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Posted: 1/8/2016 4:52:42 AM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 1/8/2016 4:55:32 AM EDT
[#2]
I'm trying
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Posted: 1/8/2016 9:23:45 AM EDT
[#3]
I've spent most of my life seeking God and trying to be a Christian. Doing all of the things that I'm "supposed to do". At this point I've almost come to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, and I'm coming to the conclusion that I am not one of the elect and God doesn't want me.
Very hard to write this, but it is what it is. It seems that as much as I call out, there is never an answering , just the echo of my own cry. For those of you inclined to pray for me; Thank You. |
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Posted: 1/8/2016 9:46:39 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've spent most of my life seeking God and trying to be a Christian. Doing all of the things that I'm "supposed to do". At this point I've almost come to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, and I'm coming to the conclusion that I am not one of the elect and God doesn't want me. Very hard to write this, but it is what it is. It seems that as much as I call out, there is never an answering , just the echo of my own cry. For those of you inclined to pray for me; Thank You. I am praying for you friend. If you feel so led please feel free to contact me. 
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Posted: 1/8/2016 10:04:20 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am praying for you friend. If you feel so led please feel free to contact me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've spent most of my life seeking God and trying to be a Christian. Doing all of the things that I'm "supposed to do". At this point I've almost come to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, and I'm coming to the conclusion that I am not one of the elect and God doesn't want me. Very hard to write this, but it is what it is. It seems that as much as I call out, there is never an answering , just the echo of my own cry. For those of you inclined to pray for me; Thank You. I am praying for you friend. If you feel so led please feel free to contact me. Same here. Praying. For my information..why makes you feel s if God doesn't want you? Feel free to IM me if you don't want to post here. There are a lot of people who expect that God will make their lives great, answer all their prayers, they get a funny feeling etc when they come to faith. The Bible doesn't say that. I'm not saying you feel that way. Just would like to try and understand what you are meaning. |
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Posted: 1/8/2016 10:15:26 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've spent most of my life seeking God and trying to be a Christian. Doing all of the things that I'm "supposed to do". At this point I've almost come to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, and I'm coming to the conclusion that I am not one of the elect and God doesn't want me. Very hard to write this, but it is what it is. It seems that as much as I call out, there is never an answering , just the echo of my own cry. For those of you inclined to pray for me; Thank You. |
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Posted: 1/9/2016 6:52:11 AM EDT
[#7]
Prayers will be ongoing Brother.
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Posted: 1/9/2016 7:47:05 PM EDT
[#8]
It's kind of hard to explain. I accepted Christ as a teenager and as a young adult even taught Sunday school. Through all of those years, I for want of a better description, did the "Christian thing" bible study, prayer meeting, etc. But I never had any feeling that God was really "real" or that my prayers were more than an echo in the room; and I figured I just wasn't trying hard enough. Eventually I went to church less and less, over the years drifting away.
I lost my Wife to cancer 4 years ago and Christmas before last I was really low. I'd felt for awhile that God was calling me back and Christmas Day I began to read my bible again after many years. Since then I've read the bible and prayed almost every day. Last year when I moved I started looking for a church home, found one that preached the gospel and began to attend regularly. It's a good church and the pastor really does preach the gospel. But a few months ago I began to realize I was in the same place, and the door was still closed. I've still never felt like God is real, Intellectually I might believe it, but from the hearts perspective I could be just trying to make it all up. I have a sincere interest in the things of God and listening to good preaching and teaching, love hymns, still read my bible and pray every day. But I still feel like I'm isolated from God, and none of it makes any difference in my life. I could stop all of it and my life would be just the same. I can't tell people what God did for me because other than what the bible says, I have no idea if he's ever done anything.g I don't need healing or miracles, gee wiz experiences or great answers to prayers, speaking in tongues, a great life, etc. Just a little assurance from God that he's out there and he really does care about me. Thanks guys, it's hard to put 50 years of struggle down in a few words. And many thanks for your prayers too, maybe yours work better than mine. |
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Posted: 1/9/2016 10:19:42 PM EDT
[#9]
Just so you know. A truly reformed person would not think you were unelect.
