User Panel
Posted: 2/25/2015 3:10:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: EdwardAvila]
"The UTM Civilian Training Ammunition (CTA) is the safest, most reliable and accurate alternative to live ammunition – ideal for beginners, recreational and competition shooters without the need to go to the range."
I've shot UTM training rounds for a number of years, both for fun as well as FOF training. It's an innovative idea how they put the system together to ensure safety, but provide realistic operation of your weapon systems. It has been in use with military and law enforcement for many years, but until now was not available for the civilian market. I got a chance to play with the new Civilian Training Ammunition conversion kit at SHOT, and will definitely be getting one for home use. WHY So why would we be interested in shooting UTM CTA? First, it's a great way to introduce new shooters to the sport. Everything you do from loading mags to the operation of the AR is the same as during live fire. Other technologies like airsoft or paint guns may replicate the look and feel, but require very different operation, takedown, loading, etc. With UTM you're shooting your rifle, optics, mags and any other accessories. Most importantly for new shooters is that the system is safe; it is impossible to accidentally fire a live round out of a weapon that's been converted for CTA without converting back. And converting takes less than a minute, as all that is required is to swap out the bolt carrier group. Second, it gives you the ability to shoot outside of a range. With no range required, you can practice just about anywhere and any time you want. THE TECHNOLOGY What makes the UTM technology so special? First, the conversion is done with a simple swap of the bolt carrier group. That's all there is to it; take out yours, and put in theirs. Everything else remains untouched. What this bolt carrier does is provide a level of safety. By using an offset firing pin versus a centerfire pin, it is impossible to accidentally fire a live round out of the converted weapon. So naturally, the ammunition which is the real genius of the system uses a rimfire primer to work with the rimfire carrier. Actually, the ammo uses two primers in order to isolate the larger amount of energy needed to cycle the action from the small amount required to propel the plastic 1 gram projectile. This allows UTM to provide consistent velocities for the projectile without having to worry about excess energy, which in turn leads to improved accuracy with muzzle velocities of ~375fps yet less than 3ft/lbs of energy. In turn, the action maintains reliable function and realistic rates of fire with minimal noise and emissions. WHAT'S INCLUDED So if you purchase the CTA Target Shooting Kit, now available for pre-order, you'll get:
So everything you'll need to convert, shoot, and clean up, including the targets! PRE ORDER The CTA Target Shooting Kit is available for pre order from the UTM web site for $349 and comes with 100rds of ammo. Additional ammo is available for $29.50/50rds. |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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This looks very interesting. I like the fact I could actually fire my weapon in my backyard and keep my skill sets up in the winter, or days when I just need to blow off some steam and fire a few rounds.
How much is Ammo? Is the velocity high enough that the zero on my sights/scopes will remain the same? I am assuming this is more of a 15-25 yard range? All my questions answered on the website. Thanks |
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Dave / ASRM
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." — Mark Twain |
This actually has my interest. The ability to shoot in my back yard from time to time would be awesome.
Would you be able to roughly sight in a new optic at say 25-50 yards with this. Then fine tune it when you go to the range? If so that would be even better, for me anyway. Lord knows I have purchased a new optic/sight for a rifle and installed it, yet haven't had time to go to the range to sight it in, thus having a rifle unsighted and then basically worthless, until range time is available. |
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If you can't dazzle them with brilliance....Riddle them with bullets!
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How loud is it? I can't imagine it being that quiet for in home use seeing that it will set off primers.
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Originally Posted By Ryo:
How loud is it? I can't imagine it being that quiet for in home use seeing that it will set off primers. View Quote I am the country, so sound isn't an issue, we have a range down the hill (private) I would imagine like a 22? I doubt they would be legal in city limits though. |
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Dave / ASRM
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." — Mark Twain |
That was my impression that it would sound like a 22. Not super loud but loud enough to attract attention from neighbors..
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Is this the same system that military/police have been using that hits hard enough to hurt but also makes a mark where it hits?
