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Posted: 2/26/2017 12:33:39 AM EDT
Looking for training videos on small team tactics as well as instruction on NV and night shooting. Anyone have any recommendations? thanks
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 12:06:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Join the Army and get in to SF for the real thing.
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 3:13:28 PM EDT
[#2]
True that option would be the best option...But given my current age and life circumstances buying instructional videos and spending some range time with buddies seems like the most feasible. If anyone has any recommendations let me know
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 10:11:01 PM EDT
[#3]
Pat Rogers did a Shoothouse DVD with Panteo that covers some interior team tactics. I'm not aware of any covering outdoor team tactics.
Link Posted: 2/27/2017 11:43:45 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Looking for training videos on small team tactics as well as instruction on NV and night shooting. Anyone have any recommendations? thanks
View Quote

+1 on the Pat Rogers kill house video.
Also look at Paul Howe's Exterior Movement.

Most publishers consider teamwork to be a subject that is best kept within mil/LE purview so they don't publish it for public consumption.

Consider this: Fighting is 100% about safety - that's a concept that eludes many people. If you want to work as a team then it's all an extrapolation of that. Here's the evolution of fighting as a team:
1) If you can't train individually without injuring yourself then you can't even get to square one.
2) If you can't fight without injuring yourself then you still can't effectively fight.
3) If you can fight as an individual but you injure your team mates then you are not an effective member of the team.
4) If you can effectively engage adversaries while maintaining your own safety and the safety of your team mates then you are an effective member of the team.

I hope, at this point, you can see that the most important part is the safety rules - let's take that into action: If your team has a solid set of universally understood safety rules then they can move about the AO at-will engaging adversaries. The more ways you have of maintaining safety, the more ways of neutralizing an adversary you will have available to you. You'll need to master this fundamental concept no matter whose methods you employ.

I am completely unaware of any decent training videos regarding the use of night vision. They've all been garbage... well, Chappy's was OK as an introductory video. The books I've read have been of very limited value, also. If you need an introduction to night vision then you should look at the Night Vision Forum here on arfcom. We just ran a "Do's and Don'ts of NVG" thread that covers the basics and you can do Q&A in the forum. There are several good posters there.
Link Posted: 2/27/2017 11:55:17 AM EDT
[#5]
TUSC at DARC, probably best to do a carbine course and pistol course there first,  but you can still take a lot from it.
Link Posted: 2/27/2017 9:50:03 PM EDT
[#6]
Thanks for the input..I'll check out those videos too
Link Posted: 4/1/2017 1:48:32 PM EDT
[#7]
This is a really tough one.  Hard to find any good source material on this stuff.  But, for starters, look at Mosby's "Reluctant Partisan" vol 1, as a start point.  It's pricey but basically self-published so that's just what it costs.  Probably the best single reference point to get started.  From there you can explore the various references he provides.  

Then there's Gunny Poole's "Last 100 Yards" which is the Jarhead take on things.  Lots of good material in there as well as further references.

Then there's the FM's.   Dry as hell, and hard if you don't have any background, but the basics are there.  SH21-76,  The Ranger Handbook.  THE bible.  The next two are also small unit T,T,P's: FM7-93 Long-Range Surveillance, and FM7-92 Recon Platoon and Squad.  These are more suited to small teams operating independently, versus the "Big Army" pubs.

If you can find a local vet, who is willing to skool you up on this stuff, it will help out quite a bit.  A lot of it is common sense but there's lots of tips of the trade that aren't in the manuals.

NV, well that's even harder.  No good source on that.  Read up on here for starters, then go out and practice with it.  One of the best sources, a little dated but good T,T,P's on patrolling with NV is Clancy's "Clear and Present Danger".

If you really want to get into this stuff, I would highly recommend you go to a SUT class if at all possible.  Just patrolling dry or blank fire will teach you the basic movements n such.  Live fire is the final exam.  NV live fire is the shit.  

