There are theories out there that the UFOs are actually demons.

Ok, so what happened in Genesis chapter 6???
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1 ¶  And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2  That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 ¶  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 ¶  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
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A little definition here.

Sons of God = Angels, only in this sense, they are demons

It seems like the demons (fallen angels) actually manifested themselves in the physical world and mingled with the seed of man.  Why would they do this?  They knew the prophecy of the coming Messiah:
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Genesis chapter 3:
14 ¶  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15  And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
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The above verse takes place when God is dealing out the curses because of man's sin and because of the deception of Satan.

So what were they trying to do by interbreeding with women?  They were possibly trying to mutate the DNA of men (through reproduction) so that the prophecy of the Messiah coming by man's seed could not come to pass.  The demons effectively created 'monsters' that could not carry the Messiah's blood line.

So God wiped them out with a flood.

How real are demons?  Very freaking real.  They put their hand in human history.

They are doing it right now too.  We cannot see them, but we see their influence in our world.

Satan is called:

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Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
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Satan is also not bound to this earth, as of yet.  He has free reign to and from where ever he pleases.  In the book of Job, it says:
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Job 1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.------------------------------

Satan goes before God regularly and accuses the saints.  He goes to and fro on the earth......  But in Revelation, halfway through the trib, Satan will be kicked out of heaven and restrained to the earth
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Revelation 12:7  And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


Re 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
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I believe, during this time, Satan will come down and decieve the whole earth into thinking UFOs actually are intelligent life, we all evolved, and there is no God

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2 Thess 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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People will believe this and will willingly/ignorantly worship Satan as higher forms of life and also accept them.  They will put a ban on all religion worldwide because in their minds there will be no place for religion.  They will view religion as a hinderence and the cause of all of earth's problems.  They will need to purge themselves of it and will institute a new system of trade (mark of the beast for everyone) and will turn everyone against those who practice any type of religion.

Anyway, that is a theory that is out there and I am looking closely at it.  It seems to fit very well with how Satan will decieve everyone here on earth after the rapture....

Here are some quotes from different people on this subject:


"But the UFO phenomenon simply does not behave like extraterrestrial visitors. It actually molds itself in order to fit a given culture."
- John Ankerberg, The Facts on UFOs and Other Supernatural Phenomena, p. 10

"Human beings are under the control of a strange force that bends them in absurd ways, forcing them to play a role in a bizarre game of deception."
- Dr. Jacques Vallee, Messengers of Deception, p. 20

"We are dealing with a multidimensional paraphysical phenomenon which is largely indigenous to planet earth."
- Brad Steiger, [cited in] Blue Book Files Released in Canadian UFO Report, Vol. 4, No. 4, 1977, p. 20

"We are part of a symbiotic relationship with something which disguises itself as an extra-terrestrial invasion so as not to alarm us."
-Terrence McKenna [from a lecture]

"One theory which can no longer be taken very seriously is that UFOs are interstellar spaceships."
- Arthur C. Clarke, New York Times Book Review, 07/27/75

"There seems to be no evidence yet that any of these craft or beings originate from outer space."
-Gordon Creighton, Official 1992 Flying Saucer Review Policy Statement

"A large part of the available UFO literature is closely linked with mysticism and the metaphysical. It deals with subjects like mental telepathy, automatic writing and invisible entities as well as phenomena like poltergeist [ghost] manifestation and 'possession.' Many of the UFO reports now being published in the popular press recount alleged incidents that are strikingly similar to demonic possession and psychic phenomena."
- Lynn E. Catoe, UFOs and Related Subjects: USGPO, 1969; prepared under AFOSR Project Order 67-0002 and 68-0003

"UFO behaviour is more akin to magic than to physics as we know it... the modern UFOnauts and the demons of past days are probably identical."
-Dr. Pierre Guerin, FSR Vol. 25, No. 1, p. 13-14

"The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon..."
- John A. Keel, UFOs: Operation Trojan Horse, p. 299

"A working knowledge of occult science...is indispensable to UFO investigation."
-Trevor James, FSR Vol. 8, No. 1, p.10

"Studies of flying saucer cults repeatedly show that they are part of a larger occult social world."
-Stupple & McNeece, 1979 MUFON UFO Symposium Proceedings, p. 49

"The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscient of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks."
- Dr. Jacques Vallee, Confrontations, p. 13