When I was a LEO we didn't have such cool training tools, the F.A.T.S system (Firearms Training Simulator) was our big technological advancement. I've seen the marking rounds system used on TV and always thought it should absolutely be available to civilians for real training, looks like it finally has! There are a lot of good training methods but there is nothing that will get your attention and make you think like a force on force realistic training system that gives you real time feedback on what you did right and especially what you did wrong. |
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Sic gorgiamus allows subjectos nunc
SUPPORT YOUR RIGHT TO ARM BEARS!!! I may look calm but in my mind I've killed you 3 times... |
Originally Posted By Brandi:
Is this the same system that military/police have been using that hits hard enough to hurt but also makes a mark where it hits? When I was a LEO we didn't have such cool training tools, the F.A.T.S system (Firearms Training Simulator) was our big technological advancement. I've seen the marking rounds system used on TV and always thought it should absolutely be available to civilians for real training, looks like it finally has! There are a lot of good training methods but there is nothing that will get your attention and make you think like a force on force realistic training system that gives you real time feedback on what you did right and especially what you did wrong. View Quote There are two similar systems-- simunitions and UTM. I prefer UTM. It seems a little more reliable, and with Simunitions, it is necessary to use a dedicated upper. It does leave a mark, and requires a face mask. |
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Do the projectiles damage the barrel bore if used for an extended time (many rounds without cleaning)?
Do the projectiles leave residue in the bore that require cleaning before shooting live ammo? In other words, could i shoot the UTM stuff then swap the bcg and head to the range or is it required/advised to clean before using live ammo? James in Denver |
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Originally Posted By JamesInDenver:
Do the projectiles damage the barrel bore if used for an extended time (many rounds without cleaning)? Do the projectiles leave residue in the bore that require cleaning before shooting live ammo? In other words, could i shoot the UTM stuff then swap the bcg and head to the range or is it required/advised to clean before using live ammo? James in Denver View Quote James- not sure if a large number of rounds (over 1000?) would require a cleaning of the bore, but I would run something through there regardless (to make sure there are no obstructions). The kit recommends running through a dry bore, so after shooting I would run a patch with some oil on it just to protect the metal like you normally would after cleaning. Projectiles are plastic, so any residue would easily wipe out. As stated, they recommend running on a clean and DRY barrel... lightly oiling the bolt as any other, but the projectile is very light so no oil in the chamber or barrel. Dry snake or patch to dry out barrel and chamber prior to shooting. For those asking, this is definitely indoor safe as far as sound volume. Just make sure you have a backstop as it will embed in your drywall. |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Is it possible to reload this ammo?
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Originally Posted By JamesInDenver:
+1 OR, for those of us who do NOT reload, it is possible to send the "used" shells back to the company to be reloaded or in credit for new ammo? James in Denver View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By JamesInDenver:
Originally Posted By 908ssp:
Is it possible to reload this ammo? +1 OR, for those of us who do NOT reload, it is possible to send the "used" shells back to the company to be reloaded or in credit for new ammo? James in Denver Not that I'm aware of. |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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I am sold on these, guess it's time to break out some plastic so I can see how they work.
Would be nice to pop a few rounds before dinner. |
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Dave / ASRM
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." — Mark Twain |
I just read where they ship, states not to Illinois. What restrictions are placed on Illinois?
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Dave / ASRM
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." — Mark Twain |
I just ordered the kit and 500 extra rounds to start practicing at home on those days I can't get to the range.
Nice folks on the phone, very responsive, and I was able to still order even though I was in IL, those darn Chicom's gives us a bad rap. |
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Dave / ASRM
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." — Mark Twain |
Originally Posted By ASRM:
I just ordered the kit and 500 extra rounds to start practicing at home on those days I can't get to the range. Nice folks on the phone, very responsive, and I was able to still order even though I was in IL, those darn Chicom's gives us a bad rap. View Quote Glad to hear. I had contact them with your IL concern and they were going to look into why the web site would not let you order... |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:
Glad to hear. I had contact them with your IL concern and they were going to look into why the web site would not let you order... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:
Originally Posted By ASRM:
I just ordered the kit and 500 extra rounds to start practicing at home on those days I can't get to the range. Nice folks on the phone, very responsive, and I was able to still order even though I was in IL, those darn Chicom's gives us a bad rap. Glad to hear. I had contact them with your IL concern and they were going to look into why the web site would not let you order... Turns out IL, and some of the other more progressive states with ID cards and such don't allow for their online ordering system. I was able to speak to them and we did it over the phone and with me sending in my DL and FOID. Again very nice folks, every time I called I was able to speak to the person I wanted. Looking forward to trying out the products. |
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Dave / ASRM
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." — Mark Twain |
Just got my order from UTM today, very nice packaging, very detailed instructions, the ammo looks very well built, can't wait to shoot some just to play with it. Ordered a brick of thier ammo plus the 200 it came with, figure that will last a while, based on what I read on another post, they make quality ammo.
