's longer and thinner (higher aspect ratio) and has a different airfoil; it floats a lot better. |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 9:44:05 PM EDT
[#18]
Watch commercial aviation pilots, even as a passenger sometimes you can sense the landing will not be a greaser. Then there are flights when you see the pilot is smooth. I think the best flight I ever had as a pax was a AA727 into LGA at night. The pilot did not jockey the throttle back and forth, he set flaps and throttled back to a low setting, he did not touch the throttle until he was one foot above the runway where he idled, a greaser
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Posted: 2/19/2017 9:47:24 PM EDT
[#19]
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Watch commercial aviation pilots, even as a passenger sometimes you can sense the landing will not be a greaser. Then there are flights when you see the pilot is smooth. I think the best flight I ever had as a pax was a AA727 into LGA at night. The pilot did not jockey the throttle back and forth, he set flaps and throttled back to a low setting, he did not touch the throttle until he was one foot above the runway where he idled, a greaser Very nice! And hard to do. |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 9:57:19 PM EDT
[#20]
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Very nice! And hard to do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Watch commercial aviation pilots, even as a passenger sometimes you can sense the landing will not be a greaser. Then there are flights when you see the pilot is smooth. I think the best flight I ever had as a pax was a AA727 into LGA at night. The pilot did not jockey the throttle back and forth, he set flaps and throttled back to a low setting, he did not touch the throttle until he was one foot above the runway where he idled, a greaser Very nice! And hard to do. |
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Posted: 2/19/2017 10:02:57 PM EDT
[#21]
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It has nothing to do with high vs. low wing. Put that Piper wing on your 172 and it'll do the same thing. Aspect ratio and wing area play a big part. The "short wing" RVs (3, 4, 6, 7, 8) sink like that too, if you get to high AOA. The -9 also has a rectangular wing but it's longer and thinner (higher aspect ratio) and has a different airfoil; it floats a lot better. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Damn....I'm glad to know this. seems like my current landing technique needs some work so I don't stall a low wing if I ever fly one It has nothing to do with high vs. low wing. Put that Piper wing on your 172 and it'll do the same thing. Aspect ratio and wing area play a big part. The "short wing" RVs (3, 4, 6, 7, 8) sink like that too, if you get to high AOA. The -9 also has a rectangular wing but it's longer and thinner (higher aspect ratio) and has a different airfoil; it floats a lot better. That makes sense. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 9:13:55 AM EDT
[#22]
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Those are more fun when you take them into a spin!
Btw, I thought the F4 Phantom was the only plane the behaved like a brick when you cat power... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
We did stalls where we were at full throttle and then he told me to pull back until the plane fell. We were at Va. I think approx 100-110 kts Those are more fun when you take them into a spin!
Btw, I thought the F4 Phantom was the only plane the behaved like a brick when you cat power... King air with 4 bladed props is like hitting a wall of water when you pull the power to idle. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 9:21:01 AM EDT
[#23]
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Watch commercial aviation pilots, even as a passenger sometimes you can sense the landing will not be a greaser. Then there are flights when you see the pilot is smooth. I think the best flight I ever had as a pax was a AA727 into LGA at night. The pilot did not jockey the throttle back and forth, he set flaps and throttled back to a low setting, he did not touch the throttle until he was one foot above the runway where he idled, a greaser I learned pretty quick training guys to land learjets that throttle jockeys chasing airpeed will attack the earth almost every time. (you can tell when an airline landing is going to be a crusher using this too) Find the power setting that holds the airspeed you want and leave it alone. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 11:13:57 AM EDT
[#24]
I fucked up in a rental Archer once. I'd been used to flying one with the airspeed indicator calibrated in knots. I rented one in mph and didn't understand the significance of briefing the color codes on the airspeed indicator at that point in my flying experience. I had a heavy passenger with me, pulled power and the thing dropped like a rock. I managed to get full power in before I hit so I bounced way up, assisted by power, and then landed the plane.
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Posted: 2/20/2017 11:49:44 AM EDT
[#25]
I get the idea that pulling the power to idle abeam the numbers and making a good landing on the numbers is a lost art.
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Posted: 2/20/2017 12:12:11 PM EDT
[#26]
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I get the idea that pulling the power to idle abeam the numbers and making a good landing on the numbers is a lost art. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 12:13:36 PM EDT
[#27]
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I fucked up in a rental Archer once. I'd been used to flying one with the airspeed indicator calibrated in knots. I rented one in mph and didn't understand the significance of briefing the color codes on the airspeed indicator at that point in my flying experience. I had a heavy passenger with me, pulled power and the thing dropped like a rock. I managed to get full power in before I hit so I bounced way up, assisted by power, and then landed the plane.