"The symbolic display seen by the abductees is identical to the type of initiation ritual or astral voyage that is imbedded in the [occult] traditions of every culture...the structure of abduction stories is identical to that of occult initiation rituals...the UFO beings of today belong to the same class of manifestation as the [occult] entities that were described in centuries past."
-Dr. Jacques Vallee citing the extensive research of Bertrand Meheust [Science-Fiction et Soucoupes Volantes (Paris, 1978); Soucoupes Volantes et Folklore (Paris, 1985)], in Confrontations, p. 146, 159-161

"[The occultist] is brought into intelligent communication with the spirits of the air, and can receive any knowledge which they possess, or any false impression they choose to impart...the demons seem permitted to do various wonders at their request."
- G.H. Pember, Earth's Earliest Ages and Their Connection with Modern Spiritualism and Theosophy (1876), p. 254

"These entities are clever enough to make Strieber think they care about him. Yet his torment by them never ceases. Whatever his relationship to the entities, and he increasingly concludes that their involvement with him is something 'good,' he also remains terrified of them and uncertain as to what they are."
- John Ankerberg, The Facts on UFOs and Other Supernatural Phenomena, p. 21

"I became entirely given over to extreme dread. The fear was so powerful that it seemed to make my personality completely evaporate... 'Whitley' ceased to exist. What was left was a body and a state of raw fear so great that it swept about me like a thick, suffocating curtain, turning paralysis into a condition that seemed close to death...I died and a wild animal appeared in my place."
- Whitley Strieber, Communion, p. 25-26

"Increasingly I felt as if I were entering a struggle that might even be more than life and death. It might be a struggle for my soul, my essence, or whatever part of me might have reference to the eternal. There are worse things than death, I suspected... so far the word demon had never been spoken among the scientists and doctors who were working with me...Alone at night I worried about the legendary cunning of demons ...At the very least I was going stark, raving mad."
- Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 44-45

"I wondered if I might not be in the grip of demons, if they were not making me suffer for their own purposes, or simply for their enjoyment."
- Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 172

"I felt an absolutely indescribable sense of menace. It was hell on earth to be there [in the presence of the entities], and yet I couldn't move, couldn't cry out, couldn't get away. I'd lay as still as death, suffering inner agonies. Whatever was there seemed so monstrously ugly, so filthy and dark and sinister. Of course they were demons. They had to be. And they were here and I couldn't get away."
- Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 181

"Why were my visitors so secretive, hiding themselves behind my consciousness. I could only conclude that they were using me and did not want me to know why...What if they were dangerous? Then I was terribly dangerous because I was playing a role in acclimatizing people to them."
- Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 96

Quoted: Well, if you've identified them as demons I guess technically they're not UFOs anyway.

I cannot positively ID them.  If they did happen to show themselves to me, I would see if a bullet would stop them.  If the crash in Roswell is true, then they can die.  I dont think they will show to me, however, because I am a child of God.  I dont think they would deal with me like that.  Job, however, was physically cursed by satan himself.  And his posessions were taken from him and his children died, all by satan.  Hmmmmm.

I do not advocate this website nor its beliefs.  I am merely linking something else that I never considered:

www.bibleprobe.com/roswell.htm

Do you suppose that Satan has managed to clone animal parts (mysterious cattle mutilations & abductions) to create the small grey demon possessed creature (aliens) hybrids that were reported to have been found dead at Roswell?
Demons are corrupted spirits, free to roam.  This description makes them seem like hapless, tormented beings.  But, in reality they are taking orders from their superior--which make them slaves.

Literally hundreds of people claim they were abducted.  Consistently abducted witnesses report that the little gray aliens behave more like drones or androids than leaders.  Their leaders are often described as reptilian creatures who literally stay behind the scenes.  There are also tall nordic-looking men and women behind the scenes who may just be human clones who have been possessed.  Only the little grey aliens (creatures) do the dirty work of kidnapping, and collecting genetic and tissue samples.  They may have collected sperm and eggs which were genetically altered to allow hybrid development.

I think you're reading into it a wee bit too much.

I think they are just normal objects in the sky that people just cant ID.

Quoted: I think you're reading into it a wee bit too much.