According to Reformed theology, and the Bible. Mark 7 21-23 Mans heart is evil Romans 3:10-12 man does not seek God 1 Cor 2:14 man can't understand spiritual things. Phil. 1:29 God grants that we believe. John 6:28-29 faith is the work of God Acts 13:48 God appoints people to believe. I quote those verses to show you that if you are seeking God and Believe, it was Gods doing. You said you don't feel anything. Not to be sarcastic...but so what..there is no verse in the Bible that says you should trust your heart. In fact it says the opposite. Don't trust your heart. Believe and have faith. An example I heard yesterday. ...my wife and I are married. Sometimes I don't feel the love for her like I should. That doesn't change the fact that we are married. And if you don't feel love for God, keep faith and ask for it. Nowhere does it say in the Bible that life will be easy for a Christian either. In fact I'd say it is harder than for a non Christian. How many of Jesus's apostles died of old age? I don't know if you meant it or were just saying it, but no need to worry that you aren't doing enough. You aren't. No one can. That's why we are saved by faith alone.( I'm assuming you are not Catholic) if you are the previous is still true. Noone who understands what Biblical predestination is, would call anyone un elect. Only God knows that. Keep praying, trusting in the Lord, and doing what He requires. If you believe, and have faith, it is because God gave it to you. If He didn't want you He would not have done so. One last point, a Calvinist would not agree that you accepted Christ. To say that means that He was waiting on permission to save you. A Calvinist would argue that your salvation is 100% a gift from God. We don't give the creator of the universe permission to do anything. We accept the salvation given to us. That said, I'm not going to argue theology in here, I just wanted you to know how I'm looking at it. Theology is great but it is by faith that we are saved. I'm still praying for you. |
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Posted: 1/9/2016 11:02:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Thanks KD!
I know that we can not do enough and that salvation is by faith. It's just that when God seems absent year after year you tend to think you must be doing something wrong. The church I'm attending is of the reformed persuasion, but I have a hard time with that, tending more toward the Arminian view. I actually never even considered the 2 viewpoints until the last year or so (This isn't about theology and I don't want to go there either, but maybe I'll shoot you an email sometime to discuss Calvinism V Arminianism) Can you really say that in all the years you have been a Christian you have never felt God's presence? Unfortunately I think I can. |
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Posted: 1/10/2016 2:21:04 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks KD! I know that we can not do enough and that salvation is by faith. It's just that when God seems absent year after year you tend to think you must be doing something wrong. The church I'm attending is of the reformed persuasion, but I have a hard time with that, tending more toward the Arminian view. I actually never even considered the 2 viewpoints until the last year or so (This isn't about theology and I don't want to go there either, but maybe I'll shoot you an email sometime to discuss Calvinism V Arminianism) Can you really say that in all the years you have been a Christian you have never felt God's presence? Unfortunately I think I can. You are never alone. The Holy Spirit is with you. http://www.openbible.info/topics/holy_spirit Another link. http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Indwelling-Of-The-Holy-Spirit |
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Posted: 1/10/2016 8:00:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've spent most of my life seeking God and trying to be a Christian. Doing all of the things that I'm "supposed to do". At this point I've almost come to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, and I'm coming to the conclusion that I am not one of the elect and God doesn't want me. Very hard to write this, but it is what it is. It seems that as much as I call out, there is never an answering , just the echo of my own cry. For those of you inclined to pray for me; Thank You. Calvinist doctrine, when taken to it's logical conclusion, is not Biblical as it compromises the character of God. In reality, you do have a choice. God knows who will be saved but He does not force some people to be saved and excludes others from it. That said, God is not a feeling. Nor is He found by a ritual, sacrament, joining a church, following a man (or men), doing works, following rules, etc. he simply asks for our faith, which again in the Greek is belief to the point of commitment - not in those things I mentioned, but in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. One of my favorite illustrations in the Bible as far as saving faith is Luke 7:36-50. Here you have a woman, we do not know what made her sinful, but judging by Simon's instant negative reaction to her presence, we can speculate that: a) he knew her, or at least her reputation, which is possible, but unlikely that Simon associated with a sinful woman. Or b), she exhibited the sign of a prostitute in the Jewish culture at that time: an uncovered head. We don't know what her sins were exactly; in some translations Simon called her a "outcast". If she was a prostitute, it was obviously promiscuity, and likely adultery. It could even have included sleeping with a woman. Under the Romans, the Jews were not allowed to exact capital punishment for any of these violations of Jewish law. As for Simon the Pharisee; he was a proud man who based his understanding of God on rules and rituals. In Simon's narrow, dogmatic view of God, this woman was guilty; condemned by Jewish Law, and therefore effectively dead to God, with no hope of any redemption. But God, in the flesh that we humans call Jesus Christ, rebukes Simon, and essentially tells him that she, in her humility, is greater than Simon. Why? Just because she washed his feet when Simon couldn't get his lowest servant to, as per the custom? Because he forgot to follow a rule? There's more to it than that. What the woman did was come in, bearing all her flaws, possibly with her head uncovered, and humbled herself before God. Whereas Simon, too wrapped up in his own doctrinal and moral correctness, couldn't even be bothered with the concept. In the end, it was the woman who had her weight lifted, and was given peace.This concept is played out again in Luke 18:9-17. The Outcast Woman didn't say a word, nor was she baptized before she entered that room and left forgiven. She had obviously repented prior to entering - BTW the Greek word for 'repent' actually means 'change one's mind' not 'turrn from your sins' which is impossible to do before being regenerated as a result of accepting Christ; it's sloppy theology and language when preachers say 'turn from your sin' and believe in Jesus.