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Posted: 2/20/2017 12:36:51 PM EDT
[#28]
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I get the idea that pulling the power to idle abeam the numbers and making a good landing on the numbers is a lost art. This is the technique that I was taught and still use every time. Had an excellent instructor. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:04:48 PM EDT
[#29]
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I want to imitate that flight every time out. Every plane I have flown I try to learn its "numbers" especially landing. What one combination of flaps, gear and MP/RPM give me a desired result. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Watch commercial aviation pilots, even as a passenger sometimes you can sense the landing will not be a greaser. Then there are flights when you see the pilot is smooth. I think the best flight I ever had as a pax was a AA727 into LGA at night. The pilot did not jockey the throttle back and forth, he set flaps and throttled back to a low setting, he did not touch the throttle until he was one foot above the runway where he idled, a greaser Very nice! And hard to do. 
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Posted: 2/20/2017 1:04:58 PM EDT
[#30]
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When I flew high wings like Cessnas you could throttle back around garage height and that sucker would still float halfway down the runway. Then when you fly low wing a/c you land with a little power almost till touchdown, not much power just 200 rpm above idle. About the only time you should hear the stall warning constantly is doing a short field landing. In reality landing is a stall two inches off the ground Flew PA-28 Cherokees extensively back in the day. Throttle to Idle at threshold was the drill then. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 2:04:14 PM EDT
[#31]
Power settings matter for your rate of descent; you should be managing speed with the flight control surfaces. You should be at Vso * 1.3 on final, cross the threshold at Vso * 1.2 and hold the plane off until it touches. Max gross Vso is the bottom of the white arc on the ASI. Vsi is the bottom of the green arc. If you're lighter than max gross, then your stall speed will go down a bit, but with light GA aircraft it won't make too much difference. If I cross the numbers in my Mooney at 80 mph heavy vs light, it just sets down a little bit sooner. If I really need to make a touchdown point, I configure early, hold it in slow flight in ground effect and cut the throttle when I'm where I want to drop it and you can land it wherever you want. This applies for all the light piston aircraft that I've flown.
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Posted: 2/20/2017 3:38:07 PM EDT
[#32]
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I fucked up in a rental Archer once. I'd been used to flying one with the airspeed indicator calibrated in knots. I rented one in mph and didn't understand the significance of briefing the color codes on the airspeed indicator at that point in my flying experience. I had a heavy passenger with me, pulled power and the thing dropped like a rock. I managed to get full power in before I hit so I bounced way up, assisted by power, and then landed the plane. With a constant chord wing, the 'hershey bar' Piper wing, the increased airflow over the inner wing, from the prop wash, is providing a considerable portion of the total lift. When you get 'low and slow', you are basically just hanging on the wing roots, sort of. Additionally, aileron effectiveness is minimal, at best. So when you pull the power, suddenly there is not enough lift to support you, and you just drop out. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 6:01:14 PM EDT
[#33]
One of the reasons I got my Instrument rating was precise flying, but I really got a feeling for landings doing short and soft fields for the commercial. When I took my check ride the examiner could have held a open hot coffee container and not spilled a drop
. A low wing complex a/c, a good headwind and flying by the numbers
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Posted: 2/20/2017 6:54:04 PM EDT
[#34]
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Power settings matter for your rate of descent; you should be managing speed with the flight control surfaces. You should be at Vso * 1.3 on final, cross the threshold at Vso * 1.2 and hold the plane off until it touches. Max gross Vso is the bottom of the white arc on the ASI. Vsi is the bottom of the green arc. If you're lighter than max gross, then your stall speed will go down a bit, but with light GA aircraft it won't make too much difference. If I cross the numbers in my Mooney at 80 mph heavy vs light, it just sets down a little bit sooner. If I really need to make a touchdown point, I configure early, hold it in slow flight in ground effect and cut the throttle when I'm where I want to drop it and you can land it wherever you want. This applies for all the light piston aircraft that I've flown. I think I'm just a little too fast, I probably should trim the plane up some more. Not much more though, I'm at idle before I cross the numbers, I just need to be more patient and less tense. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 7:10:24 PM EDT
[#35]