But a word of caution.  I would highly recommend going to a good trainer, if for nothing else, just to see what good safety measures look like.  It's more than just the basic knowledge; it's knowing how to safely conduct live fire training exercises.
Link Posted: 4/4/2017 9:53:43 AM EDT
[#8]
One problem is that many states have laws restricting paramilitary training or groups, Tennessee's does not appear to be too onerous, as they only restrict if if it does done with the intent of committing a crime.  But instructors are likely to be hesitant to train someone they haven't worked with before, because they don't want the training they provide to be used for criminal purposes.  In addition, some of the tactics and procedures used in small unit actions are considered sensitive information because we don't want the bad guys knowing how the good guys will act.  There are also Federal laws on the subject, and groups that conduct such training are highly apt to be infiltrated by Federal agents, and there HAVE been cases of such groups being targeted for publicity reasons, with the illegal weapons or explosives being supplied by the informants, without the knowledge or consent of the "militia members" who later get prosecuted for them (at least one case in Georgia prior to the 1996 Olympics like this).

That said, one of the absolute most important things to practice for small unit operations is strict muzzle and trigger finger control.  You need to be able to move without flagging your partner(s) with your muzzle, and you need to have well-rehearsed immediate action drills for different scenarios.  It takes a LOT of training time to get good at those drills, especially how to clear buildings.  Even something as relatively simple as a two man buddy rush on a target requires careful training and rehearsal, it's easy to get excited and cross into your partner's field of fire without realizing it.  
Link Posted: 4/10/2017 9:59:14 PM EDT
[#9]
Max Velocity Tactical in WV runs some excellent team tactics courses, including CQB, light infantry combat team tactics (both live fire) and Force on Force with UTM Man Marker rounds. I've been three times and highly recommend it.

He also runs a night firing class for NODS users. Max does a road show and will come to GA in October. Although it's not listed, he is supposed to add on the NODF night firing class to that course.
Link Posted: 4/20/2017 8:05:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Just to hit this again, I want to re-iterate the importance of safety in this kind of training.  When you go from your own advanced individual training and move into the realm of basic team training, the danger goes up exponentially.  Guys in the military train with their teams on a daily basis for months, sometimes even years in the upper echelons.  There is a certain level of trust and commitment (not to mention competence) that permits this level of training to be done safely.  When you are doing this on your own, oftentimes you are missing this depth of institutional training and awareness.  You are thrown together with a group of strangers whom you barely know, and are expected to perform safely as a team, within a very short time span.  

Back in the stone ages, everyone was a vet.  So there was a common bond there, even if you just met the guy.  Nowadays, you get guys with all sorts of backgrounds; some with a clue, who work hard at learning to be a team player, others who are so arrogant they refuse to cooperate.  Then you have the instructors.  Some are very competent at what they do, or did.  Some are gifted teachers.  Some are even both.  So you have a very big challenge of trying to impart the basics of team training in a very compressed time line.  If you have some background in the subject matter, you will probably be able to come up to speed.  If you don't, you will probably not be able to do this stuff on your own, without direct supervision.  Even with all the buffoonery on line, as seen in other threads here, I'm surprised more people are not seriously hurt or killed in shooting accidents.  I won't call it training.  That being said, there's no reason to temp fate yourself.  

If you are going to attempt small unit tactics training, I would highly recommend going to someone that not only knows their stuff, but can usually teach it safely as well.  That usually means someone from SF.  If you look at Mosby's book, you will see a goldmine of training templates, which have been used very successfully to train everybody from goat-herders to arf-comers.  I think this crawl, walk, run progression, (actually dry, blank, live fire)  as used by the US military is probably the best template for success in this sort of training.  There are others who do different things, but in general, this is the template I would use.  

Beyond the basic formalized training you may do, we get into the realm of follow-up or continuation training.  Here is where you truly learn the stuff, by getting the reps in.  It takes a team of guys with a lot of dedication and hard work to get to a basic team standard with, you guessed it, safety.  And this may be the hardest part of all.  It's hard enough on your own; with just 4 guys, it goes up to extremely difficult.  But definitely worth all bullshit.
Link Posted: 4/20/2017 8:11:03 AM EDT
[#11]
Too soon to point out "Mission drives Gear and Training?"
Link Posted: 4/20/2017 5:06:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Never too soon to point out your estimate of the sit, METL, and the training plans to get there.  Not to mention operational SOP, Troop Leading Steps, 5 para orders, etc.  Mosby covers this in great detail.  

So yeah I guess it would help to know exactly what you think might happen and what you need to do to deal with it.  Beyond just the basics of SUT you need to tailor your training to your sit.

