Geographic reference - Rochester, NY region


Yes, I'm the guy that IM'd Aimless yesterday.





For the tldr crowd:





I had my personal canary-in-the-coal-mine this week. I feel the rules have changed.

1. If you have ANY FIREARM in New York State get the contact information for a local firearms attorney TODAY.



2. Run a mental drill on how you would handle being contacted by law enforcement regarding your firearms purchases.



3. Run a mental drill on how you would handle law enforcement showing up at your door with a warrant. I'm not talking about fighting back here - more along the lines of what is in plain sight and do your family members also have that lawyers contact info from #1 above?

---

Let's also get this out of the way:

• Don't talk to the police dumb-ass!



• Get a lawyer idiot!



• WHY the HELL do you live in NY?



• FUAC!



• 87!

---

So hopefully at this point you are reading for content. I'm not looking to argue gun control, SAFE ACT details, or what LEO's can/can't do. There are enough of those threads. I'm sharing this as a cautionary tale. Hopefully you will run your own mental exercises as you read on. I kinda feel like I'm writing to Penthouse Forum - you know, the "I never thought it would happen to me, but the other day...".





3:20pm Monday 12/7/2015


   I received a cell phone call from a local phone number. Normally I'd send it to voicemail because I didn't recognize it, but the contacts on the phone are messed up and I am expecting some work on the property, so I answer. A woman identifies herself by name as a New York State Police Investigator. She is calling me in regards to an ongoing investigation into Jackson Guns and Ammo (now closed FFL in Henrietta, NY, Monroe county) for SAFE ACT violations. She has details from a form 4473 on a transfer I made there after 1/15/2013. She asked if I still had the firearm. I indicated I did, She said they needed to inspect it for compliance. She did say the investigation is focused on the dealer, not me. If my firearm is not compliant it will be seized as evidence but will eventually be returned after being made compliant.


   We agreed to meet at the NYSP Troop E barracks in Farmington the next day.  


   The call lasted 3:17





WHAT!?!?!?! I actually CAN hear you yelling at me on the internet ;-)





Here's the thing - I know something that you do not know (I am not left handed! -The Princess Bride).





WTF was I thinking?

1. Recon - what are they doing?



2. Knowing the time and place of the encounter - I don't really want to deal with a warrant at home. They couldn't get a warrant you say? Sure. Just like they couldn't get the 4473 right?



3. I would have survived having that firearm seized - it's not a great gun and it would result in a payday.

6:00pm Tuesday 12/8/2015


   I showed up at the Troop E barracks at the designated time with the long gun in a locked case and left it in my truck as discussed during the phone conversation. The Trooper on the desk let them know I was there and the two investigators came out to meet me. We went out to the truck and I had them handle the case, bringing it back inside to a conference room. I notice two long gun evidence boxes at the back - one open and empty, the other closed. I give them they key to unlock the case and describe the safe removal of the shotgun magazine. The magwell already had a nice big yellow blocker/chamber flag inserted. Did y'all just say what? Yeah, so did they. The firearm in question is a novelty firearm - the Crossfire Mk 1. More detail on it below. The short answer is that it is NOT SEMI-AUTOMATIC! There was a fair bit of conversation around it and one inspector did need to check the rules for a pistol grip rifle, but I was out of there within 15 minutes after my arrival. At all times the troopers were professional and courteous. I did get a business card before leaving.

---

So how did they get the 4473's?


   Does it really matter? They have them. It may be related to the (unrelated) civil seizure earlier.





Why your firearm?


   It is not well known. I believe it was flagged for being 5.56. It doesn't help that at least one site includes the phrase "selective fire" in the description. My caution on this is around the caliber, not the rarity. If there are business records out there that link you to AR/AK calibers for legal transactions in the past, they could haunt your future, This isn't just the firearms themselves - ammo, magazines, parts, etc. In my case the transaction was almost THREE years old!