Hope this helps. |
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Posted: 1/10/2016 8:10:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's kind of hard to explain. I accepted Christ as a teenager and as a young adult even taught Sunday school. Through all of those years, I for want of a better description, did the "Christian thing" bible study, prayer meeting, etc. But I never had any feeling that God was really "real" or that my prayers were more than an echo in the room; and I figured I just wasn't trying hard enough. Eventually I went to church less and less, over the years drifting away. I lost my Wife to cancer 4 years ago and Christmas before last I was really low. I'd felt for awhile that God was calling me back and Christmas Day I began to read my bible again after many years. Since then I've read the bible and prayed almost every day. Last year when I moved I started looking for a church home, found one that preached the gospel and began to attend regularly. It's a good church and the pastor really does preach the gospel. But a few months ago I began to realize I was in the same place, and the door was still closed. I've still never felt like God is real, Intellectually I might believe it, but from the hearts perspective I could be just trying to make it all up. I have a sincere interest in the things of God and listening to good preaching and teaching, love hymns, still read my bible and pray every day. But I still feel like I'm isolated from God, and none of it makes any difference in my life. I could stop all of it and my life would be just the same. I can't tell people what God did for me because other than what the bible says, I have no idea if he's ever done anything.g I don't need healing or miracles, gee wiz experiences or great answers to prayers, speaking in tongues, a great life, etc. Just a little assurance from God that he's out there and he really does care about me. Thanks guys, it's hard to put 50 years of struggle down in a few words. And many thanks for your prayers too, maybe yours work better than mine. I was in the same boat about a year ago. I wasn't following God. I had "gotten saved" as a teenager but backslid for 20 years. And yes I think that's possible - because while I was trying to run from God He kept bringing me back. I even got into paganism, but when I got really anxious or worried I still prayed to Him. My experience lately has revolved around two things: prying my fingers off the things of the world I love, and giving Him my whole heart - both of which are really the same thing. I think it's tough when your older (I'm 40) and being a Christian so long because you don't really remember how you were before He regenerated you. We'll never be rid of "old man" completely until we pass into glory (Romans 7). At the same time, maybe God is trying to motivate you to go out and get engaged in some sort of ministry - which isn't necessarily in the pastoral sense, but maybe in a church outreach. |
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Posted: 1/10/2016 8:24:18 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks KD! I know that we can not do enough and that salvation is by faith. It's just that when God seems absent year after year you tend to think you must be doing something wrong. The church I'm attending is of the reformed persuasion, but I have a hard time with that, tending more toward the Arminian view. I actually never even considered the 2 viewpoints until the last year or so (This isn't about theology and I don't want to go there either, but maybe I'll shoot you an email sometime to discuss Calvinism V Arminianism) Can you really say that in all the years you have been a Christian you have never felt God's presence? Unfortunately I think I can. Some links on the serious issues intellectually consistent Calvinists have with God's character here and here. I have felt God's presence. I reject the experiential-centered churches but also the ones who deny the possibility of it. My background isn't reformed though - I went to one reformed church here in GA and while the people were nice it was dead-dead-dead. I'm not hyper-charismatic either. My background is Calvary Chapel, who Baptists think is Pentecostal and Pentecostals think is Baptist, lol. In reality it's expository teaching with a rejection of cessationism and a dose of dispensationalism. Here's a good (living) CC teacher here. Unfortunately these days CC's are a mixed bag. God isn't a feeling though; and we shouldn't go chasing the 'god-high' like so many hyper-charismatics do, because that's not serving God. The real test of one's dedication to God is the ability to serve Him whether things are good or bad. We tend to forget him in the good times, or only praise Him when good things happen. We should praise Him the bad times and remember Him in the good also. |
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Posted: 1/11/2016 7:59:05 PM EDT
[#15]
Agreed that God isn't a feeling, and that it really isn't about us and how we feel. But if there is no communion, no peace, no joy, no sense of being loved; then all that's left is salvation. Not to belittle that by ANY means, but it almost makes it seem like little more than an insurance policy against hell.
