I am making this post in response to it coming up again in another GD thread, putting it in this forum in hopes for a serious discussion.

The Pat McNamara safe to reload thing (if you are not familiar)

Previous to this video (I saw it years ago) I had always safed coming off the shoulder to change positions/move.  I view this as a critical habit when shooting dynamically.  If you don't shoot and move it's not a concern IMO.  It came up on ARF a few months back and became a GD shit show apparently.

My shooting time has been diminished for the last year, so I have to make more quality use of the time I have.  Today I tried to see what it's gonna take to put this in my hard drive. video Basically just shooting a pretty standard drill with a reload. I can tell you it's gonna take a while. Before I go back to the range there will be a lot of dry handling.  

It comes down to...

A) safe on when not pointed at the target

OR

B) safe on when weapon is not shouldered (or when not actively shooting)

Have you ever noticed in the pictures of soldiers in Viet Nam, no one has their finger alongside the trigger?

I engage the safety when moving from position to position and make an attempt to when doing emergency reloads (but dont get hung up if I dont get it engaged)

I put the safety on when I'm done shooting, if it has one that is of course... Otherwise finger off the trigger is my safety. 

My process is to apply the safety whenever I break cheek-weld.

I will admit, I usually do not go safe when resolving a malfunction.

Have to admit, im pretty bad when it comes to putting the weapon back on safe while it is still loaded but I break cheek weld.  When I reload(and I almost never do quick reloads, usually involves me dropping the mag and BSing) I always put it on safe though.

Of the available choices, I have to go with: “Muh trigger finger is my safety.”

I probably don’t understand the question; but since it is in the “General Training Discussion” section, I am assuming the question is not necessarily AR-15 specific.  

I try to operate all firearms using the same basic manual-of-arms.

When I first started taking defensive firearms classes, I used a Browning High Power pistol.  The safety came off when the pistol left the holster and was re-engaged just prior to re-holstering.  Now that I use a Glock, the safety is always off.  My trigger finger (and muzzle control)  is my safety.

I try to operate rifles the same way I operate pistols.  

With an AK-47, the safety comes off after the rifle has been un-slung and my dominate hand has acquired a master grip (with my trigger finger in register, outside the trigger guard, along the frame).  I do not re-engage the safety until just prior to breaking master grip and re-slinging the rifle.  My trigger finger (and muzzle control) is my safety in the interim.  I use traditional WWII style slings on my AKs.

With an AR-15, the safety comes off after the rifle is in both hands and my dominate hand has acquired a master grip, usually as I am coming up on target (with my trigger finger in register, out side the trigger guard, along the frame).  I do not re-engage the safety until just prior to rolling the rifle onto its side to (visually ensure the bolt is fully closed and) close the dust cover.  My trigger finger (and muzzle control) is my safety in the interim.  Since I use Blue Force Gear VCAS slings on my AR-15s, I simply drop the rifle to re-sling it (once the dust cover has been closed).

Again, I may not comprehend the question, but I can not come up with a good reason to treat an AR-15's safety differently than I treat a pistol or AK.  My rifle training is very limited, having only taken rifle classes from John Farnam and Pat Rogers.

The question is "when do you engage the safety" you could conceivably move to a new position when you have a master grip.  Do you go on safe when moving?

AK vs AR- that's an ergonomics thing if you think it's necessary to have your safety on at any given moment with the AR, it would apply to other weapons.

When are you "done shooting" is the question.  Are you done shooting when you are reloading?  Are you done shooting while changing to a new position? Are you done shooting if you come off target?

That is about where I am at right now.  Coming off sights (breaking cheek weld) to move or change positions is automatic safety for me.

The question is "when do you engage the safety" you could conceivably move to a new position when you have a master grip. Do you go on safe when moving?

I do not engage the safety when (or prior to) moving.  I only engage the safety if I am going to re-holster the pistol or re-sling the rifle.  If the firearm will remain in my hands (master grip is not compromised), the safety remains off.

Per John Farnam’s doctrine; if you are not in the act of shooting, you should be moving.  You are not allowed to fire more than 4 rounds from any given location prior to moving.  A fifth shot from any given location will result in counseling during an exercise or immediate failure during testing.  So yes, I move a lot while the safety is dis-engaged.

AK vs AR- that's an ergonomics thing if you think it's necessary to have your safety on at any given moment with the AR, it would apply to other weapons.

I agree with the above statement.  If something is a good idea (or mandatory) for the AR, you should also figure out a way to do it with an AK or pistol.  If I need to engage an AR’s safety prior to movement, I should not be allowed to move with a Glock in my hand either.

P.S.  I hope it goes without saying that there are administrative reasons other than holstering or re-slinging that call for engagement of a safety.  The basic rule of thumb I have been taught is: the safety only needs to be engaged if your master grip is going to be compromised.

