Originally Posted By S-1:
BTW... Why the fuck does the USMC still teach to blade towards a target?

Originally Posted By jeffers_mz:
At an EAG Tactical class this spring, 3 Infantrymen on tour in Afghanistan somehow got 7 days leave in the US. They spent one of those days driving to this class, one day driving back to whereever they came from, and three days in the class. They had to purchase thier own ammunition for the class. The class fees were paid by them, not by DoD.

Their comments were eye-opening. They immediately recognized the advantage of all they were taught in this class, noted that basic training and Army drills did not begin to address these issues, and left class knowing that what they had learned there, above and beyond anything they had been exposed to thru military training, had made a huge difference to their ability to survive a firefight, back in Afgganistan, where they were supposed to return a few days later.

Every component error discussed by the OP was also addressed in the class, and every conclusion drawn by the OP is identical with the class instructor's conclusions, as taught during the class. Just reading the original post had me hearing Pat Rogers, standing behind me while I was firing on the 7 yard line, chewing great holes in my ass for fucking up, the exact same way the OP concludes he fucked up.

If soldiers on a 7 day pass out of a hot warzone can spend their own time, money, and ammunition on a training class, and leave knowing they not only got their money back out in benefit, but also thinks they now stands much better odds of surviving, even winning a firefight, that is expert opinion enough for me.

Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Wow. I guess some of us just assume certain things are taught in military.

Originally Posted By Aimless:
It's pretty sobering how often you go to carbine classes and find military personnel-and I mean rifleman types, not motor pool guys, saying they hadn't been exposed to stuff that most guys like me (ie life long civilians that go to these classes) would assume are basics that everyone in the military knows.

Originally Posted By Submariner:


It's tough to square up given the length of pull on an M16A4 stock. That stock (and A2 sights) were foisted on the Marine Corps by the Rifle Team, according to Pat Rogers (and others.) These same folks have a huge impact on marksmanship training. Unfortunately, there is more to gunfighting than just marksmanship. Mindset and manipulation count, too. It's also tough, without training and a great deal of practice, to use an ACO/RCO in close.



I had the same thoughts as those high-lighted in blue. And they were from my first EAG class back in June of 2003, several months after Paul G. had been wounded. The TTPs existed then and were being used in part of the Marine Corps, e.g. First Force Reconnaissance Co. and S.O.T.G. They were not at that time, however, making their way to the Lance Coolie 0311 who wins the wars.

Those soldiers must have thought paying Pat for training is much better than paying a life insurance company.

They are probably right.

Originally Posted By jeffers_mz:
No operator here, but I have additional corroboration to add.

At an EAG Tactical class this spring, 3 Infantrymen on tour in Afghanistan somehow got 7 days leave in the US. They spent one of those days driving to this class, one day driving back to whereever they came from, and three days in the class. They had to purchase thier own ammunition for the class. The class fees were paid by them, not by DoD.

Their comments were eye-opening. They immediately recognized the advantage of all they were taught in this class, noted that basic training and Army drills did not begin to address these issues, and left class knowing that what they had learned there, above and beyond anything they had been exposed to thru military training, had made a huge difference to their ability to survive a firefight, back in Afghanistan, where they were supposed to return a few days later.

Every component error discussed by the OP was also addressed in the class, and every conclusion drawn by the OP is identical with the class instructor's conclusions, as taught during the class. Just reading the original post had me hearing Pat Rogers, standing behind me while I was firing on the 7 yard line, chewing great holes in my ass for fucking up, the exact same way the OP concludes he fucked up.

If soldiers on a 7 day pass out of a hot warzone can spend their own time, money, and ammunition on a training class, and leave knowing they not only got their money back out in benefit, but also thinks they now stands much better odds of surviving, even winning a firefight, that is expert opinion enough for me.

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

As Aimless mentioned, it's not at all uncommon to see .mil guys show up in a class and be absolutely flabbergasted that they hadn't heard anything presented before. I've seen even SF/SOF guys show up and say "Dude...why aren't we training this way?"

Originally Posted By jeffers_mz:

Then you can probably hear Pat grinding his teeth, just like I can, because neither you, me, the OP, nor anyone else in this thread has yet mentioned one of the first rules this guy broke....no tac reload after the mag dump into the first bad guy.

Sorry, Pat, but a new drill is henceforth SOP on range trips, I'll call them "sevens and twos". Seven rounds center mass, tac reload to mag #2, move to "new contact", then either two COM and no tac reload, or two COM + one to the brainpan, no tac reload, repeat till both mags empty out, just to put me in the habit of freshening up after serious expenditures, and keep me away from tac reloads after only firing a few.

Improvements welcome.

Edit...on second thought, that's going to be ammo intensive, improvement is possible. One mag marked with duct tape, one without. Two rounds COM, tac reload,then two COM and no reload, keeps me thinking about the situation and whether it is time for a reload after each instance of fire, runs thru more mag changes per round expended, and put ammo to better use too.

Additional improvements still welcome.

Originally Posted By Templar223:
Bump to keep out of archive for a while.