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Posted: 2/1/2017 7:12:52 PM EDT
[#1]
retirement account ,your primary house, life, insurance policies and annuities generally are not assets that can be attached.
edit 80% lowers 
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Posted: 2/1/2017 7:39:09 PM EDT
[#2]
Every lawyer will give you different advice. There's more than one way to fry chicken.
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Posted: 2/1/2017 7:56:35 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every lawyer will give you different advice. There's more than one way to fry chicken. Yes, but most good strategies will use trusts, LLCs, and other entities. |
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Posted: 2/1/2017 11:02:41 PM EDT
[#4]
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Yes, but most good strategies will use trusts, LLCs, and other entities. Sure, and some will say it isn't necessary. There are some people that create an LLC for each investment property, then some do a series LLC. Or one LLC owning all properties. |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 12:22:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Thanks for the answers.
I have an attorney that made up my will, health care POA, etc, but he's the only one I know. I'll have to ask if he is experienced in this area. Otherwise I'll have to do some reading. |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 12:41:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
retirement account ,your primary house, life, insurance policies and annuities generally are not assets that can be attached. edit 80% lowers Retirement accounts are generally off limits, but the distributions probably aren't once they hit your checking account. |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 12:46:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
So when I get done paying my student loans, I'd like to start to build up some assets - like owning a home/land, rental houses, larger savings accounts, property for hunting, stocks, etc etc. I'd like to start thinking ahead on how to protect these. My job is in a fairly litigious area - never been sued, but get threatened all the time just by the nature of what I have do sometimes. Where do you start to learn about this? What type of lawyer could I talk with? Would this be estate management or is that different? Any recommended reading? You really need to talk to a lawyer in your state. Incorporation will help, but not for your own acts (you can always be sued for acts you commit, even if your business is incorporated). Carrying a lot of insurance is a very good idea. The reason is not so much liability protection (if the loss is covered, they pay it) but for a defense. One of the things you are buying when you get insurance is a legal defense. They pay the lawyer. They may do this even if the coverage issue is questionable. When your net worth starts getting over the half million dollar range, seriously consider meeting with a good (and that means expensive) trusts and estates lawyer who will help you plan. |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 5:40:27 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You really need to talk to a lawyer in your state. Incorporation will help, but not for your own acts (you can always be sued for acts you commit, even if your business is incorporated). Carrying a lot of insurance is a very good idea. The reason is not so much liability protection (if the loss is covered, they pay it) but for a defense. One of the things you are buying when you get insurance is a legal defense. They pay the lawyer. They may do this even if the coverage issue is questionable. When your net worth starts getting over the half million dollar range, seriously consider meeting with a good (and that means expensive) trusts and estates lawyer who will help you plan. Seems good advice. Thanks. My net worth is still negative if I count in my mortgage and student loans. Just planning for the future. I bought this book on Amazon. Reads very easily. About 1/2 way done. Explains a lot, especially terms, although I have a lot to learn still. Very interesting stuff that I really had no idea about. |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 6:34:16 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sure, and some will say it isn't necessary. There are some people that create an LLC for each investment property, then some do a series LLC. Or one LLC owning all properties. Oklahoma doesn't require LLC owners to be reported anywhere. 
