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Posted: 7/29/2015 2:30:20 AM EDT
[#1]
Stupid question, but I want to know how long did they wait to push the issue?
I don't know anything about flying, but I'm assuming there's a "normal" point at which you request to land. Assuming they were told "no" at that point, how long did it take them to finally get permission to land and how does that compare to how much time they'd ordinarily have at that "normal" point? I guess this is a big deal given that it made the news, but it seems like a lot of information is missing, especially for the layman. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 3:29:47 AM EDT
[#2]
Do we have foamers like the railroad guys have? The reason I ask is that this is from LiveATC.net and the press picked it up.
I figure we'll hear about it in the next ATC enforcement action report if there was any violation. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 4:17:56 AM EDT
[#3]
How much fuel was onboard when they landed? PIC is going to get his pecker in a wringer no matter what about the TFR the question is whether he was really low on fuel or being a jerk and declaring so he didn't have to wait.
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Posted: 7/29/2015 4:50:06 AM EDT
[#4]
Notam's about the TFR Should have been picked up in the dispatch release and WX package by the dispatcher and Captain. Fail 2 was not acting when it was apperant they would not land with min reserve fuel. Fail 3 was not declaring emergancy sooner when they were that deep in their reserves.
My guess Capt will take large percentage of blame with FO and dispatcher taking some. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 8:05:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Don't forget the caveat in every airshow performance NOTAM: That scheduled PT 121/135 airline operations will not be disrupted, period. My guess is that the contract FAA tower guys at Fargo is in hot water for not reading the NOTAM himself, his comment that the pilots company has known about it for months makes me wonder if he really knows how the system really works. The military flight demonstration teams have procedures to deal with this situation as part of their SOP's.
FAR 91.3 is all the pilot has to stand behind, that's why he declared an emergency so he's a free man. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 8:33:07 AM EDT
[#6]
Oh he gonna get it! I can't imagine the fallout if he had run out of gas and cratered the airplane.
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Posted: 7/29/2015 8:52:32 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much fuel was onboard when they landed? PIC is going to get his pecker in a wringer no matter what about the TFR the question is whether he was really low on fuel or being a jerk and declaring so he didn't have to wait. One article said the pilot reported to tower that he had 3 minutes of fuel. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 8:55:08 AM EDT
[#8]
I witnessed this unfold firsthand. I was watching the practice and listening to the radio.
I laughed at the pilot. He was absolutely trying to save face for not checking the TFRs beforehand and just pressuring the tower to get in because he didn't want to wait. After the calls were made, he still waited about 30 min before touching down He was told they had a window, but they were well past their scheduled arrival. He was told the blue angels are not going to stop their practice for him and he should divert. Another United flight boarded for departure and I watched them sit on the taxiway for about an hour because they thought they'd get in the air too. They eventually returned to the ramp when this jack hole landed because they were blocking the intersection to the gates. They sat for another 20 min before being cleared to taxi for takeoff. 1. Pilot didn't check for TFRs 2. Threatened, but never actually declared. Had to "recalculate" when he was asked if he wanted to declare. 3. Plot was the chief safety officer or some shit for Allegiant 4. Landed safely about 30m after the exchange |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 9:19:26 AM EDT
[#9]
The NOTAM should have been on the paperwork.