Good point.
Link Posted: 4/27/2017 11:04:10 AM EDT
[#13]
I highly recommend Max Velocity Tactical Night Firing

If you are new to helmet mounted night vision, this class will immerse you into the night. You will zero your IR laser, work on your pressure switch while engaging targets.  Then you will be placed into a scenario on hilly terrain that will allow you to test all the information that was given out.
Link Posted: 4/29/2017 9:25:03 AM EDT
[#14]
Agreed.  This training class is probably one of the best you will find outside of the military.  You will do a live-fire night assault, under NV, on an enemy base camp.  Max uses a training template from the Brits, which is different from ours, but if the people are switched on, is very effective.  It is very well suited to the compressed time-frame we have to operate under.

But again, very robust safety measures, including IR IFF are absolutely required here.
Link Posted: 4/29/2017 1:56:34 PM EDT
[#15]
TNVC also does low-light/no-light training (firearms related).
Link Posted: 4/29/2017 2:59:16 PM EDT
[#16]
Link up with John Lovell down at telluric group in Ga. He's a good source for NVD training.
Link Posted: 5/22/2017 8:23:07 PM EDT
[#17]
Reiterate the recommendation for Max Velocity Tactical both for Small Unit tactics and Night Training.
Max gets the Light Infantry religion and is very competent at teaching it.
Link Posted: 5/24/2017 9:54:11 AM EDT
[#18]
No way in Hell I would just "get some buddies together and watch some videos and do Team Tactics". That's how people wind up with extra holes. You need quality instruction to even think about doing this kind of thing.
Link Posted: 5/25/2017 1:08:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No way in Hell I would just "get some buddies together and watch some videos and do Team Tactics". That's how people wind up with extra holes. You need quality instruction to even think about doing this kind of thing.
View Quote
This!

Would suggest that those not trained in this stuff practice with airsoft or triple-checked dry weapons.
Link Posted: 5/25/2017 1:19:43 PM EDT
[#20]
H.J. Poole's The Tiger's Way: A U.S. Private's Best Chance for Survival and Suarez's The Tactical Advantage also have some team tactic info
Link Posted: 5/25/2017 1:40:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Too soon to point out "Mission drives Gear and Training?"
View Quote
Never too soon.

Fire-and-Maneuver theory revolves around security.

If someone moves, they need security.  They either provide security for themselves or have someone else do it for them.
You either maneuver to a position or the enemy.  Period.

You're probably going to have someone pipe up in here about shoot-move-communicate, eventually... so I may as well do it.
Think of that in reverse order, but add "think".  

Think-Communicate-Move-Shoot.
Even indoors.  Especially indoors.  With security.

As far as night vision training goes, there's nothing to it but to do it.  You basically just have to get used to the systems you're using.
Like idontknow said (in different words): training with systems is driven by your mission set.  

Gear simply assists solving the problem, it's not the solution to the problem.
Link Posted: 6/14/2017 10:03:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This is a really tough one.  Hard to find any good source material on this stuff.  But, for starters, look at Mosby's "Reluctant Partisan" vol 1, as a start point.  It's pricey but basically self-published so that's just what it costs.  Probably the best single reference point to get started.  From there you can explore the various references he provides.  

Then there's Gunny Poole's "Last 100 Yards" which is the Jarhead take on things.  Lots of good material in there as well as further references.

Then there's the FM's.   Dry as hell, and hard if you don't have any background, but the basics are there.  SH21-76,  The Ranger Handbook.  THE bible.  The next two are also small unit T,T,P's: FM7-93 Long-Range Surveillance, and FM7-92 Recon Platoon and Squad.  These are more suited to small teams operating independently, versus the "Big Army" pubs.

If you can find a local vet, who is willing to skool you up on this stuff, it will help out quite a bit.  A lot of it is common sense but there's lots of tips of the trade that aren't in the manuals.

NV, well that's even harder.  No good source on that.  Read up on here for starters, then go out and practice with it.  One of the best sources, a little dated but good T,T,P's on patrolling with NV is Clancy's "Clear and Present Danger".

If you really want to get into this stuff, I would highly recommend you go to a SUT class if at all possible.  Just patrolling dry or blank fire will teach you the basic movements n such.  Live fire is the final exam.  NV live fire is the shit.  