Well, in the tribulation, satan will need to convince the whole world that God doesnt exist and also convince the world that they need a one world government with a standard system of trade (mark of the beast).  I cannot think of anything that would bring everyone on board, other than the alien theory; especially people in America.  Americans are known for going against what the world says, especially with some outside government telling them what to do.

Bring on an alien invasion, I think things would change pretty quickly in all countries.  Keep in mind, all of this needs to take place within the 7 year tribulation.  This would be pretty convincing in my book.

I would not put this past satan to attempt.

Plus the fact that you cannot argue with the Biblical account of demons medling with human history.  They are more real than most people want to admit.

That is why the Bible says:
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Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
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Could you tell me WHERE in the Bible does Rapture appear?

Quoted: Could you tell me WHERE in the Bible does Rapture appear?

This was discussed on this forum just recently.

The word 'rapture' does not appear in the Bible.  The term is actually a latin word.

Basically, if you wish to distinguish between the event of pre-trib rapture and post-trib ressurrection, you need to study and define "The Day of the Lord."  Is this an actualy 'day' or a 'period of time'.  If it is an actual day, then you will believe in post-trib resurrection.  If you believe it is actually a period of time, then you will believe in pre-trib rapture.

I have studied it for myself and have concluded that "The Day of the Lord" is a period of time that takes place in what people call "the tribulation".  So it is a period of time over 7 years.  Therefore, I also concluded that the post-trib ressurrection and pre-trib rapture are 2 different events.

I see. So, there is no Rapture in the Bible, just something you use to describe an event?

Quoted: I see. So, there is no Rapture in the Bible, just something you use to describe an event?

Yes.  Basically, it is a term to describe the saints meeting the Lord in the air, first the dead, then the living.

I may catch some flak from both sides here, but....

Because of something I saw out in the middle of the Frank Church Wilderness (Idaho), I got on a kick back in the early 90's where I did a LOT of research into this.  As a result of that, and an ongoing semi-interest in this subject, I think both the "religious" people, and the "extraterrestrial" people are erroneously interpreting the same phenonmenon.  Basically, both the religious outlook on it, and the "scientific" or "science-fiction" outlook on it are products of the culture observing the phenomenon.

That said, I think the religious side of the house is closer to being on the mark.

Anybody who cares to do a little bit of honest research can see that there IS something to all this.  It's just beyond chance that EVERY culture in the history of the world would described the things that we call "UFO's" and "aliens" in this culture in this day and age.  What I'm talking about is way beyond wierd lights in the sky that don't act like "normal" aircraft (which is what I saw).  What I'm talking about is the same sort of thing that is quoted from the Bible in the first post here.   There are stories like this in EVERY culture/religion.   And all those stories, if viewed from a "scientific" perspective, seem to be describing the same thing that we think of today as a "close encounter with aliens".  They've been called Angels, demons, fairies, elves, etc etc etc.  But I think they're all the same things.

The Fatima Miracle is very well documented, very meticulously described in Catholic Church records, and if you read the official descriptions of the "event" with the thought of U.F.O. in your mind, it sounds like something right out of Close Encounters of the Third Kind!

The reason I say the religious outlook on it seems to be more in line with the reality of the situation, is because it seems there is a VERY distict "good" and "evil" side to all these events.  People who claim to have been "abducted by the Greys", would most definitely seem to have been messed with by "demons".  On the other hand, there are a few "close encounters" with "aliens" described as "Nordic-looking humanoids", and the whole experience seems to be a much closer fit to the visits by "Angels" described in the Bible.

Anyway, I don't claim to know all the answers, but I think both a verbatum interpretation of the Bible (or anything else), and the whole "aliens from outerspace" thing are simple-minded interpretations of the exact same thing, based on human culture.

FWIW, I think both sides are part right and part wrong.  

Here's a hint:  Read some of Albert Einstein's writings and think about this:  Tomorrow is yesterday; here is there; there IS an absolute difference between Good and Evil that transcends all cultures, places, and times, just as there is a difference between light and darkness....  It really is that simple, and that complex.

Jeez... I'm leaving.  My brain hurts now.  