both pilots should have read the NOTAM the Capt should not have accepted the flight if it did not have an alternate and delay fuel. the dispatcher should have been paying attention the dispatcher should have designated at alternate in case they missed the window. the dispatcher should have put delay fuel on the jet in case the timing did not work out. they should have diverted when they got to their divert fuel. depending on what was or was not on the flight plan, some people are going to get some time off. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 9:37:42 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I witnessed this unfold firsthand. I was watching the practice and listening to the radio. I laughed at the pilot. He was absolutely trying to save face for not checking the TFRs beforehand and just pressuring the tower to get in because he didn't want to wait. After the calls were made, he still waited about 30 min before touching down He was told they had a window, but they were well past their scheduled arrival. He was told the blue angels are not going to stop their practice for him and he should divert. Another United flight boarded for departure and I watched them sit on the taxiway for about an hour because they thought they'd get in the air too. They eventually returned to the ramp when this jack hole landed because they were blocking the intersection to the gates. They sat for another 20 min before being cleared to taxi for takeoff. 1. Pilot didn't check for TFRs 2. Threatened, but never actually declared. Had to "recalculate" when he was asked if he wanted to declare. 3. Plot was the chief safety officer or some shit for Allegiant 4. Landed safely about 30m after the exchange  |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 10:29:30 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I've been reading the thread about Allegiant over on the APC forums. Sounds like it was BOTH the VP of Flight Ops and Dir of Safety that were the crew. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I witnessed this unfold firsthand. I was watching the practice and listening to the radio. I laughed at the pilot. He was absolutely trying to save face for not checking the TFRs beforehand and just pressuring the tower to get in because he didn't want to wait. After the calls were made, he still waited about 30 min before touching down He was told they had a window, but they were well past their scheduled arrival. He was told the blue angels are not going to stop their practice for him and he should divert. Another United flight boarded for departure and I watched them sit on the taxiway for about an hour because they thought they'd get in the air too. They eventually returned to the ramp when this jack hole landed because they were blocking the intersection to the gates. They sat for another 20 min before being cleared to taxi for takeoff. 1. Pilot didn't check for TFRs 2. Threatened, but never actually declared. Had to "recalculate" when he was asked if he wanted to declare. 3. Plot was the chief safety officer or some shit for Allegiant 4. Landed safely about 30m after the exchange Why is that not surprising. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 10:39:44 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't forget the caveat in every airshow performance NOTAM: That scheduled PT 121/135 airline operations will not be disrupted, period. My guess is that the contract FAA tower guys at Fargo is in hot water for not reading the NOTAM himself, his comment that the pilots company has known about it for months makes me wonder if he really knows how the system really works. The military flight demonstration teams have procedures to deal with this situation as part of their SOP's. FAR 91.3 is all the pilot has to stand behind, that's why he declared an emergency so he's a free man. He didn't declare an emergency. My understanding is he told the tower he would have to declare an emergency if they didn't let him land. An important distinction. My understanding is the PIC left late knowing the airport would be closed when he got there. Then, he flew around until he was low on fuel and they had to let him land. He did not declare an emergency. The question nobody knows the answer to is how much fuel did he leave with and how much did he land with. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 11:04:30 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why is that not surprising. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I witnessed this unfold firsthand. I was watching the practice and listening to the radio. I laughed at the pilot. He was absolutely trying to save face for not checking the TFRs beforehand and just pressuring the tower to get in because he didn't want to wait. After the calls were made, he still waited about 30 min before touching down He was told they had a window, but they were well past their scheduled arrival. He was told the blue angels are not going to stop their practice for him and he should divert. Another United flight boarded for departure and I watched them sit on the taxiway for about an hour because they thought they'd get in the air too. They eventually returned to the ramp when this jack hole landed because they were blocking the intersection to the gates. They sat for another 20 min before being cleared to taxi for takeoff. 1. Pilot didn't check for TFRs 2. Threatened, but never actually declared. Had to "recalculate" when he was asked if he wanted to declare. 3. Plot was the chief safety officer or some shit for Allegiant 4. Landed safely about 30m after the exchange Why is that not surprising. #justmanagementpilotthings |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 11:27:21 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The NOTAM should have been on the paperwork. both pilots should have read the NOTAM the Capt should not have accepted the flight if it did not have an alternate and delay fuel. the dispatcher should have been paying attention the dispatcher should have designated at alternate in case they missed the window. the dispatcher should have put delay fuel on the jet in case the timing did not work out. they should have diverted when they got to their divert fuel. depending on what was or was not on the flight plan, some people are going to get some time off. As a Dispatcher, I agree with this assessment entirely. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 7:17:22 PM EDT
[#15]
If they really landed with only 5 minutes of fuel left, the Captain will likely get time off.