P.P.S.  I do not have much heartburn with the way anybody does anything as long as it is (relatively) safe.  If you pick a method that makes sense to you and practice it until it becomes automatic, you will do well in life.  Since I am an adjunct instructor for John Farman, using Farnam's methods as my default methods makes my life easier.  It doesn't hurt that I believe what Farnam teaches is reasonable and effective.

My rifle is on Safe until I come up with it and get sights on a target, shots fired, then safe when finished shooting and checked for other "threats."

Scenario 1 - If during that course of action movement needs to occur, safety goes on when breaking cheekweld, move to position, safety comes off again when raising sights to engage target.

Scenario 2 - If during that course of action a reload needs to occur, I am guilty of not engaging the safety 100% of the time to perform a reload if I am static while doing so. I am trying to work it into my movements now, and am slowly getting better at it.

Scenario 3 - If during that course of action a malfunction occurs(in this case my definition is something that a simple "tap-rack" will not cure), engage safety before investigating cause of the malfunction, preferably after having moved to cover if that is an option. To clarify, if I perform a simple tap-rack I will not engage the safety, if the malfunction requires further problem solving the safety will be engaged before I go into that.

safety comes off when the gun comes up for the first time. If that's in a stage it will stay off until I'm done with the rifle. If it's in the house it means it will go back on when the shooting stops. I shoot while moving a lot, so I don't want to be flipping the damn thing all day.

As long as you keep the muzzle in a safe direction and don't point it at anything you're not willing to shoot, a finger is good enough for what I need to do.



pretty much same with 1911s I carry and compete with. Safety off as it comes out of the holster, back on as it goes back in. Otherwise don't point guns at shit you don't want to shoot and you'll never have a problem.

The answer is "it depends".

If all you're doing is stationary fire on a flat range, the weapon goes on fire when you begin your engagement, and remains on fire until all targets have been shot.  At the end of the engagement, your weapon goes back on safe.

If doing movement in depth or lateral on a flat range, the same rules apply.  On fire, complete engagement, on safe.

If moving with apparatuses, you go on safe when moving from cover to cover or when behind cover.

If conducting CQB, your weapon goes on fire at the first contact (whether before the breach or inside) and remains that way until the room has been dominated.  It then goes on safe before conducting priorities of work.

You also always attempt to place your weapon on safe before transitioning to your secondary, whether from bolt lock or malfunction.


There really is no excuse for being too lazy to put your shit on safe when not firing

I found this thread through "Active Topics" as l don't usually peruse the training forums. And have never taken a training course, military or civilian.

Now that said l bought my first AR in 1979 and learned quickly that the gun's selector and grip are so ergonomic that l quickly taught myself to engage the safety as soon as the gun comes off the shoulder.  And disengage the safety as it's coming up to the shoulder.  

It is so second nature there are many times l have to look to be sure I've engaged the safety.  I just don't remember consciously doing it.  

Without much practice anyone can learn this to this level.  But l have no idea how or what professional trainers recommend.

Usually, the safety comes off as I transition from a ready position to a firing/aiming position, and goes back on after the firearm goes back to a ready position.  I'm sure I'm guilty of errors here and there, as I don't train as often as I should.
(Emergency reloads, immediate action malfunction clearing, etc., where I'm trying to get the firearm back to firing ASAP does not fit under my idea of "ready position" here...engaging the safety there seems like extra movement, but I'm open to argument.)

The safety is on, till you are on/in your sights, a target/threat that you want to engage. With good fundamental safety practice, it will become second nature to disengage when needed, and re-engage when not. Any other practice of the use of the safety is irrelevant, accidents happen, and this is just another layer to keep everyone safe.

Pick a scenario, if you need your rifle to defend your/a life: bad guy next to your kids bed room, neighbor walking the dog, over the berm at the range, your partner behind/in-front of you (yes lots of ankles get shot by friendly’s)

Then add: moving, mud, fixing a malfunction, slipping, kids toys, darkness, adrenaline, dogs piss, maybe your own piss…

You let one slip and do the math.

By the time you can identify a threat, place sights on it, make sure it’s an actual threat, and ready to pull the trigger, the safety is a fraction of that time to disengage.

Several people have misread/misunderstood the question.

I agree 100% that any movement off the shoulder (which is usually a precurser to movement) it goes on safe.

BUT, do you go on safe to do an empty reload?

Sorry to stray off subject, but when were you in the 506th, and which Battalion?

There was only one Battalion when I was in the Army, 1st, 88-89 Camp Greaves Korea

I gotcha.

There are two battalions now. I was in 1-506 from 2011-2015 at Ft. Campbell.