Quoted: I may catch some flak from both sides here, but.... Because of something I saw out in the middle of the Frank Church Wilderness (Idaho), I got on a kick back in the early 90's where I did a LOT of research into this.  As a result of that, and an ongoing semi-interest in this subject, I think both the "religious" people, and the "extraterrestrial" people are erroneously interpreting the same phenonmenon.  Basically, both the religious outlook on it, and the "scientific" or "science-fiction" outlook on it are products of the culture observing the phenomenon. That said, I think the religious side of the house is closer to being on the mark. Anybody who cares to do a little bit of honest research can see that there IS something to all this.  It's just beyond chance that EVERY culture in the history of the world would described the things that we call "UFO's" and "aliens" in this culture in this day and age.  What I'm talking about is way beyond wierd lights in the sky that don't act like "normal" aircraft (which is what I saw).  What I'm talking about is the same sort of thing that is quoted from the Bible in the first post here.   There are stories like this in EVERY culture/religion.   And all those stories, if viewed from a "scientific" perspective, seem to be describing the same thing that we think of today as a "close encounter with aliens".  They've been called Angels, demons, fairies, elves, etc etc etc.  But I think they're all the same things. The Fatima Miracle is very well documented, very meticulously described in Catholic Church records, and if you read the official descriptions of the "event" with the thought of U.F.O. in your mind, it sounds like something right out of Close Encounters of the Third Kind! The reason I say the religious outlook on it seems to be more in line with the reality of the situation, is because it seems there is a VERY distict "good" and "evil" side to all these events.  People who claim to have been "abducted by the Greys", would most definitely seem to have been messed with by "demons".  On the other hand, there are a few "close encounters" with "aliens" described as "Nordic-looking humanoids", and the whole experience seems to be a much closer fit to the visits by "Angels" described in the Bible. Anyway, I don't claim to know all the answers, but I think both a verbatum interpretation of the Bible (or anything else), and the whole "aliens from outerspace" thing are simple-minded interpretations of the exact same thing, based on human culture. FWIW, I think both sides are part right and part wrong.   Here's a hint:  Read some of Albert Einstein's writings and think about this:  Tomorrow is yesterday; here is there; there IS an absolute difference between Good and Evil that transcends all cultures, places, and times, just as there is a difference between light and darkness....  It really is that simple, and that complex. Jeez... I'm leaving.  My brain hurts now.

Well, I think this quote sums it up pretty good; especially the last part....


"The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscient of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks."
- Dr. Jacques Vallee, Confrontations, p. 13

If I'm remembering correctly, Jaques Vallee is one author that really seemed to take a truly open minded approach to all this.  First he didn't assume anything did or didn't happen, and then he didn't appraoch it from any preconceived notion about what it was if it appeared that something did happen.  Didn't automatically assume it was "aliens" or "spaceships" or anything else.

Something else I just wanted to add in relation to my last post.  Pull out your Bible's and read about "Ezekiel's Wheel", then do some research on the Fatima Miracle.  Both sound like a big old "UFO" to me!

Also, think about all the references in the Bible (and other religious texts) to "shining clouds" etc going up into, or coming down from the sky.

I even remember reading about one encounter with "tall blond aliens" that took place the U.S. in recent years where the witness was scared sh*tless and lying on the ground almost paralyzed with fear.  Then the glowing blond "alien" kept his distance, and gently told the witness to stand up, as he was only a servant and not someone to be feared or worshipped.  The investigator writing up the encounter, as well as the witness, approached the event from a UFO/alien standpoint, but the whole thing struck me as being exactly like a Biblical encounter with an Angel.

Personally, while I accept the possibility of the existence of intelligent life forms elsewhere in the cosmos, I don’t think that they have been involved in the evolution of humanity on this planet, but the are those who think otherwise.  The Mormon Church, for example, teaches that God and his wives are extraterrestrials from the planet Kolob.  The television series Battlestar Galactica is basically Mormon theology written for televised dramatization by a Mormon.  The Cylons would be demons, but there would be angels and deities as well, and all, to include the humans, are extraterrestrials looking for a home.

Zecharia Sitchin believes that the folks the Sumerians called the Annunaki, and who were later called the Nephilim in the book of Genisis, were extraterrestrials from the planet Nibiru who came to Earth and genetically engineered humanity to be their servants.  I understand that Zecharia Sitchin believes they may be returning sometime in the future.