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I think I'm just a little too fast, I probably should trim the plane up some more. Not much more though, I'm at idle before I cross the numbers, I just need to be more patient and less tense. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Power settings matter for your rate of descent; you should be managing speed with the flight control surfaces. You should be at Vso * 1.3 on final, cross the threshold at Vso * 1.2 and hold the plane off until it touches. Max gross Vso is the bottom of the white arc on the ASI. Vsi is the bottom of the green arc. If you're lighter than max gross, then your stall speed will go down a bit, but with light GA aircraft it won't make too much difference. If I cross the numbers in my Mooney at 80 mph heavy vs light, it just sets down a little bit sooner. If I really need to make a touchdown point, I configure early, hold it in slow flight in ground effect and cut the throttle when I'm where I want to drop it and you can land it wherever you want. This applies for all the light piston aircraft that I've flown. I think I'm just a little too fast, I probably should trim the plane up some more. Not much more though, I'm at idle before I cross the numbers, I just need to be more patient and less tense. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 7:28:05 PM EDT
[#36]
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How many hours you got in and what rating? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Power settings matter for your rate of descent; you should be managing speed with the flight control surfaces. You should be at Vso * 1.3 on final, cross the threshold at Vso * 1.2 and hold the plane off until it touches. Max gross Vso is the bottom of the white arc on the ASI. Vsi is the bottom of the green arc. If you're lighter than max gross, then your stall speed will go down a bit, but with light GA aircraft it won't make too much difference. If I cross the numbers in my Mooney at 80 mph heavy vs light, it just sets down a little bit sooner. If I really need to make a touchdown point, I configure early, hold it in slow flight in ground effect and cut the throttle when I'm where I want to drop it and you can land it wherever you want. This applies for all the light piston aircraft that I've flown. I think I'm just a little too fast, I probably should trim the plane up some more. Not much more though, I'm at idle before I cross the numbers, I just need to be more patient and less tense. 8 and no rating.
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Posted: 2/20/2017 8:24:33 PM EDT
[#37]
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8 and no rating. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Power settings matter for your rate of descent; you should be managing speed with the flight control surfaces. You should be at Vso * 1.3 on final, cross the threshold at Vso * 1.2 and hold the plane off until it touches. Max gross Vso is the bottom of the white arc on the ASI. Vsi is the bottom of the green arc. If you're lighter than max gross, then your stall speed will go down a bit, but with light GA aircraft it won't make too much difference. If I cross the numbers in my Mooney at 80 mph heavy vs light, it just sets down a little bit sooner. If I really need to make a touchdown point, I configure early, hold it in slow flight in ground effect and cut the throttle when I'm where I want to drop it and you can land it wherever you want. This applies for all the light piston aircraft that I've flown. I think I'm just a little too fast, I probably should trim the plane up some more. Not much more though, I'm at idle before I cross the numbers, I just need to be more patient and less tense. 8 and no rating. |
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Posted: 2/20/2017 9:17:48 PM EDT
[#38]
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When you solo it will be anticlimactic, if your instructor is good you will do about at least 10 hours of touch and goes before you solo. Master slow flight. If you can control the airplane precisely in slow flight it will go a long way to mastering landings Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Power settings matter for your rate of descent; you should be managing speed with the flight control surfaces. You should be at Vso * 1.3 on final, cross the threshold at Vso * 1.2 and hold the plane off until it touches. Max gross Vso is the bottom of the white arc on the ASI. Vsi is the bottom of the green arc. If you're lighter than max gross, then your stall speed will go down a bit, but with light GA aircraft it won't make too much difference. If I cross the numbers in my Mooney at 80 mph heavy vs light, it just sets down a little bit sooner. If I really need to make a touchdown point, I configure early, hold it in slow flight in ground effect and cut the throttle when I'm where I want to drop it and you can land it wherever you want. This applies for all the light piston aircraft that I've flown. I think I'm just a little too fast, I probably should trim the plane up some more. Not much more though, I'm at idle before I cross the numbers, I just need to be more patient and less tense. 8 and no rating. I sure hope so, I'll have a lot of TNG practice between now and my solo due to getting my medical |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:15:54 AM EDT
[#39]
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Landing roll-out accidents are far too frequent because pilots carry too much juice to the runway. No truer words were ever spoken. During my cross country flights, I would tend to carry more speed than necessary, and that 172 would float down the runway, and you're trying to force it to land. Now I make sure to get my speed under control almost as soon as I enter the 45 for the downwind. Once I started managing my speed earlier, the extreme floating disappeared and landings became much prettier and less exciting. They're right when they say: 'You now have a license to learn'. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 12:01:46 PM EDT
[#40]
