I've been a big shooter for some time now and I'm getting somewhat bored with my usual drills.  I'm comfortable enough in them that I'm finding myself complaining about hundredths of a second; I'm realizing that my training is too competition-based.  This summer I want to start getting serious about more "practical" shooting; since I'm in the Army, I want to prepare accordingly.  Shooting around vehicles and obstacles, modified positions, getting in and out of prone, etc.  I've been wanting to get a Plate carrier for a while and shoot with it to get more comfortable with the change in body mechanics, mag pouch location,etc, but theyre a tad expensive for me right now.  Are they worth the investment?

Just don't turn into that guy that always wears it to the range.

In reality you should only wear your rig to test that it fits properly, shit doesn't fall off when run and it doesn't block you from getting a proper shooting stance while prone.

This is a good video

I totally get what you're saying; I'm not interested in being a gear junky loading up to be tacticool. Though, you do bring up a similar question I have.  Is shooting with body armor dramatically different than shooting without?  Obviously the shouldering is going to be a little different, and your center of gravity is going to raise up a bit, but is it really that much different?

Train as you would fight.

I think a plate carrier would be over-the-top for your entry level classes, but would probably be more acceptable for advanced classes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only way of telling if you have your gear set up properly is to actually train with it.

ETA: interesting video.

Train as you fight but at the same time don't be that guy at the local FUDD range running around being ridiculous.  Know your surroundings

Totally agree.

The question here, is how does the OP fight?

Most dudes wanting to defend their home won't be fighting in kit.

There is almost zero advantage to training in a PC unless you:

a) Just want to, because it's cool (which is perfectly acceptable, of course)
b) Plan to fight in a PC

I may not have mentioned it, but I'm in the army.  So the likelihood of me fighting in body armor is probably greater than not.  Though, part of my concern is that Army body armor is not the same as a PC, but I'd rather spend $250 on a PC than however much more on Army issue stuff that's pretty hard to find and possibly(?) illegal to buy on the civ market.  I figure at the very least, shooting would be similar and kit setup could be made pretty much the same.  But still, it's an investment that may be unnecessary.

Like we said, though, it's a "fight like you train, train like you... whatever".

You're really the only person who knows what your training goals are.

So, when I set up training regiments, I do so using goals, such as "I want to be able to shoot effectively from inside my car" or "I want to be able to do xyz in my PC".

From those training goals, I build my kit.

IMO, your approach is wrong. The question should not be "should I buy and train in a PC?".

Your question should be "What are my training goals?"

Good point, noted.

Figure out what your training goals are and use whatever equipment or gear is necessary and available to complete those goals. If you are training to get into positions with gear on and get hits more efficiently, then wear gear. If you are working on pistol consistency at 25m, then don't.

Mission drives the gear.

Why not just take your IOTV to the class?

Never seen a FUDD that wasn't "ridiculous", might as well return the favor. If I'm at a formal range (rare, I hate rules) and I see a guy with a PC I think, "there's someone that is taking shit seriously"...unless there is some evidence to the contrary.

You definantly should invest in equiment and training. If you bored you need to push yourself, hard to progress forward when thier is boredom and lack of enthusiasm.......call it morale.


Ive been doing training at home and a recent class in one. From my perspective it has great advantages.

1. Conditioning
2. Gear testing
3. Familiarization

I have a belt for everything except for rifle mags. Mags are on the PC.
Here's my take.....while i can keep the PC in the vehicle on the off chance in the civilian world stuff gets real.....i typically dont based on averages and experience. What i do keep is the belt.....which i can easily add kydex/hsgi or whatever brand you want mag pouches too. The belt is quick on and off.......the plate carrier....not so much.

Now when nutjob gets pissed/blood pressure spikes at the local Sonics because there are peanuts in his banana shake, he is off his meds, and pulls a gun out on people or takes a waitress hostage it would be beneficial to be able to quickly get my crap together.....and putting on a plate carrier doesnt fall into that scenario when seconds count. But ill be confident knowing there is plenty of cover and ive got the basics at hand to stop a threat and save lives........and because ive been training with all that heavy stuff ill be quicker.