Laurence Gardner in his book Genisis of the Grail Kings also argues for an intelligent extraterrestrial influence into human evolution.  Gardner, like Sitchin, believes the Annunaki were extraterrestrials who created humanity in their own image as servants, but, because of disagreement within the Annunaki community, the work force got a bit out of hand.  The Annunaki Enlil was all for keeping the human workers in their place, but his brother Enki felt that humanity deserved better.  In furtherance of this goal of developmentally improving humanity, Enki and his sister Lilith shared their DNA with humanity.  Enki did this by sharing his DNA (in the usual way guys share their DNA) with Eve who told her human spouse Adam that she had, “got a man from the Lord” (Lord Enki) and that his name would be Cain.  Cain was thus descended from Enki, rather than Adam, and this special status made him Lord and ruler over the descendants of Abel who were, comparatively, “lower than dirt”.  Lilith’s contribution to the advancement of the bloodline of Cain was her menstrual blood which was consumed by the Kingly line of Cain and contributed to their enlightenment.

Enlil took a dim view of these developments and created all sorts of impediments to the advancement of humanity lest they become as the Annunaki.  The followers of Enlil specifically condemned the consumption of blood and their kosher ritual required that an animal be drained of blood before consumption.  Contrary to the accounts of Genesis, the bloodline of Cain continued through Cain to Seth, Enoch, Noah, the Kings of Sumer and Mesopotamia, the early Pharoahs of Egypt, Moses, David, Jesus, the Merovingians, the Stewarts, and still exists to this day though an alternative to the consumption of menstrual blood has been developed.  While the Jews worshiped Enlil, the enlightened worshiped Enki.

For my part, I don’t think a space ship descended onto the plains of Mesopotamia with folks named Enlil, Enki, Lilith, Luluwa and such on board ready to genetically engineer a human workforce.  I do not think the Annunaki/Nephilum were anything more than culturally advanced humans who descended onto the Mesopotamian plains from the mountains to the east.  Racially, they may have looked a bet different than the indigenous Mesopotamians and thus they were described as ‘reptilian’ in appearance though, as interbreeding would seem to indicate, they were no more ‘reptilian’ than ‘Buffalo Soldiers’ were buffalo.

If one reads the The Book of Enoch one finds that the knowledge taught by the Nephilum to humanity is not what one might consider ‘angelic’ knowledge or even advanced knowledge today.  The Nephilum seemed content to teach humanity about agriculture, metallurgy, astrology, cosmetology, pharmacology and other assorted arts and sciences that might be useful to people, but not angels.  They aren’t even advanced enough to construct firearms or particle beam weapons.

This leads me to believe the Nepilum were simply a relatively advanced race of humans who arrived in Mesopotamia from the east and established a ruling dynasty over the indigenous inhabitants of the land.  These invaders preached their superiority as descendants of the gods with the divine right to rule as Messiahs over lesser mortals.  Of course to others, they were the demonic spawn of Satan.  I think they were just people.

Well, that story that you told based on mormon theology I also take with a grain of salt.  I come from a standpoint of purely a Biblical view....

While I also understand that you dont agree with me on the theory that sons of God (demons) had meddled with the seed of man, you also have to take into consideration the cannonized book of Jude which says:
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6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
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And also cannonized 2Peter chapter 2:
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4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
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These verses, IMO, are describing the demons who dwelled with men in the days of Noah and brought forth the Nephilim.  The Nephilim were a monsterous breed, and not demons, but kind of an inbetween species.  They were probably extremely physically strong and intelligent.

You see, the demons are not suffering punishment at the moment: only a select few.  The above verses that I just quoted in this reply are the only demons held in punnishment at the moment, but most are free to roam, as the description of Job's situation is described.  Also, if you look at the NT and read of demon possessed men, this is further proof that most demons are not in bondage waiting for punnishment.  Only those who sinned and dwelled with men in Noah's day.

Now, these demons will be loosened during the tribulation to judge men:
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9:1 ¶  And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2  And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3  And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5  And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6  And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7  And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8  And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9  And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10  And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11  And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
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There are also demons who are bound at the river Euphrates.
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9:14  Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15  And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
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ETA: your quoting of the book of Enoch, while insightful, the book itself is not considered Cannon by many.  There are many reasons for determining Cannonicity, such as: are places described acurrately, does the book describe real places or immaginary ones, has this book been accepted by the Jewish people (keepers of the OT law and ordained by God to keep the OT scriptures), does this book give glory to God or to someone other than God, contradicts cannonized scripture, is outright blasphemous, ect....