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Posted: 7/29/2015 8:56:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If they really landed with only 5 minutes of fuel left, the Captain will likely get time off. No shit. Ironic that they were both management pilots. Is that like the airline equivalent of staff aviators? |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 10:00:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No shit. Ironic that they were both management pilots. Is that like the airline equivalent of staff aviators? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If they really landed with only 5 minutes of fuel left, the Captain will likely get time off. No shit. Ironic that they were both management pilots. Is that like the airline equivalent of staff aviators? Sounds like flying monkeys if story is true. It will be nice to hear the facts. How much gas did he really have upon landing, etc. I listened to lIveATC feed. He told them he was 3 min to Bingo. How much fuel is considered Bongo in a jet airliner? Anyway, it sounds like he waited 20 min and then some before actually landing so there may be more to the story. The media is usually so damned far off that the only thing you can take as maybe fact is that it was an Allegiant Jet. Lots of flying monkeys out there though. How many large jets landed at the wrong airports last year? 
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Posted: 7/29/2015 10:38:49 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No shit. Ironic that they were both management pilots. Is that like the airline equivalent of staff aviators? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If they really landed with only 5 minutes of fuel left, the Captain will likely get time off. No shit. Ironic that they were both management pilots. Is that like the airline equivalent of staff aviators? Yep, except worse. Not ironic, causal. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 11:31:53 PM EDT
[#19]
This how we say about this: That was a Vegas plane.
We make fun of the Vegas station. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 6:30:21 PM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:24:24 PM EDT
[#21]
So he wasn't min fuel or much less emergency fuel....he was being a tool because he screwed up. I hope the feds love him prison style.
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:25:57 PM EDT
[#22]
Additional detail:
Members of this same crew fired a captain for "decision making" not long ago. |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 1:32:49 AM EDT
[#23]
That's just odd.
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Posted: 7/31/2015 7:58:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Additional detail: Members of this same crew fired a captain for "decision making" not long ago. The VP of Ops was not well respected in his NWA days... |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 8:06:12 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So he wasn't min fuel or much less emergency fuel....he was being a tool because he screwed up. I hope the feds love him prison style. wow. Is there a link for that? |
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Posted: 7/31/2015 10:04:53 AM EDT
[#26]
Just above my last post, skipsan linked to it.
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Posted: 7/31/2015 2:25:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Hmm...
Lots of internal disputes going on between pilots and the airline. This would have been an awesome set-up to make management look like idiots. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 12:19:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't forget the caveat in every airshow performance NOTAM: That scheduled PT 121/135 airline operations will not be disrupted, period. My guess is that the contract FAA tower guys at Fargo is in hot water for not reading the NOTAM himself, his comment that the pilots company has known about it for months makes me wonder if he really knows how the system really works. The military flight demonstration teams have procedures to deal with this situation as part of their SOP's. FAR 91.3 is all the pilot has to stand behind, that's why he declared an emergency so he's a free man. Fargo isnt a contact tower. He had a time to come in, he left an hour late and missed that window. The blues went active and took control of the airspace, basically making it a hot MOA for all intents and purposes GFK is a few minutes away at flight level speeds, it looks like he chose to mis-represent his fuel state, rather than take the financial hit of diverting to GFK, which, also gets allegiant. His track on flight aware shows no holding of any kind. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 4:34:05 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fargo isnt a contact tower. He had a time to come in, he left an hour late and missed that window. The blues went active and took control of the airspace, basically making it a hot MOA for all intents and purposes GFK is a few minutes away at flight level speeds, it looks like he chose to mis-represent his fuel state, rather than take the financial hit of diverting to GFK, which, also gets allegiant. His track on flight aware shows no holding of any kind. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Don't forget the caveat in every airshow performance NOTAM: That scheduled PT 121/135 airline operations will not be disrupted, period. My guess is that the contract FAA tower guys at Fargo is in hot water for not reading the NOTAM himself, his comment that the pilots company has known about it for months makes me wonder if he really knows how the system really works. The military flight demonstration teams have procedures to deal with this situation as part of their SOP's. FAR 91.3 is all the pilot has to stand behind, that's why he declared an emergency so he's a free man. Fargo isnt a contact tower. He had a time to come in, he left an hour late and missed that window. The blues went active and took control of the airspace, basically making it a hot MOA for all intents and purposes GFK is a few minutes away at flight level speeds, it looks like he chose to mis-represent his fuel state, rather than take the financial hit of diverting to GFK, which, also gets allegiant. His track on flight aware shows no holding of any kind. Bottom line, the NOTAM exempts scheduled operations for being disrupted, it says nothing about being early or late, just that 121/135 will be accommodated. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 9:07:15 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bottom line, the NOTAM exempts scheduled operations for being disrupted, it says noting about being early or late, just that 121/135 will be accommodated. I believe this is fundamentally correct. At the end of the day, only TFRs close airspace. |
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Posted: 8/3/2015 11:07:59 PM EDT
[#31]
I've flown in an out of Kalispell when the Blue Angels were performing. Landed before they started, boarded the pax while they were performing and took off after the performance.