Thanks for the heads up, and thanks to UTM for accommodating me here in IL. Now if those roofers working on our roof would get done so I can shoot. Don't care for them seeing my warez... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Dave / ASRM
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." — Mark Twain |
I finally got around to shooting a box (50 rounds) of the UTMs and was impressed! All I heard was the buffer spring and the bolt slam, wife was in the kitchen making dinner and said it sounded like a BB gun.
It cycled perfect, hit on target, kicked like you would expect, I sort of missed the crack of a shot :) Again thanks for turning me on to this. |
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Dave / ASRM
"Heaven goes by favor; if it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in." — Mark Twain |
Just as an FYI regarding "reloading" or saving the "brass".
I made a quick call to the US HQ for the company, a very nice lady answered and I asked about saving the brass for reloading. She said that, at this time, there are no plans for accepting the old "brass" for credit for reloading. I'm NOT a reloader, but maybe if someone who DOES reload could reverse engineer the rounds and figure out how to reload them, that would be cool. Maybe you could just buy the projectiles, and reload the "brass" using primers. If I get a set (which I probably will), I'll probably save the "brass" anyway, and maybe call back to see if they would accept it. James in Denver |
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For anyone in the area, we have this setup at the Canton store this weekend for anyone that wants to try it out.
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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The MMR rounds for FoF are able to be fired from the CTA bolt kit. If you can find them, they would be a viable alternative to the plastic tipped CTA rounds. Of course, all FoF safety protocols need to be in place before shooting up your neighbor. Stray cats are fair game though....
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Originally Posted By coloccw:
The MMR rounds for FoF are able to be fired from the CTA bolt kit. If you can find them, they would be a viable alternative to the plastic tipped CTA rounds. Of course, all FoF safety protocols need to be in place before shooting up your neighbor. Stray cats are fair game though.... View Quote Absolutely. All of the UTM rounds use the same bolt conversion, so it's all interchangeable. AS others have noted, this is a simple bolt carrier swap and you shoot your weapon with any of the UTM ammo options. IMHO the most versatile solution for training. |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:
Absolutely. All of the UTM rounds use the same bolt conversion, so it's all interchangeable. AS others have noted, this is a simple bolt carrier swap and you shoot your weapon with any of the UTM ammo options. IMHO the most versatile solution for training. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:
Originally Posted By coloccw:
The MMR rounds for FoF are able to be fired from the CTA bolt kit. If you can find them, they would be a viable alternative to the plastic tipped CTA rounds. Of course, all FoF safety protocols need to be in place before shooting up your neighbor. Stray cats are fair game though.... Absolutely. All of the UTM rounds use the same bolt conversion, so it's all interchangeable. AS others have noted, this is a simple bolt carrier swap and you shoot your weapon with any of the UTM ammo options. IMHO the most versatile solution for training. Are the MMR rounds available to civilians? Seems like it would be tough to get a hold of? |
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We are professionals. They aren't alarms, they are calls to action. We don't freak out, we don't get scared. We look at what they are telling us and we get to work. -CBRNE Instructor
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Originally Posted By 44Punk:
Are the MMR rounds available to civilians? Seems like it would be tough to get a hold of? View Quote Rounds are available for sale; there's nothing legally restricting access to civilians, but as you can imagine no one wants a bunch of people without training and proper safety gear to be shooting at each other, hence the "restrictions". Obviously I am not a rep for the company, so my opinion holds no merit, but that's strictly my opinion/observation. |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:
Rounds are available for sale; there's nothing legally restricting access to civilians, but as you can imagine no one wants a bunch of people without training and proper safety gear to be shooting at each other, hence the "restrictions". Obviously I am not a rep for the company, so my opinion holds no merit, but that's strictly my opinion/observation. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By EdwardAvila:
Originally Posted By 44Punk:
Are the MMR rounds available to civilians? Seems like it would be tough to get a hold of? Rounds are available for sale; there's nothing legally restricting access to civilians, but as you can imagine no one wants a bunch of people without training and proper safety gear to be shooting at each other, hence the "restrictions". Obviously I am not a rep for the company, so my opinion holds no merit, but that's strictly my opinion/observation. Thanks for the quick response. I may call them on Monday and see if my SOT pulls any favors. Great review. |
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We are professionals. They aren't alarms, they are calls to action. We don't freak out, we don't get scared. We look at what they are telling us and we get to work. -CBRNE Instructor
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really old thread, but...what did you find out about buying MMR rounds?
