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ydduit
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Posted: 2/11/2013 8:25:37 PM
Was working in PA today and happened across a shop that had a nice SA M1A, pre 94 manufacture. It was on the high side price wise but I have always wanted another to replace the ones That I got rid of years ago. I see that the M1A is not listed on the Safe Acts FAQ as an "ASSault Weapon". I can purchase this from the shop and transport it back to NY but am I just asking for trouble??? I know the 4473 are kept by the dealer and not "supposed" to be "made available"... If I bought this, would I just be inviting "the Man" into my home?
Whats the hive have to say??
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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kzx87
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Posted: 2/11/2013 8:27:19 PM
[Last Edit: 2/11/2013 8:28:33 PM by kzx87]
muzzle threads = illegal assault weapon

that being said, if it's really nice, then you know.
MPi-KMS-72
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Posted: 2/11/2013 8:39:16 PM
Why would you even bother with a pre '94 now? You might as well buy brand new. Lets assume you bought it and neutered it-removed the flash hider, bayo lug and threads or silver soldered a muzzle nut or fake FH on it, then it should be legal here and not subject to registration?
Sgt_Gold
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Posted: 2/11/2013 9:14:20 PM
Originally Posted By MPi-KMS-72:
Why would you even bother with a pre '94 now? You might as well buy brand new. Lets assume you bought it and neutered it-removed the flash hider, bayo lug and threads or silver soldered a muzzle nut or fake FH on it, then it should be legal here and not subject to registration?


The front sight is part of the flash suppressor on an M1A. I bought a fake flash hider, (no holes or slots), just so I could remove all the 'evil' features. The whole assembly is secured by a set screw. NYS currently has no definition of what constitutes a permanent modification, so you'd have to go by the ATF ruling that a permanently attached muzzle device is the end of the barrel, not the threads that it's attached to.
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ydduit
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Posted: 2/11/2013 9:39:52 PM
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold:
Originally Posted By MPi-KMS-72:
Why would you even bother with a pre '94 now? You might as well buy brand new. Lets assume you bought it and neutered it-removed the flash hider, bayo lug and threads or silver soldered a muzzle nut or fake FH on it, then it should be legal here and not subject to registration?


The front sight is part of the flash suppressor on an M1A. I bought a fake flash hider, (no holes or slots), just so I could remove all the 'evil' features. The whole assembly is secured by a set screw. NYS currently has no definition of what constitutes a permanent modification, so you'd have to go by the ATF ruling that a permanently attached muzzle device is the end of the barrel, not the threads that it's attached to.


That is what I was thinking of doing...A fake flash hider will make it legal.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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ulyranger
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Posted: 2/11/2013 11:51:44 PM
Smith Ent is producing a device that eliminates the useless bayo lug, provides a front site base and is solid up front so it cannot be confused with any kind of typical evil muzzle device. I would think if mounted in accordance with ATF guidelines it would keep M14/M1As off the evil list.

This is for the Socom, but if you scroll to the bottom it mentions a standard version is available. It sucks even thinking about destroying the lines of an awesome firearm, but if it keeps it under the radar.....

http://smithenterpriseinc.blogspot.com/2013/01/sei-rolls-out-new-york-compliant-gas.html
98percent_chimp
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Posted: 2/12/2013 7:44:30 PM
I am not a lawyer and I don't want to pee on anyone's cornflakes [funny how those two things go together...] but please consider this before deciding to put your legal fate in the advertisement claims of a retail vendor:

NYS Penal Code S 265.00

22. "Assault weapon" means
(a) ..[stuff deleted for brevity]
(vi) a flash suppressor, muzzle break, muzzle compensator, or threaded
barrel designed to accommodate
a flash suppressor, muzzle break, or
muzzle compensator


If the device threads onto the barrel you may still have an evil gun regardless of how CoolgadgetX is fixed on said threaded barrel...the rifle still has a threaded barrel designed to allow attachment of muzzle devices - it just has a non-babykiller muzzle device currently threaded on in some attempt to make it look permenant.

The NYS FAQ also says:

Q: If I modify my gun by removing all design characteristics that makes it an assault weapon, do I have to register it?