The reason why the book is not cannonized is because it has failed at one or more of the checks and balances of cannonicity.

It is my opinion that the decision of what is canonical and what is not is purely a human one somewhat akin to a political party deciding what positions to endorse in its platform.  Within Judaism and Christianity there are books mentioned in canonical books of their scripture which, for some human reason, are not today considered canonical.

“And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.”  Joshua 10:13

“(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)” II Samuel 1:18

Martin Luther did not consider the book of James to be canonical.  The Mormons, of course, have the entire Book of Mormon along with their Doctrine and Covenants and the Books of Abraham and Moses which they consider canon but others don’t.  Ultimately, its just a matter of opinion as to what is canonical and what isn’t.  This is one reason I do not find any particular canon of scripture any more authoritative than any other though all have some gems of wisdom contained within their texts.

Quoted: I think they are just normal objects in the sky that people just cant ID.

Government Conspiracy!!!

Quoted: It is my opinion that the decision of what is canonical and what is not is purely a human one somewhat akin to a political party deciding what positions to endorse in its platform.  Within Judaism and Christianity there are books mentioned in canonical books of their scripture which, for some human reason, are not today considered canonical. “And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.”  Joshua 10:13 “(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)” II Samuel 1:18 Martin Luther did not consider the book of James to be canonical.  The Mormons, of course, have the entire Book of Mormon along with their Doctrine and Covenants and the Books of Abraham and Moses which they consider canon but others don’t.  Ultimately, its just a matter of opinion as to what is canonical and what isn’t.  This is one reason I do not find any particular canon of scripture any more authoritative than any other though all have some gems of wisdom contained within their texts.

Like I said, there are checks and balances in determining cannonicity.

Are UFOs actually demons?

Yes.

hmm... I wouldn't call passenger jets demons...

Like I said, there are checks and balances in determining cannonicity.

Of course it would appear that the 'checks and balances' that are chosen for application and the manner in which those 'checks and balances' are applied are as subjective as the resulting canon of scripture any individual or demonination chooses to accept.

Quoted: Like I said, there are checks and balances in determining cannonicity.

That is a load of garbage.  There is no standard proces for determining canonicity.   There is no need for one as Christians view the OT and NT as the only revealed word of God and there are not any new books written by God coming along.

The early Church fathers like Polycarp and Papias, viewed works we now consider non-canonical to be the word of God.  The books of Hermas, Barnabas, Didache, and 1 and 2 Clement were all regarded as inspired by them.   They were followers of the disciples and thus had a direct link to Jesus.   Why is their judgement less worthy than men a hundred years later who had teachers even farther removed from Jesus?

The reason is that Christian dogma solidified in the time of the early Church fathers and wasn't firmly set until the time of  the apologists and the thoelogians.     After dogma was settled, those documents that no longer fit the bill fell out of favor.  

To imply that there is was some sort of system (with checks and balances) to determining canonicity is ahistorical at best.  At worst, its simply dishonest.

Even into the 7th and 8th centuries, there were still people adding and subtracting from canon.  

Its a fascinating and complex subject that can hardly be summed up as you would have it.

Determining canonicity of the Bible.  All are PDF format so save em to your PC if you want to.  These are all written by Norman Geisler.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

done, looking them over now

eta:

That is an article from the standpoint of an apologist, which is entirely different from historical analysis.  Its adequate for defending the view that the current canon is correct.  It does not outline the process that was originally used to determine canonicity.

The problem with that argument is its a justification after the fact.   The historical record shows how certain books fell out of favor  and how others gained favor (Revelations is the most striking example of the latter)

The same argument can be used by Jews, Protestants, Christians, and Mormons (who all share some books, but disagree in small or large parts with others) to justify why their particular view is correct.

Tradition became canon through an organic process over several centuries,  not in the logical manner he outlines.  You can defend the actions by those early Church fathers with that type of information, but your making a leap to assume they used the same methods to determine what was the Word as opposed to just words.

Quoted: Determining canonicity of the Bible.  All are PDF format so save em to your PC if you want to.  These are all written by Norman Geisler. Part 1 Part 2 Part 3

Ummm, not very conclusive.  In fact, Geisler's reasoning seems a bit circular.  It seems he could be summed up as basically saying that the things his particular denomination agrees are canon are canon because his denomination agrees they are canon.