OP, the answer on what is "best" is very situation specific, dependent on you, your wants and needs, and state laws. |
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Posted: 2/3/2017 12:40:54 PM EDT
[#10]
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Lawyer here, and I will file judgment lien your primary house in a heartbeat (do it all the time), along with all other real property you own. I have also convinced persons to sign over life insurance as settlement of a debt so that I would stop making their lives difficult. Retirement accounts are generally off limits, but the distributions probably aren't once they hit your checking account. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
retirement account ,your primary house, life, insurance policies and annuities generally are not assets that can be attached. edit 80% lowers Retirement accounts are generally off limits, but the distributions probably aren't once they hit your checking account. That's why the op needs to find someone who knows what they are doing. |
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Posted: 2/3/2017 3:54:26 PM EDT
[#11]
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Yes, but most good strategies will use trusts, LLCs, and other entities. This isn't true in PA at least... In PA if you have rental properties it is MUCH easier and the same protection to do them in your own name, have landlord insurance and a great umbrella policy. The only reason to have an LLC or other entity to place your rental property unless you are doing it on a very large scale in at least in PA is to just brag and say yea I have MEGA BUCKS PROPERTY GROUP LLC.... I have a few law firms as insurance clients and talked with several great lawyers on the subject at different times over the years. |
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Posted: 2/3/2017 5:12:14 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This isn't true in PA at least... In PA if you have rental properties it is MUCH easier and the same protection to do them in your own name, have landlord insurance and a great umbrella policy. The only reason to have an LLC or other entity to place your rental property unless you are doing it on a very large scale in at least in PA is to just brag and say yea I have MEGA BUCKS PROPERTY GROUP LLC.... I have a few law firms as insurance clients and talked with several great lawyers on the subject at different times over the years. This thread is being derailed a little... Anyway, I would never use those attorneys for anything. There are lots of reasons to form and LLC or SCorp ranging from accounting, taxes, personal asset protection, personal privacy, and more. I do own rentals. My lawyer, accountant, and tenants (if they read the lease) are the only ones that know about my LLC. Bragging rights had zero to do with it. |
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Posted: 2/3/2017 5:57:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread is being derailed a little... Anyway, I would never use those attorneys for anything. There are lots of reasons to form and LLC or SCorp ranging from accounting, taxes, personal asset protection, personal privacy, and more. I do own rentals. My lawyer, accountant, and tenants (if they read the lease) are the only ones that know about my LLC. Bragging rights had zero to do with it. We (wife) have a decent sized s corp for employee benefits business and I have a property management company that is a LLC and own quite a few properties. Reinsel Kuntz Lesher is our tax advisor/ accountant and they are pretty well known and great at what they do. I am pretty sure I have the tax benefits down. Can you expand on the asset protection? I was really under a different impression. |
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Posted: 2/3/2017 6:33:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We (wife) have a decent sized s corp for employee benefits business and I have a property management company that is a LLC and own quite a few properties. Reinsel Kuntz Lesher is our tax advisor/ accountant and they are pretty well known and great at what they do. I am pretty sure I have the tax benefits down. Can you expand on the asset protection? I was really under a different impression. The most basic idea is that all business you do is not in your own name. Owning a bunch of rental properties in your own name (aka running a rental business as sole proprietor) does not protect your assets. Are you really going to rely on an insurance company to protect you? Don't put all your eggs in that basket. The insurance company doesn't have your best interest at heart. There is a reason LLC stands for limited liability company. The owners are protected from the liabilities incurred by the business. Having a separate entity for each property can also help protect each property from being available to satisfy liabilities from other properties. Some states have series LLCs like shrimpmoney mentioned. Taxi cab companies sometimes do crap like this and undercapitalize each cab entity or they make "independent contractor" drivers. It makes it difficult to collect if there is not enough insurance. 
If someone trips and falls, breaks a leg, gets sepsis, and dies on one of your sidewalks... how much insurance do you have again? Oh, you have 20 rental properties though? They are mine now. And since it is a sole proprietor business, all your personal assets are mine now too. Nice car. |
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Posted: 2/3/2017 6:57:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The most basic idea is that all business you do is not in your own name. Owning a bunch of rental properties in your own name (aka running a rental business as sole proprietor) does not protect your assets. Are you really going to rely on an insurance company to protect you? Don't put all your eggs in that basket. The insurance company doesn't have your best interest at heart. There is a reason LLC stands for limited liability company. The owners are protected from the liabilities incurred by the business. Having a separate entity for each property can also help protect each property from being available to satisfy liabilities from other properties. Some states have series LLCs like shrimpmoney mentioned. Taxi cab companies sometimes do crap like this and undercapitalize each cab entity or they make "independent contractor" drivers. It makes it difficult to collect if there is not enough insurance.
If someone trips and falls, breaks a leg, gets sepsis, and dies on one of your sidewalks... how much insurance do you have again? Oh, you have 20 rental properties though? They are mine now. And since it is a sole proprietor business, all your personal assets are mine now too. Nice car. So if the properties are in LLCs they can not get any money out of me personally if a railing breaks and they break a leg etc? What is the risk of having the proper landlord insurance and a umbrella policy? |
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Posted: 2/3/2017 11:04:35 PM EDT
[#16]
In this book I'm reading, the author says that his firm helped a client put an apartment complex into an LLC - or actually a different LLC for each building. That way if he got sued for an accident in one building, he wouldn't lose all the buildings at once.
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Posted: 2/4/2017 11:30:32 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if the properties are in LLCs they can not get any money out of me personally if a railing breaks and they break a leg etc? What is the risk of having the proper landlord insurance and a umbrella policy? It can still happen, but it is more difficult. It's called "piercing the veil" or "alter ego." You can also be personally liable if the negligence is a result of your own acts, like if you cause a car wreck. Corporations, LLLPs and other entities can protect you too. There are many differences between all the entities, and what you choose depends on your situation. LLCs are generally regarded as being the most flexible though. Insurance doesn't give you privacy, might be too low, might be denied coverage, etc. It is just 1 tool in the tool belt. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 11:36:25 AM EDT
[#18]
The poters above are right and I would have replied similarly.