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No truer words were ever spoken. During my cross country flights, I would tend to carry more speed than necessary, and that 172 would float down the runway, and you're trying to force it to land. Now I make sure to get my speed under control almost as soon as I enter the 45 for the downwind. Once I started managing my speed earlier, the extreme floating disappeared and landings became much prettier and less exciting. They're right when they say: 'You now have a license to learn'. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Landing roll-out accidents are far too frequent because pilots carry too much juice to the runway. No truer words were ever spoken. During my cross country flights, I would tend to carry more speed than necessary, and that 172 would float down the runway, and you're trying to force it to land. Now I make sure to get my speed under control almost as soon as I enter the 45 for the downwind. Once I started managing my speed earlier, the extreme floating disappeared and landings became much prettier and less exciting. They're right when they say: 'You now have a license to learn'. is it just a bad habit that forms over time? |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 12:30:01 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
is it just a bad habit that forms over time? No. It's failure to control airspeed and likely something that wasn't effectively taught to the student in primary training. If you learn to fly in a 172 or a piper at a small field with a 7000 ft runway, you can fly down to the numbers without slowing down so much, pull power, hold off and eventually the plane will land. Fly into a 3000ft field and you might not make it in time. Move up to something slippery that cruises way faster than Vs and try that and you'll overshoot. I learned about the Vso 1.3=>1.2 rule years after getting my rating. The DA-20 is good for making you maintain control of your airspeed, but you can get away with being sloppy and "fast" in a 172 or a Cherokee as those planes have a lot of drag, will bleed off speed quickly and don't go all that fast to begin with. Think of it like docking an 18ft castle-hull boat with an 80HP outboard vs docking a cigarette boat. You can just about pull up to the marina at full speed in the small boat, chop power and drift to the dock. You've got to plan a little ahead with winds, currents and power settings with the race boat if you don't want to smash it against the dock. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 12:40:13 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. It's failure to control airspeed and likely something that wasn't effectively taught to the student in primary training. If you learn to fly in a 172 or a piper at a small field with a 7000 ft runway, you can fly down to the numbers without slowing down so much, pull power, hold off and eventually the plane will land. Fly into a 3000ft field and you might not make it in time. Move up to something slippery that cruises way faster than Vs and try that and you'll overshoot. I learned about the Vso 1.3=>1.2 rule years after getting my rating. The DA-20 is good for making you maintain control of your airspeed, but you can get away with being sloppy and "fast" in a 172 or a Cherokee as those planes have a lot of drag, will bleed off speed quickly and don't go all that fast to begin with. Think of it like docking an 18ft castle-hull boat with an 80HP outboard vs docking a cigarette boat. You can just about pull up to the marina at full speed in the small boat, chop power and drift to the dock. You've got to plan a little ahead with winds, currents and power settings with the race boat if you don't want to smash it against the dock. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
is it just a bad habit that forms over time? No. It's failure to control airspeed and likely something that wasn't effectively taught to the student in primary training. If you learn to fly in a 172 or a piper at a small field with a 7000 ft runway, you can fly down to the numbers without slowing down so much, pull power, hold off and eventually the plane will land. Fly into a 3000ft field and you might not make it in time. Move up to something slippery that cruises way faster than Vs and try that and you'll overshoot. I learned about the Vso 1.3=>1.2 rule years after getting my rating. The DA-20 is good for making you maintain control of your airspeed, but you can get away with being sloppy and "fast" in a 172 or a Cherokee as those planes have a lot of drag, will bleed off speed quickly and don't go all that fast to begin with. Think of it like docking an 18ft castle-hull boat with an 80HP outboard vs docking a cigarette boat. You can just about pull up to the marina at full speed in the small boat, chop power and drift to the dock. You've got to plan a little ahead with winds, currents and power settings with the race boat if you don't want to smash it against the dock. oh ok...that makes perfect sense. We normally practice TNGs at a 2999ft runway and my CFI always thinks I am going to take out the threshold lights....lol (I don't come close, but he wants to make sure I guess) I think you might have told me this..but this is what I try to do when landing...I trim for 60kts then I pick the numbers and pretend like I am on an escalator and try to descend right to them and just use the power to adjust all the while making sure my airspeed is still ok. Is the pretty much the same for all single engine prop planes? I imagine so, because let's say with a hershey bar wing plane, if you pull out too much power, I imagine the plane is going to want to loose airspeed right away given the pitch? |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 1:08:21 PM EDT
[#43]
You should read
Stick and Rudder and Duane Cole's books here and William K. Kershner's fine series of books, here these are older books now, but so are the planes you are flying. and the basics are still the same. a wealth of very practical information that just might save your puckered-up ass one day. LEARN THE BASICS, and LOOK OUT THE WINDOW. Enjoy.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 1:29:08 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You should read Stick and Rudder and Duane Cole's books here and William K. Kershner's fine series of books, here these are older books now, but so are the planes you are flying. and the basics are still the same. a wealth of very practical information that just might save your puckered-up ass one day. LEARN THE BASICS, and LOOK OUT THE WINDOW. Enjoy. Ain't that the truth....