With the belt i already have a weapon.....and the additional ability for something harder hitting if need be. The plate carrier just makes you look like a cool kid at school for most, but if there is time to don it and you have it at hand then much mo better for you. Think about how much deadlier you can be offensively from confidence when in the back of your mind you know you can take a few pops to the torso.....not that you want to but if your going to be hanging your junk out you might as well do it like a man. Id hate to be frozen in fear behind cover, mind totally removed from thinking about the situation at hand because I was worried about taking a hit.........whatever helps you overcome your own mind so you can do the work at hand. Training and equipment.

Im flexible so if any of this is off base feel free to discuss my shortcomings

Man just thinking about it i might have to put on that sexy SOHPC and sit around the house for a bit. l i be like wife be like

It depends on your gear setup. If you go super bare bones, lightweight and low profile such as a minimalist plate carrier with ceramic front and back plates and just a couple mahs you will barely notice it but if you are running side plates, tons of mag pouches, med kit, dump pouch battle belt, pistol, pistol mags, hydro pouch, helmet, etc... it is WAY different.

I would recommend at a minimum a simple plate carrier with a couple mags, its not to expensive of a setup. Most people focus on guns and ammo but forget about the bigger picture of being mentally and physically prepared. Being able to defend yourself doesnt end once you come home from the gunshop with your firearm. You need to train with it in real world situations, you need to have body armor, have some basic first aid training, have a plan for your home and family, designate a safe room, know where the loaded and ready guns are, and lets not forget about being physically fit. None of this matters if your 300 lbs over weight, first of you wont be able to defense yourself and second the biggest threat isnt the crack head kicking in your back door its diabetes and heart disease.

You will get plenty of shots to play with that shit in the army. Find out what's realistic and go from there.

You don't have to dress up to train. Try shooting in adverse conditions, when no one in their right mind would be out shooting that's when you should head out.


Wearing all the geardo shit won't make you a gun fighter. I'd also consider researching and learning the physical and psychological factors when stress is involed and try to replicate these things. With modern technology and studies there is a huge evolution on the table here that has been learned over the last two decades. Tunnel vision, degradation of dexterity, auditory exclusion so forth.


Most people never think about this stuff. Put on some plates a drop leg and fucking yeeehaw it to the dinner table. It's a thinking man's game. Learn to think when the body is drained of resources. You will thank me later.


Money would be far better spent on a carbine class offered by someone with real knowledge on the subject.


Train how you fight is thrown around so much without a real thought of its entitled meaning. Pat macnamara has a fun short video on the matter.

agreed... fk the butthurt, or the Fudds. if your running squared away and safe, everyone else can mind their business.
Fudds bitch and make issues when there are none.

FIFY

Seriously if I saw anyone at our local ranges in full kit(outside of a class obviously), I wouldn't be the only one at them.


As to the topic, since you are in the Army and will most likely be fighting in armor, I would think that training in armor would be a wise decision. I would set up a plate carrier as closely as possible to your armor setup, so there will be carryover and familiarity.

why shall we worry if someone gets all butthurt and because im wearing a chest rig or camo or whatever ?
honestly , its none of anyones fn business. unsafe is another story.

Yep. ZFG if someone doesn't like how I train/practice.

I attended day one of a two day carbine course today (first ever actual shooting class). Based in part on reading this thread, I decided to wear my plate carrier. While it sucked balls, it wasn't quite as bad as I expected. It is definitely worthwhile to practice with it for sure.

It's hot as hell, but IMO it's worth the protection and the conditioning getting used to it.

Why have it if you don't use it?

OT, but how is your class?

thats how i feel. if they dont like it, try to take my chest rig off me then.
or letting a miserable  Fudd dictate how you shoot. most are bitter , miserable and just want your brass. LOL. it kills them if anyone shoots
more then one round. they still have their first box of grand pappys 35 wheeling. ill wear a full kit and a ruck if i choose.

exactly.. why buy any of this shit, guns etc... if your not going to use it.

Being my first course, I don't have much of a basis for comparison, but I thought it went pretty well. The course was open to people just starting out with AR15s, and for that reason the first day went a bit slower than the instructors (or I) wanted. There were some safety issues in the first 30 minutes of day one which the instructors noticed immediately and nipped in the bud. I'd say folks like me who are experienced amateurs definitely learned some useful stuff, and that the noobies saw a huge improvement. The course was defensive carbine 1 by Defensive Concepts NC.