But a word of caution.  I would highly recommend going to a good trainer, if for nothing else, just to see what good safety measures look like.  It's more than just the basic knowledge; it's knowing how to safely conduct live fire training exercises.    
View Quote
Without hands-on experience with a tight-knit group of people under guidance from a professional, none of the above manual references will make much sense, and you will walk away scrathcing your head with more questions than answers, as well as a lot of incorrect assumptions.

The tactics diagrams in FM 7-8, SH 21-76, and FM 7-92 don't go anywhere near the level of detail you get in a good unit.

Most 11Bs and 0311s even have a very limited understanding of dismounted SUTs nowadays because critical infantry skills have been lost in vehicle-centric deployments against insurgents in mostly urban and medieval peasant mountain village terrain.  Load bearing equipment has taken a  major turn for the worse by being focused on armor, rather than carrying mags and frags, sacrificing maneuverability for limited ballistic protection of the torso.

Cementing the building blocks of individual gun-handling skills, physical fitness, and study of micro terrain, should preceed attending an SUT course, which should preceed NV SUT.
Link Posted: 6/14/2017 10:50:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:...Without hands-on experience with a tight-knit group of people under guidance from a professional... you will walk away scratching your head with more questions than answers...
View Quote


    This.
    Link Posted: 6/19/2017 8:18:45 PM EDT
    [#24]
    Order of skills before team tactics:
    -marksmanship from various positions
    -weapons manipulation skills
    -some semblance of fitness
    -use of cover/concealment/bounding
    -basic situational awareness/PID

    Without the first two down pat, you're going to run out of mental processing capacity. Without the next two, you won't be an effective team mate. Without the last, you're a liability.

    I would highly recommend Max Velocity Tactical's Combat Team Tactics.
    Link Posted: 8/6/2017 10:14:41 AM EDT
    [#25]
    dude has to start somewhere. i dont know of any videos. start slow, run dry.
    find a few dudes that have the same mindset and dedication to put in the time. this is the hardest part. lol.

    most guys i know have a hard enough time getting to the range a few times a year. lol.
    Link Posted: 10/22/2017 4:52:54 PM EDT
    [#26]
    Going back here for additional comments.  As I said, it's a difficult proposition.  The comments about FM's not making much sense without any practical experience are true, but it will give you some familiarity with basic concepts and terminology.  You gotta start somewhere.  Unless you enlist, as one wag stated early on, you're not going to get any exposure to the tactical world; some amount of self-paced learning is gonna be involved.  One of the best references I believe you will find are Mosby's books.  "The Reluctant Partisan", vol. I covers individual training subjects, and SUT as performed in a rural setting.  This is the classic type of training that you might need as part of a group out in the boonies.  "TRP" vol. II covers SUT as performed in an urban setting.  So depending on your setting, this volume may actually be much more valuable to you.  The last volume is "Forging the Hero" which deals with how to survive and thrive the collapse of a society.  These three books are a great starting point.  You have a former Ranger and SF dude explain things from the FM's in a manner that someone who was never in can understand.

    And yeah, it is a progression.  The way it was done in my day was:  basic individual training, basic team training, advanced individual training, advanced team training.  In this case, NV would fall into advanced individual training, and then advanced team training.  Mosby's books have a pretty decent training plans in them.  He guides you through basic rifle marksmanship, then basic SUT (rural), basic pistol marksmanship, then basic SUT (urban).  Once these areas are mastered, then you could repeat them with NV.  

    The comment about recent vets not being up to speed on dismounted SUT.  Sadly that's true.  I find it ironic that my skill sets, which were once considered out-dated by some, are now coming back around to be relevant.  I was trained by Vietnam vets is dismounted patrolling, in jungles and forests around the world.  But then again, depending on your location, a recent vet might have a thing or two you could use.  So it all depends on the AO of your small team.  A lot of guys talk shit about bugging out to a rural location, therefore their training revolves around that setting.  But truth be known, I think a lot of guys are stuck in urban areas and will have to learn how to survive and thrive there.  So TRP vol II  might actually be of more use to you.  

    I would only add take a hard look at your current location, and determine what the odds are if you have to survive in place, versus bug out to a retreat location.  By establishing this first, you can then tailor your training to the environment you will likely be in.  Once this is done, then you can add NV to the mix.
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