The LLC is insured on its own. If you have a catostrophic loss that exceeds insurance limits, theoretically you can walk away, your personal assets intact and or any other llcs or corps. LLC or Scorp should separate the individual from the entity. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 11:42:45 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In this book I'm reading, the author says that his firm helped a client put an apartment complex into an LLC - or actually a different LLC for each building. That way if he got sued for an accident in one building, he wouldn't lose all the buildings at once. That's the idea. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 12:27:53 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It can still happen, but it is more difficult. It's called "piercing the veil" or "alter ego." You can also be personally liable if the negligence is a result of your own acts, like if you cause a car wreck. Corporations, LLLPs and other entities can protect you too. There are many differences between all the entities, and what you choose depends on your situation. LLCs are generally regarded as being the most flexible though. Insurance doesn't give you privacy, might be too low, might be denied coverage, etc. It is just 1 tool in the tool belt. Thank you. The reason I steered away from the llc route with the properties is as the lawyer above said, and the lawyers I talked to is that llc or not they will get to your personal assets if need be. I am familiar with a lot that was posted about piercing the veil etc. I am going to sit down with another lawyer that I actually hire and isn't a client of mine in the up coming week. The guys I worked with before are really at top notch law firms and the one even is founding partner with like 40 years experience and I am going to be beyond pissed if they gave me bad advice. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 2:47:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thank you. The reason I steered away from the llc route with the properties is as the lawyer above said, and the lawyers I talked to is that llc or not they will get to your personal assets if need be. I am familiar with a lot that was posted about piercing the veil etc. I am going to sit down with another lawyer that I actually hire and isn't a client of mine in the up coming week. The guys I worked with before are really at top notch law firms and the one even is founding partner with like 40 years experience and I am going to be beyond pissed if they gave me bad advice. Lawyers have specialties. Don't go to a litigator for estae planning. Don't go to a estate expert for business needs. etc. etc. etc. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 3:12:56 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lawyers have specialties. Don't go to a litigator for estae planning. Don't go to a estate expert for business needs. etc. etc. etc. -Employment law -Banking law -Real estate law -Municipal and school law -Business and corporate law -Estate planning and wealth management Are the listed specialties of the firm I sat down with the partner from. He does specialize in real estate law personally. As I said I'm going to be calling a guy in philly to sit down with this week. That I am unaffiliated with to see what he says. |
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Posted: 2/5/2017 11:21:58 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if the properties are in LLCs they can not get any money out of me personally if a railing breaks and they break a leg etc? What is the risk of having the proper landlord insurance and a umbrella policy? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The most basic idea is that all business you do is not in your own name. Owning a bunch of rental properties in your own name (aka running a rental business as sole proprietor) does not protect your assets. Are you really going to rely on an insurance company to protect you? Don't put all your eggs in that basket. The insurance company doesn't have your best interest at heart. There is a reason LLC stands for limited liability company. The owners are protected from the liabilities incurred by the business. Having a separate entity for each property can also help protect each property from being available to satisfy liabilities from other properties. Some states have series LLCs like shrimpmoney mentioned. Taxi cab companies sometimes do crap like this and undercapitalize each cab entity or they make "independent contractor" drivers. It makes it difficult to collect if there is not enough insurance.
If someone trips and falls, breaks a leg, gets sepsis, and dies on one of your sidewalks... how much insurance do you have again? Oh, you have 20 rental properties though? They are mine now. And since it is a sole proprietor business, all your personal assets are mine now too. Nice car. So if the properties are in LLCs they can not get any money out of me personally if a railing breaks and they break a leg etc? What is the risk of having the proper landlord insurance and a umbrella policy? There isn't risk in having the insurance - the risk is in whether you have ENOUGH insurance to cover the liability mentioned in a scenario as above. If you have $2 million insurance coverage, but someone sues and is awarded $4 million, you're still on the hook for the additional award. If the LLC is sued, then the the plaintiff can go after whatever is owned by the LLC, but you personally would not be liable (there are exceptions to this, but typically that only occurs in cases of fraud on your part). If your LLC goes belly up, any other businesses you own or later start are still shielded from liability incurred by the now-defunct LLC. There are also other reasons to consider a business, such as retirement and estate planning. You'd need an accountant/financial advisor as well as an attorney to go over the specific circumstances and determine which is most beneficial to you. Mike |
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