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FBHO
FHRC |
Si vis pacem habeatis filios vestros, ad bellum pa
NC, USA
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Any updates on this?
Will the CTR BCG actually work with the MMR, SBR, and the BBR rounds... and what is the availability of said rounds to us mere mortal dirty "CIVILIANS"? I mean they seem hell bent on not serving the civilian market which would be huge in my opinion. I know a lot of people will scoff at the price of admission but I really believe this system would be a great teaching tool... Could someone who owns one of these post some pics of the system broken down? AR specifically..... Also does any have both MMR and CTR to compare? Has anyone used both ammo flavors in the same rifle with the same set up? Just curious.. I am really wanting to get into one of these systems for training purposes... Thanks WP |
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson
KM4OZX |
Originally Posted By wparkinson:
Any updates on this? Will the CTR BCG actually work with the MMR, SBR, and the BBR rounds... and what is the availability of said rounds to us mere mortal dirty "CIVILIANS"? I mean they seem hell bent on not serving the civilian market which would be huge in my opinion. I know a lot of people will scoff at the price of admission but I really believe this system would be a great teaching tool... Could someone who owns one of these post some pics of the system broken down? AR specifically..... Also does any have both MMR and CTR to compare? Has anyone used both ammo flavors in the same rifle with the same set up? Just curious.. I am really wanting to get into one of these systems for training purposes... Thanks WP View Quote WP- The BCG is the same regardless of ammo. As stated above, there is nothing illegal about buying the MMR rounds, you just need to find a source. I've seen them on used firearms sales boards, but come SHOT I can get a definitive answer about civilian sales going forward. Not sure what you're looking for as far as the "system broken down" as it is just the BCG and ammo. |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Si vis pacem habeatis filios vestros, ad bellum pa
NC, USA
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Thanks for the reply....
I was just curious as to how the BCG came apart for cleaning and maintenance. Is it just like the regular BCG? I have found several sources of the ammo, specifically the MMR, but the all say the sales are restricted to .MIL or LEO... or Professional Training Organizations. I suppose it could be for liability reasons... IDK... Just seems odd to me since the whole idea to the "System" is designed to be Less than lethal... why make it hard to get? Even the blank rounds don't seem to be available for civilian sales.... that would be awesome to have for "Live" dry fire... Thanks again! WP |
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." - Thomas Jefferson
KM4OZX |
Originally Posted By wparkinson:
I was just curious as to how the BCG came apart for cleaning and maintenance. Is it just like the regular BCG? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By wparkinson:
I was just curious as to how the BCG came apart for cleaning and maintenance. Is it just like the regular BCG? Will have to look next time I get my hands on it, unless someone else here gets to it first. I have found several sources of the ammo, specifically the MMR, but the all say the sales are restricted to .MIL or LEO... or Professional Training Organizations. I suppose it could be for liability reasons... IDK...
Just seems odd to me since the whole idea to the "System" is designed to be Less than lethal... why make it hard to get? Even the blank rounds don't seem to be available for civilian sales.... that would be awesome to have for "Live" dry fire... Definitely for liability reasons; imagine some kids shooting these at each other without proper eye protection. Or aiming and shooting loaded "real guns" at each other. It takes a certain level of attention to detail to make sure everyone is using in a safe manner, and I certainly wouldn't want that liability unless I knew users had a certain level of responsibility, hence the "qualifications". Those groups have insurance, training, investment in safety, etc. Just my guess, but I certainly understand from that perspective. |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Interesting timing... got a marketing email from UTM today.
On their web site they say: "AVAILABILITY - The UTM Target Shooting Kit and Ammunition are the only products currently available to the public. All other products are controlled items and currently only sold to the Military, Law Enforcement Agencies, Professional Training Organization’s or licensed Private Security Companies. To order any of our controlled products please contact us or one of our local dealers or distributors for more information." However, they do have a $249 UNIVERSAL AR-15 SERIES CONVERSION solution that includes:
MAGAZINE - 5 Round magazine AMMUNITION - 50 ROUNDS of UTM CIVILIAN TARGET AMMUNITION https://www.utmworldwide.com/product/cta-target-shooting-kit-core-kit/ |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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