Nothing in his assessment would refute the Mormon claims that their scriptures are canon or any other denomination's claims as to the canonicity of their scriptures as each denomination agrees within the confines of that denomination as to the canonicity of that denomination's scriptures and the prophetic nature of their 'discovery'.

Oh, by the way, I've read of at least one self identified Christian who claims the book of Revelation should not be canon.

Quoted: Oh, by the way, I've read of at least one self identified Christian who claims the book of Revelation should not be canon.

Martin Luther had reservations about Revelations, so thats not surprising.

Quoted: Quoted: Determining canonicity of the Bible.  All are PDF format so save em to your PC if you want to.  These are all written by Norman Geisler. Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 Ummm, not very conclusive.  In fact, Geisler's reasoning seems a bit circular.  It seems he could be summed up as basically saying that the things his particular denomination agrees are canon are canon because his denomination agrees they are canon. Nothing in his assessment would refute the Mormon claims that their scriptures are canon or any other denomination's claims as to the canonicity of their scriptures as each denomination agrees within the confines of that denomination as to the canonicity of that denomination's scriptures and the prophetic nature of their 'discovery'.

After that comment, I really do not think you read the PDFs.  I have no idea how you have concluded this.

Basically, what Geisler says are ways of determining canonicity and preventing false doctrines (ie mormon texts, does Revelation fit in the cannon, ect...):

[1] Was the book written by a prophet of God?
[2] Was the writer confirmed by acts of God?
[3] Does the message tell the truth about God?
[4] Did it come with the power of God?
[5] Was it accepted by the people of God?

"The five characteristics must at least be implicitly present, though some of them are more dominant than others."

The details of the numbered characteristics are listed in the PDFs.

^
l
l

Oh man, mark of the beast post # ......

Quoted: Basically, what Geisler says are ways of determining canonicity and preventing false doctrines (ie mormon texts, does Revelation fit in the cannon, ect...): [1] Was the book written by a prophet of God? [2] Was the writer confirmed by acts of God? [3] Does the message tell the truth about God? [4] Did it come with the power of God? [5] Was it accepted by the people of God?

Well I would invite you to ask any of the Mormons in this forum if the unique scriptures they hold as canon violate any of Geisler's five points.  I suspect they would be able to defend their canon by those five points just as well as any other denomination would be able to defend their differing canon by those same five points.  Geisler's methodology of identifying canon is so subjective as to be worthless.  Everybody's subjective identification of canon can be established using Geisler's methodology.

Call me nuts if you will but I have seen ufo's twice. Once over the middle of the city I live in. This city has a very large naval airwing. So about 100 people and myself are staring at this thing when two A4 come screaming over and pull into a vertical climb. They never had a chance of catching it. This was in broad daylight. The A4's scared us more than the ufo.

Quoted: Call me nuts if you will but I have seen ufo's twice. Once over the middle of the city I live in. This city has a very large naval airwing. So about 100 people and myself are staring at this thing when two A4 come screaming over and pull into a vertical climb. They never had a chance of catching it. This was in broad daylight. The A4's scared us more than the ufo.

The thing is, I have been a skeptic for all of my life that aliens exist.  Actually, I still do not believe there is any intelligent life at all besides humans.

I believe God created man and man is the center of God's creation.  The Bible does not support the notion that intelligent life exists other than for earth.  God Himself came down from heaven, became a man, and died for humanity to save us and give us the opportunity to live with Him forever.  I dont know about you, but it sounds to me like God is not focused on anyone else.

Like I was saying, I have been a skeptic and actually mocked those who said they saw UFOs or aliens.  But recently, I have read about the deomon theory and am considering the widespread reports of UFOs and similar abduction stories.

Again, not sure if the aliens are actually demons or, like a site I linked said, cloned/animated "things" controlled by the demons.  The Bible gives us a description of what angels look like (all demons are: fallen angels.  I doubt their appearance changed from just sinning, but you never know).  Nothing in the Bible describes anything like the "greys" that are popular, so some are saying they are probably clones/animated things that are controlled by demons, but you never know.

I've never believed in aliens or ET's, but there is quite obviously something here causing the UFO sightings. I believe it to be demonic because the Bible says that every eye will see Jesus returning riding on the clouds of Heaven, and that nations will attack Him. Without some type of deception, there's no way nations would attack. Something has to have been done just prior to His return making everyone fear ET.