Yes, when all is said and done I am still a dumb-ass. So please post any good Rochester area firearms lawyers to this thread for the benefit of everyone. If the firearm was semi-auto I would have taken a different path. In this case I thought it was silly and I rolled the dice.





Cheers!





PS - it was dark and they did not get a look at the back of the truck. There is a nice bio-hazard BFL on the tailgate!





The reference links I posted earlier:


http://nyfirearms.com/forums/laws-politics-firearms-self-defense-weapons/100740-scope-email-re-jackson-guns-investigation-safe-act-related.html


http://nyfirearms.com/forums/firearms-news/100518-jackson-gun-ammo-deep.html





The firearm in question:


http://www.thespecialistsltd.com/crossfire-mk1


The Crossfire Mk1 is a unique weapon in that it is a 12-gauge/5.56x45mm over/under, selective fire, repeating, pump action rifle/shotgun.




 

I was wondering what Aimless was talking about yesterday. Guess you answered my questions.

 What a shit show.

We need a thread (probably stickied here) with a list of good defense attorneys by region.

FUAC

That... is the strangest gun I have seen in a long time.

I would not recommend the Mk 1. It is pure novelty. I want to try some trap with it but that is about it.

The action is rough and clumsy. Most folks can't even figure out how to rack the slide.

Now for the obvious question...  At least obvious to me. How would they go about securing warrants to invade an individuals (and in this case multiple individuals) privacy given that the investigation is centered around a business? What judge will sign off on the door to door investigation only to find that they were unwarranted with probable cause in the first place? What judge,  even in NY will open themselves up to that?


Am I nuts for thinking that someone in NY is much more likely to be asked, and consequently deny access, then to be served with a warrant,  or am I way off?

That gun makes me go:





Did you tell them over the phone that it's not semi-auto, and therefore not regulated by the SAFE Act?

I told them it was pump and she indicated I would probably be ok, but they still wanted to check it. Why argue? It is big and black, it shoots 5.56, and it looks scary! I'm out about 45 minutes (so far, who knows what the future brings). That "selective fire" description on the web page, while accurate in that you can select which barrel to fire, could have gotten me a very special visit. Many LEOs are not firearms experts, arguing can take them to a defensive posture. That would be the part where I have a lawyer do it.



 

I guess it's good the only thing I bought from Jackson was a 10/30 .22 conversion mag, some sights, and a few other small items.  Never filled out any forms there.

I'm far from the "Am I being detained?!?!?", "No, I won't roll my window down for you, officer.  I can hear you fine." type of person.  I've never refused ID when being pulled over, or have given a cop a hard time (and despite having been pulled over many times, I've only actually been ticketed in a handful of well-warranted instances).  But I think when it comes to a phone call like this, "The gun in question is not semi-automatic, so the SAFE Act does not apply, and there is no need to check compliance on it." would be my answer.

Asking people to bring in guns for inspection, based solely on a generic gun dealer's website description, is nutty.

Wow, thanks for sharing the info.
But that is one ugly gun!

In my case I think they would need more for a warrant. The other links I posted reference rifles that were NY AWB (pre-SAFE) compliant that were received after the SAFE ACT was in place. There were specific provisions made for firearms ordered and paid for pre-SAFE to be allowed. The other links indicated that even paying for one of these after the SAFE ACT was in place is a problem. There were also references to outright non-compliance. No idea on that. They did not seem to be focused on the current state of compliance, but instead the state when the FFL delivered it. I think the harder point is how do you prove the dealer did (or did not) modify a firearm to SAFE compliance before delivery?



I think denying access is the best path. I didn't feel it needed to go to that point this time. Remember that you need to discuss this with your household members as ANY of them may be asked or gently pressured for access.



That's where we need the list of lawyers ;-)



 

So what should you do if you left the gun at your relative's house in Florida?

I would be free to say that and call that lawyer from #1 ;-)



Just make sure everyone in the household has the same answer.