A: No. If you modify your gun so that it is not an assault weapon, you do not have to register it. The modification must be permanent however. This includes, for example, removing the bayonet lug by cutting or grinding, grinding off the threads on the barrel, removing the foregrip so that it cannot be readily reattached, or any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means.


It appears that the NYSP agree that the presence of threads on the barrel constitute an evil feature and would need to be physically removed from the barrel in order to make the gun compliant [assuming no other evilness being afoot, of course].

It will all depend on what the definitions of "permanent" and "reasonable means" are eventually twisted to mean....

junkpicker
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Posted: 2/12/2013 7:47:26 PM
NYS law is what counts here, if you want to go to court use a set screw.
vladimirchild
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Posted: 2/12/2013 8:00:29 PM
The threads are not on the muzzle and they are for securing the front sight. The old polytechs and norincos sometimes came with a solid extension without the slots cut so it is not a flash suppressor but looks like one. Also you could take the sight assy and cut the flash suppressor portion off and viola you have a front sight assy and that only. Legal. Take it a step further and tack weld the castle nut in two spots to the sight assy and it cant be removed, thus permanent.
olds442
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Posted: 2/12/2013 8:09:40 PM
Originally Posted By 98percent_chimp:
I am not a lawyer and I don't want to pee on anyone's cornflakes [funny how those two things go together...] but please consider this before deciding to put your legal fate in the advertisement claims of a retail vendor:

NYS Penal Code S 265.00

22. "Assault weapon" means
(a) ..[stuff deleted for brevity]
(vi) a flash suppressor, muzzle break, muzzle compensator, or threaded
barrel designed to accommodate
a flash suppressor, muzzle break, or
muzzle compensator


If the device threads onto the barrel you may still have an evil gun regardless of how CoolgadgetX is fixed on said threaded barrel...the rifle still has a threaded barrel designed to allow attachment of muzzle devices - it just has a non-babykiller muzzle device currently threaded on in some attempt to make it look permenant.

The NYS FAQ also says:

Q: If I modify my gun by removing all design characteristics that makes it an assault weapon, do I have to register it?

A: No. If you modify your gun so that it is not an assault weapon, you do not have to register it. The modification must be permanent however. This includes, for example, removing the bayonet lug by cutting or grinding, grinding off the threads on the barrel, removing the foregrip so that it cannot be readily reattached, or any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means.


It appears that the NYSP agree that the presence of threads on the barrel constitute an evil feature and would need to be physically removed from the barrel in order to make the gun compliant [assuming no other evilness being afoot, of course].

It will all depend on what the definitions of "permanent" and "reasonable means" are eventually twisted to mean....


The 2000 ban pretty much said the same thing, but we were able to pin and weld muzzle brakes on to make it NY compliant. Should be the same thing now as long as it's not a "muzzle brake" or "flash hider". I think some sort of cap on the threads, pin and welded is legal.

22. "Assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an
ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the
following characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon;
(iii) a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a
flash suppressor;

(v) a grenade launcher; or


Phil_A_Steen
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Posted: 2/12/2013 9:51:55 PM
Originally Posted By olds442:
The 2000 ban pretty much said the same thing, but we were able to pin and weld muzzle brakes on to make it NY compliant. Should be the same thing now as long as it's not a "muzzle brake" or "flash hider". I think some sort of cap on the threads, pin and welded is legal.