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Posted: 1/11/2016 9:43:57 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've spent most of my life seeking God and trying to be a Christian. Doing all of the things that I'm "supposed to do". At this point I've almost come to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, and I'm coming to the conclusion that I am not one of the elect and God doesn't want me. Very hard to write this, but it is what it is. It seems that as much as I call out, there is never an answering , just the echo of my own cry. For those of you inclined to pray for me; Thank You. Predestination is hogwash, especially the brand sold by Calvin, who knew nothing about what he was talking about. As a child of God, you were created for one purpose, and that is to spend eternity with God and to enjoy all the wonderment that includes. You were not created just to be tossed on a heap and forgotten, and anyone who thinks otherwise obviously has a twisted interpretation of God. He didn't send His Son down here to get nailed to a cross for SOME of us. He came to save ALL of us, and that includes YOU. Now, that having been said, believe me when I say that God can seem to be fickle by our standards. I am another who wrestles with my faith every day, wondering if I'm just another fool who has fallen for the spirit-in-the-sky nonsense. There is a reason I chose Thomas as my Confirmation name. 
The trick with God is that He seems to know exactly when it is you are really ready to hear Him, which means He comes in His good time, not yours. We may get frustrated at this, but it is not our place to question. The saying goes that if you seek you shall find, and if you knock, the door will be opened. It didn't address WHEN. So please keep seeking, and pound on that door for all you're worth. The answer may come before you finish reading this post, or the instant before your eyes close for the last time, but it will come. In my case, it came when I had absolutely given up and broken down, and it came in a single whispered word, "Yes". Of course, you'd think that would be enough, but I'm just a little stubborn. 
Hang in there, brother. You are NOT DAMNED unless YOU make that choice. Keep seeking God; He already knows that you are.
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Posted: 1/11/2016 9:50:21 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Agreed that God isn't a feeling, and that it really isn't about us and how we feel. But if there is no communion, no peace, no joy, no sense of being loved; then all that's left is salvation. Not to belittle that by ANY means, but it almost makes it seem like little more than an insurance policy against hell. Seems that way sometimes, doesn't it? In my case, I deeply fear that I am being presumptuous in thinking the Lord will save my butt "just because". Should I be doing more? Do I REALLY believe? Will I spend eternity the same way I spend too much time now: regretting easy things I could have done in the past, but didn't? All I know is that Jesus knows who and what we are. He lived as one of us. He came for US, not the ones for whom this stuff come easy. Remember, He came to call sinners to repentance, not the righteous. He is there, as are the Father, the Holy Ghost, and all the saints who have made it to heaven. To borrow an analogy (I can't remember the source), life is a game played on a field before an unseen roaring crowd of those who went before us who are even now cheering us on. When all else fails, cling to the fact that He died for YOU, and that you are far from alone in your struggles. Nothing worth having is easy... |
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Posted: 1/11/2016 10:43:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems that way sometimes, doesn't it? In my case, I deeply fear that I am being presumptuous in thinking the Lord will save my butt "just because". Should I be doing more? Do I REALLY believe? Will I spend eternity the same way I spend too much time now: regretting easy things I could have done in the past, but didn't? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Agreed that God isn't a feeling, and that it really isn't about us and how we feel. But if there is no communion, no peace, no joy, no sense of being loved; then all that's left is salvation. Not to belittle that by ANY means, but it almost makes it seem like little more than an insurance policy against hell. Seems that way sometimes, doesn't it? In my case, I deeply fear that I am being presumptuous in thinking the Lord will save my butt "just because". Should I be doing more? Do I REALLY believe? Will I spend eternity the same way I spend too much time now: regretting easy things I could have done in the past, but didn't? |
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Posted: 1/11/2016 10:46:43 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Predestination is hogwash, especially the brand sold by Calvin, who knew nothing about what he was talking about. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've spent most of my life seeking God and trying to be a Christian. Doing all of the things that I'm "supposed to do". At this point I've almost come to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, and I'm coming to the conclusion that I am not one of the elect and God doesn't want me. Very hard to write this, but it is what it is. It seems that as much as I call out, there is never an answering , just the echo of my own cry. For those of you inclined to pray for me; Thank You. Predestination is hogwash, especially the brand sold by Calvin, who knew nothing about what he was talking about. God does know who will be saved, that's Ephesians 1. The issue with Calvinism is the role in salvation that He allows man to have, and it comes down to the definition of freedom and ultimately the nature of God's character. |
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Posted: 1/11/2016 11:58:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Predestination is hogwash, especially the brand sold by Calvin, who knew nothing about what he was talking about. As a child of God, you were created for one purpose, and that is to spend eternity with God and to enjoy all the wonderment that includes. You were not created just to be tossed on a heap and forgotten, and anyone who thinks otherwise obviously has a twisted interpretation of God. He didn't send His Son down here to get nailed to a cross for SOME of us. He came to save ALL of us, and that includes YOU. Now, that having been said, believe me when I say that God can seem to be fickle by our standards. I am another who wrestles with my faith every day, wondering if I'm just another fool who has fallen for the spirit-in-the-sky nonsense. There is a reason I chose Thomas as my Confirmation name.