I am going to order them right now. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:14:44 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think you might have told me this..but this is what I try to do when landing...I trim for 60kts then I pick the numbers and pretend like I am on an escalator and try to descend right to them and just use the power to adjust all the while making sure my airspeed is still ok. Is the pretty much the same for all single engine prop planes? I imagine so, because let's say with a hershey bar wing plane, if you pull out too much power, I imagine the plane is going to want to loose airspeed right away given the pitch? SET the power, control speed with PITCH. Use POWER for altitude (as in a go around if you did not control speed or attitude). It works that way for all airplanes, some to a lesser degree than others, but all the fixed gear bug-smashers I've flown over the years fly the same way and damn near the same speeds. |
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Posted: 2/21/2017 8:39:00 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SET the power, control speed with PITCH. Use POWER for altitude (as in a go around if you did not control speed or attitude). It works that way for all airplanes, some to a lesser degree than others, but all the fixed gear bug-smashers I've flown over the years fly the same way and damn near the same speeds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think you might have told me this..but this is what I try to do when landing...I trim for 60kts then I pick the numbers and pretend like I am on an escalator and try to descend right to them and just use the power to adjust all the while making sure my airspeed is still ok. Is the pretty much the same for all single engine prop planes? I imagine so, because let's say with a hershey bar wing plane, if you pull out too much power, I imagine the plane is going to want to loose airspeed right away given the pitch? SET the power, control speed with PITCH. Use POWER for altitude (as in a go around if you did not control speed or attitude). It works that way for all airplanes, some to a lesser degree than others, but all the fixed gear bug-smashers I've flown over the years fly the same way and damn near the same speeds. I guess that's somthing I need to learn how to do. Unless I am doing it already and don't realize it. when the runway is almost 45 degrees behind my shoulder, I'll pull power to about 1500 while keeping the nose level, to get the airspeed in the white arc, then i'll start my base and put down the flaps, trim the plane where it feels good making sure the feel is translating into 60 kts, then I'll make sure I am about 400-500 ft as I turn final and then I'll keep that pitch and use the throttle to hold the glide slope I am on. Since I have been doing that, I have only been too high once or twice, but nothing too bad to where I had to do a go around. I don't know if it's a 172 thing or not but when I have the flaps down and the plane trimmed like that, it seems to be happy.
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Posted: 2/21/2017 10:42:43 PM EDT
[#47]
I was taught to pull power to 1500rpm abeam the numbers, slow up to the white arc, toss in 10 degrees of flaps. When 45 degrees to the threshold, turn base. flaps 20. Turn final, flaps 30.
Hold 60-65kts on final. Power to idle over the threshold, or even earlier if high. I aim for the numbers, my selected touchdown point is the second stripe. I usually touch down within 40-50' of where I want. I'm getting better at it. Used to be, I'd float past the fixed distance markers, because I was flying 70-75kts on final... |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 12:40:01 AM EDT
[#48]
All of that worry and concern about precise airspeed, configuration, rate of descent, runway alignment and stabilized approach is just superficial horse shit.
All that really matters is zero sink at 1/4 " and then just ease it down. |
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:06:47 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All of that worry and concern about precise airspeed, configuration, rate of descent, runway alignment and stabilized approach is just superficial horse shit. All that really matters is zero sink at 1/4 " and then just ease it down. 
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Posted: 2/22/2017 1:40:56 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All of that worry and concern about precise airspeed, configuration, rate of descent, runway alignment and stabilized approach is just superficial horse shit. All that really matters is zero sink at 1/4 " and then just ease it down. |
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