That is not correct. People did that widely assuming it was OK, but it was never established by any authority that it was an acceptable modification.
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olds442
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Posted: 2/13/2013 8:41:01 AM
Pinning and welding muzzle brakes was one of several ways acceptable by the BATF and since NYS's 2000 ban was basically a mirror of the Federal ban, it was acceptable by NYS. If not, why hasn't NYS law enforcement confiscated all the rifles in gun stores throughout NY that have pinned and welded brakes and pinned stocks and claim they had illegal "assault weapons"? Although there may not be any written documentation from NYS with regards to this,or the pinning of a collapsible stocks, many gun manufacturers were selling these rifles to New York in this configuration and calling them NY compliant and in 13 years no one from the state ever attempted to stop them. So as far as I see, it was gtg in 2000 and since the law still reads the same way, it is gtg now.
Phil_A_Steen
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Posted: 2/13/2013 8:47:56 AM
[Last Edit: 2/13/2013 8:48:15 AM by Phil_A_Steen]
Originally Posted By olds442:
Pinning and welding muzzle brakes was one of several ways acceptable by the BATF and since NYS's 2000 ban was basically a mirror of the Federal ban, it was acceptable by NYS. If not, why hasn't NYS law enforcement confiscated all the rifles in gun stores throughout NY that have pinned and welded brakes and pinned stocks and claim they had illegal "assault weapons"? Although there may not be any written documentation from NYS with regards to this,or the pinning of a collapsible stocks, many gun manufacturers were selling these rifles to New York in this configuration and calling them NY compliant and in 13 years no one from the state ever attempted to stop them. So as far as I see, it was gtg in 2000 and since the law still reads the same way, it is gtg now.


I sometimes feel like this but let me make the following points:

- The fact people have done it does not make it legal
- The fact that ATF permitted it means little or nothing in a NYS court which is free to interpret the law differently
- The fact that no enforcement action was previously taken does not make it legal
- The fact that the recent SAFE guidance says you can't do it is pretty troublesome but not dispositive
- The fact that we will see new enforcement pushes with SAFE like never before is certain and troublesome

Proceed at your own risk. If you think it's safe, go ahead and trot your gun out at Mitchell Field when Kathleen Rice sends her undercover investigators there to make a few collars and get headlines on "evil assault weapons". I wouldn't touch this one with a 100 meter cattle prod.
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olds442
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Posted: 2/13/2013 10:31:23 AM
[Last Edit: 2/13/2013 10:34:11 AM by olds442]
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Originally Posted By olds442:
Pinning and welding muzzle brakes was one of several ways acceptable by the BATF and since NYS's 2000 ban was basically a mirror of the Federal ban, it was acceptable by NYS. If not, why hasn't NYS law enforcement confiscated all the rifles in gun stores throughout NY that have pinned and welded brakes and pinned stocks and claim they had illegal "assault weapons"? Although there may not be any written documentation from NYS with regards to this,or the pinning of a collapsible stocks, many gun manufacturers were selling these rifles to New York in this configuration and calling them NY compliant and in 13 years no one from the state ever attempted to stop them. So as far as I see, it was gtg in 2000 and since the law still reads the same way, it is gtg now.


I sometimes feel like this but let me make the following points:

- The fact people have done it does not make it legal
- The fact that ATF permitted it means little or nothing in a NYS court which is free to interpret the law differently
- The fact that no enforcement action was previously taken does not make it legal
- The fact that the recent SAFE guidance says you can't do it is pretty troublesome but not dispositive
- The fact that we will see new enforcement pushes with SAFE like never before is certain and troublesome

Proceed at your own risk. If you think it's safe, go ahead and trot your gun out at Mitchell Field when Kathleen Rice sends her undercover investigators there to make a few collars and get headlines on "evil assault weapons". I wouldn't touch this one with a 100 meter cattle prod.


I guess you and I can agree to disagree.
- The fact that (actual law) I have a 30 day grace period IF CAUGHT (after the 1 year registration is up) with an unregistered "assault weapon" gives me the ability to find out if it is a legal modification.
- You bring up Kathleen Rice, what ever happened to the gun stores in Nassau county that were raided and she claimed they had illegal "assault weapons"?
You also mention - "The fact that the recent SAFE guidance says you can't do it is pretty troublesome but not dispositive" Can you please point out where it says that pin and welding a cap over threads on a barrel is not an acceptable method for modifying a rifle so it doesn't fall under the definition of an assault weapon. Okay with that said, as I said before, I agree with you that there is nothing in writing from NYS as to what is a legal modification. There may be some examples of what are acceptable modifications, but just that, "some examples". Who's to say at this point there aren't other ways to modify and be compliant. I guess we shall see.
0612Devil
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Posted: 2/13/2013 11:11:35 AM
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Originally Posted By olds442:
The 2000 ban pretty much said the same thing, but we were able to pin and weld muzzle brakes on to make it NY compliant. Should be the same thing now as long as it's not a "muzzle brake" or "flash hider". I think some sort of cap on the threads, pin and welded is legal.