 

When I had some guns I wanted to sell off, I spoke to the owner of a gunshop over the border in PA to see if he was interested in buying.  They were not SAFE Act compliant, so I couldn't legally sell them in NY.  But I had left them at a friend's house in PA on my move from SC to NY, so no NY laws were broken at any time.  When I told the owner about my situation, he got skittish, and said he would have to talk to his ATF agent.  ATF agent told him that technically, I was breaking the law, being that me leaving my guns at a friend's house in a state that I was not (and never was) a resident of, could be considered a transfer of ownership between parties not of the same state, and of course, without an FFL doing said transfer, that is illegal.  Then I suddenly remembered that I had left the guns with my friend in SC (where I was a resident) before I moved back to NY.  Damn memory is slipping.

OK, storage locker out of state then.  No transfer of ownership issues and you can show them a receipt if necessary.  NYSP has no authority in PA, so...

Yeah, storage facility would work.  I obviously had no way to get a receipt in my situation so it was off the table.

How many people, including those on this board, kept saying "don't rock the boat" with AWB v1.0.


Well folks, here you go.

Stalin would be proud of the NYSP

Is this the gun store where you ask the guy for the "Special" and the back wall flips around to a secret room that leads to the basement where they sell PENGUINS!

That's not fair to Josef.... He never even attempted to hide his intentions. He was as straight a shooter as they came...

Fuck Andy

Is it accurate to say that so far the only 4473s that have been investigated are ones initiated after 1/15/13?  

That was your situation, right TeamDoh?  You did the transfer of that hideous weapon after the passage of unSAFE, right?

Just curious if they are backchecking all the 4473s from Jackson for unSAFE compliance, even the ones prior to unSAFE.

They're probably checking all firearms from that store on those dates to make sure everything matches. The theory probably is that if the dealer was shady in selling unsafe firearms, he may have been shady in sell  others not under unsafe. Perfect excuse to threaten the buyers and violate rights at the same time.

I like the way you think.  They build a 10 foot wall, you bring an 11 foot ladder.

Correct. In their current investigation they are looking at post 1/15/13 compliance.

Since I do not know how they got the 4473's, it is unclear if they have additional before that date.

As to future investigations, who knows?



 

If an escaped female inmate with multiple convictions for drugs and theft,  whom you've never met,  shows up at Ontario County Court and requests a Restraining Order against you, she will get it.

If Troop E shows up at Ontario County Court or Farmington Town Court requesting a warrant for a naked monkey shaped like a Delorean said to be in your possession, they will get that warrant.

I suspect most counties are not much different.

Damnit.  They saw me in my costume?!  



 

While you could be right here, I would still like to think that a judge would hesitate to give such a broad search net without fear of repercussions against localities and municipalities. I was always led to believe that warrants are issued in a very narrow scope on purpose,  to limit liability and such.  

But then again my expertise is not in law; just food, barbecue, Russian bullets and women, Sambo, Judo, Irish whiskey and women, and bad ethnic jokes...

What repercussions?    LE and judges have immunity, and in many cases so do municipalities.  

So basically it's easier for them to harass you and disrupt your life than to do 5 minutes research.  Got it.

"You don't need more than 10 rungs to climb a wall!!!" - Andy Cuomo

I completely get that you were on top of this situation and confident that the gun was legal, but make no mistake, you were a suspect in a criminal investigation.  Moreover, you were essentially interrogated.  Also remember, the cops can lie and do.



This can be handled respectfully while protecting yourself.  Unless they were a totally uninvolved witness, I would never send a friend of client to talk to the police without being accompanied and I would want to know as much about the situation as possible beforehand.  Moreover, I would want all the details on the sale of that gun and I would want to figure out if it was in any possible way or configuration illegal.  You have constitutional rights for a reason.