The trick with God is that He seems to know exactly when it is you are really ready to hear Him, which means He comes in His good time, not yours. We may get frustrated at this, but it is not our place to question. The saying goes that if you seek you shall find, and if you knock, the door will be opened. It didn't address WHEN. So please keep seeking, and pound on that door for all you're worth. The answer may come before you finish reading this post, or the instant before your eyes close for the last time, but it will come. In my case, it came when I had absolutely given up and broken down, and it came in a single whispered word, "Yes". Of course, you'd think that would be enough, but I'm just a little stubborn.
Hang in there, brother. You are NOT DAMNED unless YOU make that choice. Keep seeking God; He already knows that you are. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've spent most of my life seeking God and trying to be a Christian. Doing all of the things that I'm "supposed to do". At this point I've almost come to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination, and I'm coming to the conclusion that I am not one of the elect and God doesn't want me. Very hard to write this, but it is what it is. It seems that as much as I call out, there is never an answering , just the echo of my own cry. For those of you inclined to pray for me; Thank You. Predestination is hogwash, especially the brand sold by Calvin, who knew nothing about what he was talking about. As a child of God, you were created for one purpose, and that is to spend eternity with God and to enjoy all the wonderment that includes. You were not created just to be tossed on a heap and forgotten, and anyone who thinks otherwise obviously has a twisted interpretation of God. He didn't send His Son down here to get nailed to a cross for SOME of us. He came to save ALL of us, and that includes YOU. Now, that having been said, believe me when I say that God can seem to be fickle by our standards. I am another who wrestles with my faith every day, wondering if I'm just another fool who has fallen for the spirit-in-the-sky nonsense. There is a reason I chose Thomas as my Confirmation name.
The trick with God is that He seems to know exactly when it is you are really ready to hear Him, which means He comes in His good time, not yours. We may get frustrated at this, but it is not our place to question. The saying goes that if you seek you shall find, and if you knock, the door will be opened. It didn't address WHEN. So please keep seeking, and pound on that door for all you're worth. The answer may come before you finish reading this post, or the instant before your eyes close for the last time, but it will come. In my case, it came when I had absolutely given up and broken down, and it came in a single whispered word, "Yes". Of course, you'd think that would be enough, but I'm just a little stubborn.
Hang in there, brother. You are NOT DAMNED unless YOU make that choice. Keep seeking God; He already knows that you are. Please show me this from the bible. Because if this is true, He failed. Unless you are a universalist. Because all are not saved. Some will be in Hell. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 9:30:33 AM EDT
[#21]
Oh yeah, and a lot of prominent Calvinist teachers (and a few non-Calvinists) teach a backloaded salvation-by-works theology called Lordship Salvation, which is a false gospel.
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Posted: 1/12/2016 10:48:09 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh yeah, and a lot of prominent Calvinist teachers (and a few non-Calvinists) teach a backloaded salvation-by-works theology called Lordship Salvation, which is a false gospel.  I was not familiar with the term so I looked it up...you are either looking at another definition or someone has hacked your account. I'm seeing no works.. Can you explain?
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Posted: 1/12/2016 10:50:06 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good thing we aren't saved by our work (Ephesians 2:8-9). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Agreed that God isn't a feeling, and that it really isn't about us and how we feel. But if there is no communion, no peace, no joy, no sense of being loved; then all that's left is salvation. Not to belittle that by ANY means, but it almost makes it seem like little more than an insurance policy against hell. Seems that way sometimes, doesn't it? In my case, I deeply fear that I am being presumptuous in thinking the Lord will save my butt "just because". Should I be doing more? Do I REALLY believe? Will I spend eternity the same way I spend too much time now: regretting easy things I could have done in the past, but didn't? Go start another thread. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 10:53:39 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please show me this from the bible. Because if this is true, He failed. Unless you are a universalist. Because all are not saved. Some will be in Hell. 2 Corinthians 5:15, for one. Yes, He died for ALL of us. That some will choose not to accept that gift and end up in hell doesn't change the fact that Christ did, in fact, die for EVERYONE. As such, I completely reject predestination, and urge the OP to realize that no, he is NOT abandoned by God, nor is he intended by God to be in hell. All he needs to do is keeping seeking the Lord, and the Lord will take care of the rest, whether He chooses to make His actions known or not. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 11:01:09 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2 Corinthians 5:15, for one. Yes, He died for ALL of us. That some will choose not to accept that gift and end up in hell doesn't change the fact that Christ did, in fact, die for EVERYONE. As such, I completely reject predestination, and urge the OP to realize that no, he is NOT abandoned by God, nor is he intended by God to be in hell. All he needs to do is keeping seeking the Lord, and the Lord will take care of the rest, whether He chooses to make His actions known or not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Please show me this from the bible. Because if this is true, He failed. Unless you are a universalist. Because all are not saved. Some will be in Hell. 2 Corinthians 5:15, for one. Yes, He died for ALL of us. That some will choose not to accept that gift and end up in hell doesn't change the fact that Christ did, in fact, die for EVERYONE. As such, I completely reject predestination, and urge the OP to realize that no, he is NOT abandoned by God, nor is he intended by God to be in hell. All he needs to do is keeping seeking the Lord, and the Lord will take care of the rest, whether He chooses to make His actions known or not. Not being a smart a here...but if you reject it what do you do with that word in the Bible? It is used many times..not just eluded to. The word predestined is used. How do you explain v 14 which says all have died? If this refers to the world as in everyone who ever lived, again, that is universalism..because we have all died. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 12:10:42 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go start another thread. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Agreed that God isn't a feeling, and that it really isn't about us and how we feel. But if there is no communion, no peace, no joy, no sense of being loved; then all that's left is salvation. Not to belittle that by ANY means, but it almost makes it seem like little more than an insurance policy against hell. Seems that way sometimes, doesn't it? In my case, I deeply fear that I am being presumptuous in thinking the Lord will save my butt "just because". Should I be doing more? Do I REALLY believe? Will I spend eternity the same way I spend too much time now: regretting easy things I could have done in the past, but didn't? Go start another thread. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 12:12:11 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was not familiar with the term so I looked it up...you are either looking at another definition or someone has hacked your account. I'm seeing no works.. Can you explain?Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Oh yeah, and a lot of prominent Calvinist teachers (and a few non-Calvinists) teach a backloaded salvation-by-works theology called Lordship Salvation, which is a false gospel. I was not familiar with the term so I looked it up...you are either looking at another definition or someone has hacked your account. I'm seeing no works.. Can you explain? |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 12:23:13 PM EDT
[#28]
http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html
This is what I am refering to. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 1:02:40 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html This is what I am refering to. Even Hovind can discern this. Paul Washer, a prominent LS guy, says, "If you don't have works...you're going to hell". This is wrong, plain and simple, for the reasons above. Here's him saying it. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 1:23:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not being a smart a here...but if you reject it what do you do with that word in the Bible? It is used many times..not just eluded to. The word predestined is used. How do you explain v 14 which says all have died? If this refers to the world as in everyone who ever lived, again, that is universalism..because we have all died. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Please show me this from the bible. Because if this is true, He failed. Unless you are a universalist. Because all are not saved. Some will be in Hell. 2 Corinthians 5:15, for one. Yes, He died for ALL of us. That some will choose not to accept that gift and end up in hell doesn't change the fact that Christ did, in fact, die for EVERYONE. As such, I completely reject predestination, and urge the OP to realize that no, he is NOT abandoned by God, nor is he intended by God to be in hell. All he needs to do is keeping seeking the Lord, and the Lord will take care of the rest, whether He chooses to make His actions known or not. Not being a smart a here...but if you reject it what do you do with that word in the Bible? It is used many times..not just eluded to. The word predestined is used. How do you explain v 14 which says all have died? If this refers to the world as in everyone who ever lived, again, that is universalism..because we have all died. We are all destined for hell because we chose to go. Those who choose to look to Christ are saved from that fate through the charity of God. So I apply "predestined" to the fact we screwed it up, not the the idea that God created some folks specifically to toss into hell. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 7:38:41 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Read the link above. GQ wrongfully defines the term. MacArthur goes WAY beyond what they address in his book (that they cite). Even Hovind can discern this. Paul Washer, a prominent LS guy, says, "If you don't have works...you're going to hell". This is wrong, plain and simple, for the reasons above. Here's him saying it. Ok. I read your link. Though the site you linked is a PCA pastor, the feeling I get about him within the PCA is that he may be known to stir things up, and exaggerate things. I think that by saying a lot of Calvinist say that is a stretch also. I don't know of any who do. I have not read mcaurthers book so I won't comment on just bits and pieces, I will say that if that is the correct context, I disagree with his thinking. The site backs up their disagreement with the WCF. So to take that reasoning further, any church or denomination that affirms the WCF or the LBC for that matter disagrees with works based salvation on any level. I do not know what John Mcarther affirms. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html This is what I am refering to. Even Hovind can discern this. Paul Washer, a prominent LS guy, says, "If you don't have works...you're going to hell". This is wrong, plain and simple, for the reasons above. Here's him saying it. Ok. I read your link. Though the site you linked is a PCA pastor, the feeling I get about him within the PCA is that he may be known to stir things up, and exaggerate things. I think that by saying a lot of Calvinist say that is a stretch also. I don't know of any who do. I have not read mcaurthers book so I won't comment on just bits and pieces, I will say that if that is the correct context, I disagree with his thinking. The site backs up their disagreement with the WCF. So to take that reasoning further, any church or denomination that affirms the WCF or the LBC for that matter disagrees with works based salvation on any level. I do not know what John Mcarther affirms. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 8:00:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We are all destined for hell because we chose to go. Those who choose to look to Christ are saved from that fate through the charity of God. So I apply "predestined" to the fact we screwed it up, not the the idea that God created some folks specifically to toss into hell. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Please show me this from the bible. Because if this is true, He failed. Unless you are a universalist. Because all are not saved. Some will be in Hell. 2 Corinthians 5:15, for one. Yes, He died for ALL of us. That some will choose not to accept that gift and end up in hell doesn't change the fact that Christ did, in fact, die for EVERYONE. As such, I completely reject predestination, and urge the OP to realize that no, he is NOT abandoned by God, nor is he intended by God to be in hell. All he needs to do is keeping seeking the Lord, and the Lord will take care of the rest, whether He chooses to make His actions known or not. Not being a smart a here...but if you reject it what do you do with that word in the Bible? It is used many times..not just eluded to. The word predestined is used. How do you explain v 14 which says all have died? If this refers to the world as in everyone who ever lived, again, that is universalism..because we have all died. We are all destined for hell because we chose to go. Those who choose to look to Christ are saved from that fate through the charity of God. So I apply "predestined" to the fact we screwed it up, not the the idea that God created some folks specifically to toss into hell. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 8:09:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html This is what I am refering to. Even Hovind can discern this. Paul Washer, a prominent LS guy, says, "If you don't have works...you're going to hell". This is wrong, plain and simple, for the reasons above. Here's him saying it. Ok. I read your link. Though the site you linked is a PCA pastor, the feeling I get about him within the PCA is that he may be known to stir things up, and exaggerate things. I think that by saying a lot of Calvinist say that is a stretch also. I don't know of any who do. I have not read mcaurthers book so I won't comment on just bits and pieces, I will say that if that is the correct context, I disagree with his thinking. The site backs up their disagreement with the WCF. So to take that reasoning further, any church or denomination that affirms the WCF or the LBC for that matter disagrees with works based salvation on any level. I do not know what John Mcarther affirms. I think this guy explains the issue pretty well. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 10:03:30 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The bold part is a "hyper-Calvinist" view (ala John Piper), though some consider it 'intellectually consistent Calvinism'. I call it garbage. |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 10:10:26 PM EDT
[#35]
In your opinion...is God all knowing? For instance, does He know if someone will accept Him or be damned before they are born?
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Posted: 1/12/2016 10:39:44 PM EDT
[#36]
" Is God all knowing?"
Perhaps/most probably; but if he is all knowing, how do you account for him saying that people have done things that he not only didn't command, but things that it never entered his mind that they would do? |
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Posted: 1/12/2016 10:56:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Give me a verse.
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Posted: 1/13/2016 12:26:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Jeremiah 32 v 35
35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin. |
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Posted: 1/13/2016 8:15:48 AM EDT
[#39]
, the passages in Jeremiah refer to the abhorrent practices of local idolatrous pagan communities around Israel. The specific behavior alluded to is the horrible act of Israel burning their children on the altars of pagan gods. It cannot be denied that this is the behavior God is referring to through His prophet Jeremiah. However, we must note that God warned Israel against this exact sin hundreds of years earlier. Deuteronomy 12:31 warns Israel not to follow after the gods of other nations because "œthey even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods." Later, in 18:10, God warns Israel that "œThere shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire." In light of the reference to "œMolech" in Jeremiah 32:35, Moses records in Leviticus 18:21 "œYou shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Molech."
Now, can we rightly say that these statements in Isaiah accurately reflect an ignorance of God regarding the pagan practice of child sacrifice by fire? Had God truly never considered this act? Clearly not, since He several times warns them against this very same act hundreds of years prior! These practices simply could not have entered God´s mind for the first time in Jeremiah. Instead, we must understand that these phrases illustrate the godly hatred God has for this particular sin and the supreme displeasure God has in His children in participating in this sin. God is saying that this behavior is so vile, so wicked, so detestable that He does not want even to consider such a thing as happening "“ although, as we have seen, He in fact does know about such behavior. Copied that answer from another site. |
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Posted: 1/13/2016 6:55:30 PM EDT
[#40]
Umm, I'm not convinced.
God said it never entered his mind. I think all of the explaining is to try and cover for that. After all, they couldn't admit that God meant what he said, now could they?? The fact that God may have warned them hundreds of years earlier does not exclude the possibility that he might not have imagined it before it was first practiced hundreds of years earlier. |
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Posted: 1/13/2016 7:04:19 PM EDT
[#41]
Here you go.