It rained like crazy this morning, so I also got to test out my newer milsurp gortex under my plate carrier and got to practice shooting in the rain. The latest generation of milsurp gortex is awesome. Fantastic gear. Probably the best 100 bucks I've spent on ebay. It is very thin and breathes very well.



I'm also happy with my shooting gear. My belt setup and plate carrier didn't interfere with each other during use, and both are reasonably comfortable to wear for extended periods. I'd say I'd have no issues with them at all if I were physically fit.



 

Sounds like you're getting solid instruction. Stay with it. It's totally worth it to take your training as far as you can go.

Part of my reason for getting back in shape years ago was because of training, and wanting better performance.

The only guys I have ever seen at a range in a PC looked like they just walked out of the store with it. Shit is shiny and new, pouches are nine kinds of fucked up, eight AR mags and six pistol mag pouches and most empty because they found out that shit is heavy when you put ammo in the mags. Maybe one out of four actually have plates in them at all. So yeah I kind of giggle at those guys.

I dont hold any malice towards dudes like that. I just view them the same as cowboy action action shooters. Dudes who are out to have a good time and indulge a little fantasy. They just wear a different costume. I keep hearing about these squared away steely eyed killers with sweat stained plate carriers training at public ranges so I guess they are out there I just havent ever seen one.

Get out there and use that kit!

Train like you fight. You don't want shtf and this be the first time you have to shoot with it on.

Does that mean I have to train in my underwear for home defense?

I did some defensive concepts pistol courses before I left North Carolina and was really impressed with them.  Good group of guys (at that time anyway not sure what their staffing looks like now) and solid instruction.

Train with your PC.. Sure, Why not...

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I do it. But like others have said, Don't be that guy. Know your surroundings. I like to shoot solo, so I go at times when I Know I can have the place to myself.
The only way to know what works for you and how to get it set up right, is to use it.

Army here as well.  you already know the answer. train as you fight.  Wear the shit you are going to wear for the real deal put stuff where it will be in real life.  that will tell you if your rig works or not.  I surprised at all the people who are concerned about some sort of range dress code.  who gives a crap.  You are there to maximize your training. how you conduct yourself will tell people what they need to know.  Our lives depend on having our shit together.  If you haven't trained with it, it wont be there for you.  I will say that for me it depends on what I am doing, as military body armor is really heavy, and not routinely issued out (at least not at my unit.)  Be safe out there.

i see people that cant even reload a AR , drawing a mag from gear or even a pocket for that matter.

When I was a range instructor, we would have our shooters re-zero going from KD (known-distance, fundamentals-based), to Combat Training (full gear, "dynamic" environment). On average,  +/- 40% would have to change their zero.

Test it out. See what works for you, your gear, and how it's set up. After that, learn to shoot both ways.

Also, are you not allowed to take your issued armor home with you?

Agree bigtime with this.  It really only is worth it if you are likely to shoot with it.  Military and LE sure.  Otherwise I think you'll find it's pretty uncomfortable.  lol

If you're in one of those units who only allows you to use the issued body armor, then you'd be better off training with your issued body armor in your spare time.

Doesn't make sense to me to get a nice plate carrier to train with, then going back to the IOTV or whatever dumb shit they give you when it counts.  You want to make sure you shake out all the odds and ends with whatever you're going to deploy with as it fits and suits your mission.

That being said, is your issued kit not in your possession?  Reading your other post makes it seem as if you don't have access to it.

There is some overthinking and potentially overspending here. While a full tilt boogie rig would be best , if your true concern is training then a training aid can be made very inexpensively with a knockoff vest and some aluminum (or whatever plates). Training without the armor is nothing like training with the armor. You overheat, you lose torso flexibility, you lift and drop excess weight going from standing to prone and back. Your carbine may shoulder differently, your pouches may be difficult to use. Practice taking a dump in armor - that's no fun either. Also train for ingress and egress of vehicles to see what gets caught.