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Posted: 8/3/2015 11:09:37 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe this is fundamentally correct. At the end of the day, only TFRs close airspace. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Bottom line, the NOTAM exempts scheduled operations for being disrupted, it says noting about being early or late, just that 121/135 will be accommodated. I believe this is fundamentally correct. At the end of the day, only TFRs close airspace. Yup. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 9:30:46 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yup. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Bottom line, the NOTAM exempts scheduled operations for being disrupted, it says noting about being early or late, just that 121/135 will be accommodated. I believe this is fundamentally correct. At the end of the day, only TFRs close airspace. Yup. Regardless of the official rules, it seems that the pilot had no idea of a NOTAM and decided to declare almost on "bingo fuel" and having to possibly declare an emergency if they didn't let him land. That is much different from a planned 121 flight where he expects to be able to land because the rules make exceptions for 121 operations. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the situation. |
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Posted: 8/4/2015 10:54:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe this is fundamentally correct. At the end of the day, only TFRs close airspace. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Bottom line, the NOTAM exempts scheduled operations for being disrupted, it says noting about being early or late, just that 121/135 will be accommodated. I believe this is fundamentally correct. At the end of the day, only TFRs close airspace. I have never not seen a TFR closing the airspace when the Blue Angles or Thunderbirds do a show or practice. They are not going to stop what they are doing to let a 121/135 aircraft in. |
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Posted: 8/5/2015 12:17:00 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have never not seen a TFR closing the airspace when the Blue Angles or Thunderbirds do a show or practice. They are not going to stop what they are doing to let a 121/135 aircraft in. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Bottom line, the NOTAM exempts scheduled operations for being disrupted, it says noting about being early or late, just that 121/135 will be accommodated. I believe this is fundamentally correct. At the end of the day, only TFRs close airspace. I have never not seen a TFR closing the airspace when the Blue Angles or Thunderbirds do a show or practice. They are not going to stop what they are doing to let a 121/135 aircraft in. Especially one that departed an hour late and has a very fluid fuel state. I've seen TFR's for other airshows. TFR goes into effect , air boss "takes" the airpace,no one in our out, airshow ends, air boss cancels TFR and FAA resumes ops. |
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Posted: 8/5/2015 8:40:55 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Especially one that departed an hour late and has a very fluid fuel state. I've seen TFR's for other airshows. TFR goes into effect , air boss "takes" the airpace,no one in our out, airshow ends, air boss cancels TFR and FAA resumes ops. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Bottom line, the NOTAM exempts scheduled operations for being disrupted, it says noting about being early or late, just that 121/135 will be accommodated. I believe this is fundamentally correct. At the end of the day, only TFRs close airspace. I have never not seen a TFR closing the airspace when the Blue Angles or Thunderbirds do a show or practice. They are not going to stop what they are doing to let a 121/135 aircraft in. Especially one that departed an hour late and has a very fluid fuel state. I've seen TFR's for other airshows. TFR goes into effect , air boss "takes" the airpace,no one in our out, airshow ends, air boss cancels TFR and FAA resumes ops. In my forty years of flying (I started at age 16) and over ten years of being in the airshow business, it's been my experience that airshows are routinely interrupted for scheduled air carrier operations. This incident was a practice session, my friends who are former Blue Angles and Thunderbird pilots have told me that they have an SOP for just this kind of contingency. |