That is not correct. People did that widely assuming it was OK, but it was never established by any authority that it was an acceptable modification.


I think I remember Aimless posting some verbiage in regards to the Ny AWB which stated it's intent was to not making anything else illegal that already wasn't under the Fed Ban.

I believe the ATF has officially stated that welding brakes/caps is legal.
olds442
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Posted: 2/13/2013 12:16:09 PM
Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Originally Posted By olds442:
The 2000 ban pretty much said the same thing, but we were able to pin and weld muzzle brakes on to make it NY compliant. Should be the same thing now as long as it's not a "muzzle brake" or "flash hider". I think some sort of cap on the threads, pin and welded is legal.



That is not correct. People did that widely assuming it was OK, but it was never established by any authority that it was an acceptable modification.


I think I remember Aimless posting some verbiage in regards to the Ny AWB which stated it's intent was to not making anything else illegal that already wasn't under the Fed Ban.

I believe the ATF has officially stated that welding brakes/caps is legal.


This is correct, they have and that is why there were are so many threaded barrels with muzzle brakes pinned and welded on them in NYS. All the gun manufacturers saw this as being NY compliant and sold the rifles as such.

hoodfu
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Posted: 2/13/2013 1:24:09 PM
[Last Edit: 2/13/2013 1:25:00 PM by hoodfu]
Exactly. If you look at the Nassau stores taken to task by Kathleen Rice, the ones that didn't want to go to trail were dismissed. I can't remember if T&T has gone to trial over this one yet, but they recently won the other case that the county had against them. The state police and the court didn't and doesn't agree with Kathleen Rice's view that assault weapons can't be modified to become compliant. The law now actually includes the language about modifying a gun to become compliant. If you make a good faith effort to make a gun compliant with ATF compliant modifications, IMHO, I don't see you getting banged for it. The worst thing I see happening is the cop says "hey, that's not compliant, you have 30 days to register it", or they confiscate it. It mentions this avenue in the law.
MPi-KMS-72
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Posted: 2/13/2013 1:32:03 PM
[Last Edit: 2/13/2013 3:26:18 PM by MPi-KMS-72]
Anyone remember back in the 1980s when there was an article in SOF about "modernizing" the M1a using a HK G3 tripleframe for a front sight and cutting the barrel back to make it shorter? They used the HK G3 flash hider too. Anyway maybe that would be a solution for the front sight and naturally you could cut the barrel to whatever length you want and leave the muzzle bare with no threads at all. Yes it would look ghay with a bare muzzle.


The M1a in the original article looked pretty cool, it was kind of like an early attempt at a SOCOM type M1a. I suppose you could find a dummy HK flash hider and press it on the barrel and pin it- like the SAR8s had, that would look better.



Found scans of the article "Make Mine M14" July 1982:





http://m14forum.com/m14/84008-make-mine-m14.html


[edit] something similar would be even easier today with these available:

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/gas-system-parts/gas-system-hardware/locks/m14-m1a-gas-cylinder-lock-sight-dovetail-prod25226.aspx


[last edit] http://www.magazineblocks.com/magento/products/m14-m1a-blocks.html There is a M1a mag block. Since M14 mags are steel you could TIG the floor plates on or maybe rivet them.

Phil_A_Steen
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Posted: 2/13/2013 2:24:47 PM
Originally Posted By olds442:


I guess you and I can agree to disagree.
- The fact that (actual law) I have a 30 day grace period IF CAUGHT (after the 1 year registration is up) with an unregistered "assault weapon" gives me the ability to find out if it is a legal modification.
- You bring up Kathleen Rice, what ever happened to the gun stores in Nassau county that were raided and she claimed they had illegal "assault weapons"?
You also mention - "The fact that the recent SAFE guidance says you can't do it is pretty troublesome but not dispositive" Can you please point out where it says that pin and welding a cap over threads on a barrel is not an acceptable method for modifying a rifle so it doesn't fall under the definition of an assault weapon. Okay with that said, as I said before, I agree with you that there is nothing in writing from NYS as to what is a legal modification. There may be some examples of what are acceptable modifications, but just that, "some examples". Who's to say at this point there aren't other ways to modify and be compliant. I guess we shall see.