BTW--I also believe that satan and the demons are here to torment and deceive us every day, and that satan regularly goes to God and points out our sins. Normally satan isn't given too much power over us, but Job was so good that satan asked God for special permission to try him. God let him do it, but was very clear as to what was allowed.

Quoted: I've never believed in aliens or ET's, but there is quite obviously something here causing the UFO sightings. I believe it to be demonic because the Bible says that every eye will see Jesus returning riding on the clouds of Heaven, and that nations will attack Him. Without some type of deception, there's no way nations would attack. Something has to have been done just prior to His return making everyone fear ET. BTW--I also believe that satan and the demons are here to torment and deceive us every day, and that satan regularly goes to God and points out our sins. Normally satan isn't given too much power over us, but Job was so good that satan asked God for special permission to try him. God let him do it, but was very clear as to what was allowed.

Well, according to researchers, most of the people who were "abducted" are involved in occult activity....

BTW, interesting that you brought up the whole world banding together to attack Jesus as He comes back.  Why in the world would they do that?  You would think they would know better than to try to kill someone who cannot die.......

Not sure how they would get to that point.  Decieved or willingly ignorant- or both.

A conbination of deception and ignorance. There will be very few who have any idea who they're attacking.

I don't want my family to go through the tribulation, but I'd love to still be here and see His return. I'd also like to see the part where it says of the ones fighting Him that their flesh will rot from their bones while they're still standing. Awesome power.

Offered for the enlightenment of all are some Mormon Musings on the Cosmos with special attention given to space travel.

I have also been thinking, for those that believe in pre-trib rapture, what is the world gonna think when people vanish?

How do you explain that away?

I think the world is ready for an alien visit....er the world is ready to be duped that aliens exist.

Quoted: I have also been thinking, for those that believe in pre-trib rapture, what is the world gonna think when people vanish? How do you explain that away? I think the world is ready for an alien visit....er the world is ready to be duped that aliens exist.

Oh that's already been explained here.

I don't think that the disappearance of such a relative few people will make any difference with all the other stuff that'll be starting up.

Quoted: Quoted: I have also been thinking, for those that believe in pre-trib rapture, what is the world gonna think when people vanish? How do you explain that away? I think the world is ready for an alien visit....er the world is ready to be duped that aliens exist. Oh that's already been explained here.

They found the bodies.  I have seen the pictures.  They all died.  The rapture will not be killing people, but actually bringing some from the grave back to life.  This will be a world wide event that will be the dissapearance of millions of people all at once, with no body to be found.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have also been thinking, for those that believe in pre-trib rapture, what is the world gonna think when people vanish? How do you explain that away? I think the world is ready for an alien visit....er the world is ready to be duped that aliens exist. Oh that's already been explained here. They found the bodies.  I have seen the pictures.  They all died.  The rapture will not be killing people, but actually bringing some from the grave back to life.  This will be a world wide event that will be the dissapearance of millions of people all at once, with no body to be found.

Millions?        144,000 is what I read.  (Though it was never called Rapture. That's man-made).

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have also been thinking, for those that believe in pre-trib rapture, what is the world gonna think when people vanish? How do you explain that away? I think the world is ready for an alien visit....er the world is ready to be duped that aliens exist. Oh that's already been explained here. They found the bodies.  I have seen the pictures.  They all died.  The rapture will not be killing people, but actually bringing some from the grave back to life.  This will be a world wide event that will be the dissapearance of millions of people all at once, with no body to be found. Millions?        144,000 is what I read.  (Though it was never called Rapture. That's man-made).

No no, I am talking about the pre-tribulation rapture.  What you are referring to is the 144,000 Jews who are left to spread the message of the kingdom.

Rapture is concieved from the Latin Vulgate (Latin translation of "caught up").  The word in Latin is raptare.  So it is actually a butcher of a real word, but much of our words today are concieved of older languages and we just butchered them.

I guess you can call it the first resurrection (second if you count the resurrection of the OT saints when Jesus was raised from the dead).  But then, what about those saints who are still alive when they are caught up in the air?  They will not be ressurected....

Rapture seems to fit well.
--------------------------
I Thess. Chapter 4:
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.