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Posted: 8/6/2015 7:56:38 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't forget the caveat in every airshow performance NOTAM: That scheduled PT 121/135 airline operations will not be disrupted, period. My guess is that the contract FAA tower guys at Fargo is in hot water for not reading the NOTAM himself, his comment that the pilots company has known about it for months makes me wonder if he really knows how the system really works. The military flight demonstration teams have procedures to deal with this situation as part of their SOP's. FAR 91.3 is all the pilot has to stand behind, that's why he declared an emergency so he's a free man. Weren't they something on the order of 2-3 hours late? |
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Posted: 8/6/2015 8:33:38 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Weren't they something on the order of 2-3 hours late? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Don't forget the caveat in every airshow performance NOTAM: That scheduled PT 121/135 airline operations will not be disrupted, period. My guess is that the contract FAA tower guys at Fargo is in hot water for not reading the NOTAM himself, his comment that the pilots company has known about it for months makes me wonder if he really knows how the system really works. The military flight demonstration teams have procedures to deal with this situation as part of their SOP's. FAR 91.3 is all the pilot has to stand behind, that's why he declared an emergency so he's a free man. Weren't they something on the order of 2-3 hours late? If they were late for flow, whose fault is that? Second, the Blues or Dunderbirds don't write my paycheck. If I'm legally dispatched to a destination, that's where I'm going, barring unforeseen or unsafe circumstances, and it's ATC's responsibility to coordinate that, not control it. ATC as an organization has lost its moral authority with how it treated and treats WN over other airlines. So, let's all play by the rules. Third, I'd like to read the transcript for what was actually said. |
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Posted: 8/6/2015 12:47:32 PM EDT
[#39]
The event and this thread has morphed into the "classic long dick contest".
We pilots are such a humble group. 
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Posted: 8/6/2015 12:48:25 PM EDT
[#40]
The internet is a great place to measure E penis size.
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Posted: 8/6/2015 5:49:55 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bottom line, the NOTAM exempts scheduled operations for being disrupted, it says nothing about being early or late, just that 121/135 will be accommodated. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Don't forget the caveat in every airshow performance NOTAM: That scheduled PT 121/135 airline operations will not be disrupted, period. My guess is that the contract FAA tower guys at Fargo is in hot water for not reading the NOTAM himself, his comment that the pilots company has known about it for months makes me wonder if he really knows how the system really works. The military flight demonstration teams have procedures to deal with this situation as part of their SOP's. FAR 91.3 is all the pilot has to stand behind, that's why he declared an emergency so he's a free man. Fargo isnt a contact tower. He had a time to come in, he left an hour late and missed that window. The blues went active and took control of the airspace, basically making it a hot MOA for all intents and purposes GFK is a few minutes away at flight level speeds, it looks like he chose to mis-represent his fuel state, rather than take the financial hit of diverting to GFK, which, also gets allegiant. His track on flight aware shows no holding of any kind. Bottom line, the NOTAM exempts scheduled operations for being disrupted, it says nothing about being early or late, just that 121/135 will be accommodated. With the blue angels practicing, its essentially a hot MOA. Would you expect to be allowed to fly into a hot MOA bc youre 121/135? The airshows have times built in between demonstrations to allow airline ops in and out, this wasn't an airshow, this was a practice, with no holes built in. They scheduled it to avoid disrupting airline ops. Allegiance was late, therefore they weren't on their regular schedule. Closed airspace is closed airspace. You can take off and fly all you want, but you aren't getting into closed airspace, unless you declare an emergency. I also like how you chose to ignore all the other valid points that clearly demonstrate your lack of knowledge about the airport, airspace, and the situation itself. So declaring a false emergency is now ok? That's the bottom line. |
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Posted: 8/6/2015 6:27:53 PM EDT
[#42]
What's the big deal anyways? Hell, my brother landed our C172 with half a gallon left in the tanks. NBD.