I can train six or eight hours at the range and not really get too spent. If I wear full armor then my lower back gets beat, my neck gets beat and my quads get spent from lifting all of the extra weight. If we make it a 115 degree day then there are loads more liabilities.

The rig does not need to be expensive if it is just a training aid. Try to match the configuration of your issue vest as much as possible so the training is more aligned with reality.

If you decide you want a full tilt boogie rig then you can buy a good vest on the commercial surplus market for cheap (not USGI) with little fear of any legal repercussions. Toss in some plate simulators to match the weight of your issue rig. Upgrade the plates to the real thing as the budget allows. Keep in mind that training is abusive to plates and that you may still want to use plate simulators for training and swap them for real plates when the vest is put into standby mode.

Depends on your training goals.

Having done both for work (LE), I spent time training in everything from off-duty concealed carry mode (Supertuck holster and spare mags in my pockets) to duty belt/soft armor and then all the way up to full gear (pants, boots, concealed soft armor, duty belt, plate carrier, rifle, and backup gun) like I would if I had to respond to an active shooter in the middle of my shift.

Full battle rattle sucks. Hell, the concealable armor and duty belt sucks bad enough, but throwing a PC on and trying to do anything, especially in the Florida summer heat, made it five times as uncomfortable.

90% of the time I will ever use an AR I will be wearing some sort of place carrier for work....the other 10% it might be near if i need it at the house

so generally I train with one, and I usually wear one with guys I don't know...

Okay Okay... I know Pat McNamara is a bad ass, but I just kept waiting for him to say "Oh YEA!!!Snap into a slim Jim"

lol nah

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If I am going to a new class of a higher level than I have completed before I want to be as stripped down as possible.  Rifle and single mag pouch if the course allows.  My focus is on the content of that course, learning new techniques and drills.  No need to complicate it at that point.  Hopefully at the end of the class I will find some areas that need improvement.  I then take those techniques, skill, drills, and deficiencies to my home range and start to get better, as I get better I add stuff back in.  Eventually I would add in the PC or web gear, night/low light, getting out of vehicles/through doors, time pressure, etc.

Yes, there is a time and a place to wear PPE in training - including helmets, gloves, knee pads, the ubiquitous Sun/Wind/Dust goggles that I hate.  Maybe don't always wear armor, but sometimes do.  It does make things different, and being more aware is always good.

If you don't need your own gear because your agency issues your equipment you can save some money on plates by buying the ones cross-fitters use as "weight plates" that are not ballistic rated at  Rogue.com

I'd never considered this for uniformed police on patrol.  Already wearing concealed armor and then having to put a plate carrier on over top, because no time to change whats on under the uniform.  Doubling up like that sounds awful, two layers of armor rubbing together and what not.

I wore mine briefly in a class. It sucked. But I wanted to try anyway.

i eventually removed my plates and ran it as a mean to carry mags.

i eventually ditched it and just carried loaded mags on my belt and dump pouch.

The comment above mine is why you SHOULD train in your plate carrier. If your home defense plan includes the use of armor you should be used to it, if your job has you in soft armor with a potential to need to armor up with plates over, you should get used to it, and if you attend training classes with strangers who you don't know their abilities/safe handling, you should get used to it.

The first time I had a hot gun pointed at me from point blank range was not in the middle east, it was in Ohio, at a class with some people who enrolled well above their skillset and pay grade to feel better about themselves.

If you have armor, wear it, armor always sucks, but you need to learn to move in it, shoot in it, and get accustomed to the limitations it creates.

Bingo. If you own one, you should be comfortable+competent with it. Otherwise, what are we doing here?

Please don't buy kit for Instagram. Just...no.

Aside from a couple of points (1, read the situation and don't make yourself look like an asshole. 2, barring physical disability) yeah, sure you should train in a plate carrier and the rest of the gear.

Here's the thing...you don't lift weights (train) in order to bench press a heavy object off of yourself (fight). You do them to build muscle that generalizes to other situations. Same with training in gear - if you can shoot well, run, crawl and otherwise move around wearing 30 lbs of kit then you can damn sure do it without it.

There are some niche things that don't cross apply (the old velociraptor standing shooting position for example) but that's not your bread and butter.