When I get calls like yours I simply say, "I know that you will understand that I won't be able to give you a statement or let you inspect anything without conferring with my attorney first.  Please give me your name and contact number and I will have my attorney call you back in the next couple of days."  Then, and this is where people really mess this whole venture up and start talking their ass into jail, you get the cop talking, you engage them with questions but provide no relevant information yourself, pretend like you're going to have an "off the record" conversation with them. "So what should I tell my attorney that it is you need from me?"  "Yes, yes, etc. etc. and what is this investigation in connection with?  How is it that you think I am involved?"  At this point they're basically salivating at the thought that you're about to spill the beans in conversation and that the whole lawyer comment was for show.  Eventually, usually after giving some important details, but pretty soon, they'll try to ask you a question, the question you dodged earlier by referencing your lawyer.  At that point, they're done being pumped for information and you'll just have to say, "As I said earlier I would really feel more comfortable talking to my attorney before saying anything, but I appreciate you bringing me up to speed on the situation.  I will call my attorney asap, so you should hear from us soon."



For big points, you can have a pre-existing relationship with an attorney and just refer them directly to their number.



You're just one dumb cop thinking your gun is illegal from being arrested, and trust me, the ride can mess up your day.  Better to have someone there who can be outraged on your behalf and have some credibility (in their eyes) when explaining why they are retards for arresting you.  



Once you put them in contact with your attorney, they can have the conversation to the effect of "based on what I know you (the cops) know about this gun, no reasonable person would believe that it could be illegal."

Is it possible that this investigation is in regards to weapons that Jacksons dealth with? I believe they were shut down for tax problems.

It seems pretty clear that they were investigating the gun store.

Unless you want to assume that the state police are mind bogglingly incompetent. A five second google search shows that this rifle is not semi-automatic, and while every statie may not be perfectly versed in the safe act, you can be sure that they all know that pump, bolt, lever or other manual actions are not affected by the law. And if there is more than one statie involved, then the odds of them not knowing that approach absolute zero.

It seems that they were trying to find evidence that the store sold "assault weapons" under false model names...it's the only thing that makes sense.

Although, if guys think I'm wrong, I'm totally on board with the idea that the state police are complete imbeciles who can't be bothered to do a 5 second google search.

Don't forget that these investigators have bosses, too, and they need to show them that they have been working hard.  So, what looks like you've been working harder: "I googled the model and it's pump-action, so not further action was taken" or "I had the buyer come in and make a statement, and we took some pictures, but since it was verified to be pump-action, we did not confiscate it."  Might also extend a fairly easy assignment: read form, call buyer, meet buyer, keep/release weapon, repeat ...

I had Jackson transfer a couple of things for me.  Bought one item directly from him (not a rifle).  No calls so far.

 
i wonder how your cop status will effect your status in this investigation in comparison to regular folk

Sounds like they are trying to build a case against Jackson Guns and not the gun owners.  There is probably a reason why the NYSP are calling ahead rather than just showing up at your door.  Generally, the police don't give suspects the opportunity to tamper with evidence--they tend to show up unannounced.

When has anyone ever heard of a judge getting reprimanded for signing unnecessary search warrants?  And when they do come to your door looking for your "guns" and you tell them they need a warrant, the investigator says "if thats how you want it to go?"  He then waits at your door until the warrant shows up.  Then they go through EVERYTHING.  The police have all the power. Dont argue, bin there, saw it, got the tshirt.  All your attorney can do is watch to make sure your arrest goes by the book.  

 

I would think that at most the case on appeal might get the evidence seized on that warrant suppressed.     Might.  I think a judge would have to be so far out of bounds to get censured, not going to happen too often.  Just my thoughts on that aspect.

My only paperwork purchase from Jackson post UNsafe was a Mosin. I guess that's not one they're making calls about, though it would be funny to see them come to the front door asking about it. I can show them the bayonet from across the street.

Haha...I was thinking the same thing. I had, at one time, multiple items that were transferred and bought through Kordell.

Thankfully I'm no longer a captive behind enemy lines.

+1



I keep a lawyer in my contacts (though I have never met him).  Here on LI, for 2nd Amendment issues, I would probably contact Murtha and Murtha if what I have read is correct.