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Posted: 8/6/2015 9:19:49 PM EDT
[#43]
Heh. I listened to that convo live on the scanner while at the show.
They had plenty of fuel for a divert if the dumb fucks had not flown in a hold waiting for the controller to cave. The Blues pilots were even more amusing to listen to on the subject. |
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Posted: 8/6/2015 9:23:33 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much fuel was onboard when they landed? PIC is going to get his pecker in a wringer no matter what about the TFR the question is whether he was really low on fuel or being a jerk and declaring so he didn't have to wait. He had 40 to 45 minutes of fuel left when he started his dick measuring contest with the controller. More than enough to divert to Grand Forks. My father was also mentioning to me that an ambulance also met the plane at the terminal. But no med emergency was declared. |
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Posted: 8/6/2015 9:27:08 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He didn't declare an emergency. My understanding is he told the tower he would have to declare an emergency if they didn't let him land. An important distinction. My understanding is the PIC left late knowing the airport would be closed when he got there. Then, he flew around until he was low on fuel and they had to let him land. He did not declare an emergency. The question nobody knows the answer to is how much fuel did he leave with and how much did he land with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Don't forget the caveat in every airshow performance NOTAM: That scheduled PT 121/135 airline operations will not be disrupted, period. My guess is that the contract FAA tower guys at Fargo is in hot water for not reading the NOTAM himself, his comment that the pilots company has known about it for months makes me wonder if he really knows how the system really works. The military flight demonstration teams have procedures to deal with this situation as part of their SOP's. FAR 91.3 is all the pilot has to stand behind, that's why he declared an emergency so he's a free man. He didn't declare an emergency. My understanding is he told the tower he would have to declare an emergency if they didn't let him land. An important distinction. My understanding is the PIC left late knowing the airport would be closed when he got there. Then, he flew around until he was low on fuel and they had to let him land. He did not declare an emergency. The question nobody knows the answer to is how much fuel did he leave with and how much did he land with. Yep he said something to the effect of "we will have to see about that.". And then when asked if he was declaring a fuel emergency. He said they will recalculate. |
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Posted: 8/7/2015 8:26:47 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He had 40 to 45 minutes of fuel left when he started his dick measuring contest with the controller. More than enough to divert to Grand Forks. My father was also mentioning to me that an ambulance also met the plane at the terminal. But no med emergency was declared. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How much fuel was onboard when they landed? PIC is going to get his pecker in a wringer no matter what about the TFR the question is whether he was really low on fuel or being a jerk and declaring so he didn't have to wait. He had 40 to 45 minutes of fuel left when he started his dick measuring contest with the controller. More than enough to divert to Grand Forks. My father was also mentioning to me that an ambulance also met the plane at the terminal. But no med emergency was declared. The only suitable reason to divert 75 miles to Grand Forks that day with <45 minutes of gas available (20 minute flight?) is that Fargo was already closed because another airplane had crashed on the airport blocking the only usable runway. Never fly away for a usable airport when you are into your reserve fuel. Ambulances routinely meet airlines without medical emergencies being declared. That could have been for something as simple as a tissue sample transport. "Dick measuring contest" is not something I've seen in the AIM glossary of terms, could you please reference it for the rest of us? |
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Posted: 8/7/2015 2:55:01 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only suitable reason to divert 75 miles to Grand Forks that day with <45 minutes of gas available (20 minute flight?) is that Fargo was already closed because another airplane had crashed on the airport blocking the only usable runway. Never fly away for a usable airport when you are into your reserve fuel. Ambulances routinely meet airlines without medical emergencies being declared. That could have been for something as simple as a tissue sample transport. "Dick measuring contest" is not something I've seen in the AIM glossary of terms, could you please reference it for the rest of us? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How much fuel was onboard when they landed? PIC is going to get his pecker in a wringer no matter what about the TFR the question is whether he was really low on fuel or being a jerk and declaring so he didn't have to wait. He had 40 to 45 minutes of fuel left when he started his dick measuring contest with the controller. More than enough to divert to Grand Forks. My father was also mentioning to me that an ambulance also met the plane at the terminal. But no med emergency was declared. The only suitable reason to divert 75 miles to Grand Forks that day with <45 minutes of gas available (20 minute flight?) is that Fargo was already closed because another airplane had crashed on the airport blocking the only usable runway. Never fly away for a usable airport when you are into your reserve fuel. Ambulances routinely meet airlines without medical emergencies being declared. That could have been for something as simple as a tissue sample transport. "Dick measuring contest" is not something I've seen in the AIM glossary of terms, could you please reference it for the rest of us? Had you heard the conversation on the scanner. You would understand. They were both being jack asses to each other, the air crew more so than the tower. The PIC saying he had 3 minutes of fuel remaining to the controller and being proven to be bullshit makes one wonder (he had 45 to 50). The Blues conversation about it on HF was pretty good. "Don't pilots read TFRs?" They didn't say anything bad, but the quips on the radio were funny. And this was not the only interference during the show or the practice on those three days. There was an unscheduled FW medivac that wandered into the TFR with no notice along with a couple private planes (Medivac AC are usually given some priority as long as they give some reasonable notice of their intent ahead of time). And some pretty good convos between private pilots and the tower. One went something along the lines of a guy requesting a landing at KFAR, to which the tower replied the airport is closed untill... The PP got lippy, didn't want to wait for the opening. Tower suggested him to find an alternate airport. The PP replied I guess Ill have to land at Moorhead since I am not allowed there. The tower replied Moorhead is open and that they are outside of the block. PP said something to the effect of, Whatever.... I will land there than. The towers response was... You can land and take off there all you want, Just stay out of the block until operations resume. I was running two scanners, One was tuned to the tower and the other to the air boss Blues and HF/MIL bands. It was something most people never hear during shows. It is very enlightening to hear how much juggling has to be done. The Airboss controlled the field during the practice and show for scheduled times. The breaks were handed off to the tower, then the tower controlled the field for the break. During the show and practice the tower ran as normal as far as ATC goes, but had no control over the field and the TFR area. |
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Posted: 8/10/2015 8:25:43 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The blues went active and took control of the airspace, basically making it a hot MOA for all intents and purposes With the blue angels practicing, its essentially a hot MOA. Would you expect to be allowed to fly into a hot MOA bc youre 121/135? IIRC, According to the AIM, in order to fly through an MOA you are supposed to be "extra vigilant", but you don't have to call anybody to determine if it is active or not if VFR. IFR will be cleared or vectored. |
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Posted: 8/15/2015 10:16:41 AM EDT
[#49]
If the airspace is closed, then the airspace is closed.
Deal with it by holding until you get to divert fuel, then divert. This is not rocket science. I have diverted because the winds exceeding the recommended cross winds on a contaminated runway, not a limitation, but good judgement is prudent. If ATC says the airspace is closed and you have divert gas, then divert. If you don't have divert fuel, then you are minimum or emergency fuel with the divert. Declare it as such and make a decision. "approach, we can not divert fuel without going emergency fuel. How much longer until the airspace opens, we need to land in 15 minute in order to not declare minimum fuel or we need to divert now with emergency fuel" How much longer until we can get in" |
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Posted: 8/15/2015 2:36:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
IIRC, According to the AIM, in order to fly through an MOA you are supposed to be "extra vigilant", but you don't have to call anybody to determine if it is active or not if VFR. IFR will be cleared or vectored. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The blues went active and took control of the airspace, basically making it a hot MOA for all intents and purposes With the blue angels practicing, its essentially a hot MOA. Would you expect to be allowed to fly into a hot MOA bc youre 121/135? IIRC, According to the AIM, in order to fly through an MOA you are supposed to be "extra vigilant", but you don't have to call anybody to determine if it is active or not if VFR. IFR will be cleared or vectored. We've mixed different SUAs in this discussion. You are correct...if VFR, you can proceed through MOAs to your heart's content. If IFR, you will be vectored around if the MOA is hot. TFRs are no-go without specific authorization from both ATC and the airspace owner, though ATC is the point of service for the pilot, by and large. |
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