The third type of texts concern God’s "regret" over past decisions. Genesis 6:6 reads, "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth and it grieved him at his heart." Such passages do not teach that God is shocked by what has occurred as if He did not anticipate the wickedness of man. The language underlines God’s abhorrence at sin in a very striking way. Referring to a similar passage (Jeremiah 7:31, etc, where God says through the prophet that "it never entered my mind" that His people could be so wicked as to sacrifice their own children to a pagan deity), Caneday writes, Hyper-scrupulous minds may not use the expression "it never entered my mind" lest they lie, but this only betrays ignorance of the idiom’s meaning. It is an intensive idiom to express what is unthinkable. He adds in a footnote, Open theists fail to recognize the idiomatic nature of this expression. If they insist that we must take the expression literally, then they have a problem, because they also claim that God knows all possibilities, yet here is something that did not enter God’s mind. If that is the case, then he did not know this even as a possibility. Caird cleverly observes, "No doubt in every community there will be someone who takes everything literally, someone whose leg you dare not pull for fear that it will come away in your hands."107 Besides, it did enter God’s mind, for as Ware demonstrates God warned against the practice of child sacrifice centuries before it happened.108 It is interesting to note the fruit of Russell Fuller’s research that the traditional Rabbinical interpretation of these kinds of texts was also to treat them as anthropomorphisms. Open theism, then, "requires us to believe that Christians and Jews have misunderstood history, theology and exegesis for thousands of years."109 |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 1:09:49 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In your opinion...is God all knowing? For instance, does He know if someone will accept Him or be damned before they are born? Yes. That doesn't mean He created the person for the purpose of being damned. That person CHOSE. |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 7:06:35 AM EDT
[#43]
So He created people knowing that they would chose hell and created them anyways. If He knew before they were created that they would choose hell, and created them anyways then in reality they had no choice after they were born, they were gonna choose anyways because God already knew that right?
How does God know they are going to reject Him? Are you going with the " looked down the corridors of time" reasoning? Which would lead us back to His at one point not knowing, hence He had to look down the corridor and learn. |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 9:08:44 PM EDT
[#44]
"Then in reality they had no choice after they were born, they were gonna choose anyways because God already knew that right? "
No, I don't think so. They are gonna choose because they want to, not because God knew they would. I'm no theologian, but I think God has a directive will, and a permissive will. There are things he wills to happen, and things he does not will, but rather allow. I let my Grandson out to play knowing he will tromp in mud puddles and get all muddy. I know he will because he always does ( not quite as omniscient as God I realize). I do not will him or force him to do it, he does it because he chooses to. I only choose to permit it although I could prevent it. |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 9:52:00 PM EDT
[#45]
I don't see the relevance in that. If God knows something will happen, it will happen. If it doesn't happen then He didn't know and was supprised. Therefore if God knows that someone will reject Him, it is a given that they will. They may still chose to reject Him..but they will never choose to accept Him. Because to do so would mean He would have been wrong. So people who believe in predestination believe that God had a purpose in allowing the people who wont believe to be born. As it says in Romans, to serve His will and be vessels of wrath. People who reject this must believe that God knew that these people would reject Him, but he let them be born anyways, knowing they would go to hell, and He had no purpose in this as it was their decision. That, to me is less loving.
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Posted: 1/14/2016 10:09:37 PM EDT
[#46]
But WHY do they reject God.? Is it his will that they reject him or their will?
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass Westminster Confession ch 3 |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 10:17:05 PM EDT
[#47]
Because they followed their heart. The heart is evil. So yes, they used their free will.you will hear no argument from someone who is reformed, that the person who rejects Christ does not follow his or her free will.
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Posted: 1/14/2016 10:36:59 PM EDT
[#48]
Then how do you square that with this?
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass Westminster Confession ch 3 This says to me that it is ordained by God that they should reject him. |
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Posted: 1/14/2016 11:03:20 PM EDT
[#49]
According to the bible..the heart is wicked No one seeks God. That is not to say we don't have free will. If I put a pile of rotten meat and a pile of apples in front of a buzzard, which would he chose? The rotten meat every time. Did I take away his free will? No. He freely had the choice. But he will follow his will. Man is the same way. We will choose sin every time. When God regenerates us we will choose Him. Because we are changed. Faith is a gift from God. That's straight from the bible also. Earlier in this thread I listed verses talking about the depravity of man. People who don't understand what reformed theology is, get their facts from YouTube. Then they say it denies the will of man. It does nothing of the sort. It agrees that man follows his will. The bible says " no one seeks God" I agree.
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Posted: 1/14/2016 11:40:08 PM EDT
[#50]
I'm sorry but in my opinion when God chooses who he regenerates he chooses who will and who will not reject him.
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