As quoted above:
Q: If I modify my gun by removing all design characteristics that makes it an assault weapon, do I have to register it?

A: No. If you modify your gun so that it is not an assault weapon, you do not have to register it. The modification must be permanent however. This includes, for example, removing the bayonet lug by cutting or grinding,grinding off the threads on the barrel, removing the foregrip so that it cannot be readily reattached, or any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means.



The fact that the gun store case was BS should make you more, not less, worried. Rice is willing to spend millions in resources on very little to grab headlines on "assault weapons."

Some people like seven grain bread . . . I like 55 grain lead.
jws360
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Posted: 2/13/2013 3:11:57 PM
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Originally Posted By olds442:


I guess you and I can agree to disagree.
- The fact that (actual law) I have a 30 day grace period IF CAUGHT (after the 1 year registration is up) with an unregistered "assault weapon" gives me the ability to find out if it is a legal modification.
- You bring up Kathleen Rice, what ever happened to the gun stores in Nassau county that were raided and she claimed they had illegal "assault weapons"?
You also mention - "The fact that the recent SAFE guidance says you can't do it is pretty troublesome but not dispositive" Can you please point out where it says that pin and welding a cap over threads on a barrel is not an acceptable method for modifying a rifle so it doesn't fall under the definition of an assault weapon. Okay with that said, as I said before, I agree with you that there is nothing in writing from NYS as to what is a legal modification. There may be some examples of what are acceptable modifications, but just that, "some examples". Who's to say at this point there aren't other ways to modify and be compliant. I guess we shall see.




As quoted above:
Q: If I modify my gun by removing all design characteristics that makes it an assault weapon, do I have to register it?

A: No. If you modify your gun so that it is not an assault weapon, you do not have to register it. The modification must be permanent however. This includes, for example, removing the bayonet lug by cutting or grinding,grinding off the threads on the barrel, removing the foregrip so that it cannot be readily reattached, or any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means.



The fact that the gun store case was BS should make you more, not less, worried. Rice is willing to spend millions in resources on very little to grab headlines on "assault weapons."



The additional language high lighted arguably gives another way to alter/comply for those so inclined.

One can argue that "any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means" can encompass a fairly broad category. Simply unthreading something would likely not fly, but steps with more substantive efforts might. Another factor is where one may shoot. A public range near a large Democratic infested city may compel one solution & someplace more rural another.

Personally, I'd rather see those from New York focus on fighting and saying "FU", but that's another topic.
olds442
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Posted: 2/13/2013 3:14:25 PM
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Originally Posted By olds442:


I guess you and I can agree to disagree.
- The fact that (actual law) I have a 30 day grace period IF CAUGHT (after the 1 year registration is up) with an unregistered "assault weapon" gives me the ability to find out if it is a legal modification.
- You bring up Kathleen Rice, what ever happened to the gun stores in Nassau county that were raided and she claimed they had illegal "assault weapons"?
You also mention - "The fact that the recent SAFE guidance says you can't do it is pretty troublesome but not dispositive" Can you please point out where it says that pin and welding a cap over threads on a barrel is not an acceptable method for modifying a rifle so it doesn't fall under the definition of an assault weapon. Okay with that said, as I said before, I agree with you that there is nothing in writing from NYS as to what is a legal modification. There may be some examples of what are acceptable modifications, but just that, "some examples". Who's to say at this point there aren't other ways to modify and be compliant. I guess we shall see.




As quoted above:
Q: If I modify my gun by removing all design characteristics that makes it an assault weapon, do I have to register it?

A: No. If you modify your gun so that it is not an assault weapon, you do not have to register it. The modification must be permanent however. This includes, for example, removing the bayonet lug by cutting or grinding,grinding off the threads on the barrel, removing the foregrip so that it cannot be readily reattached, or any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means.



The fact that the gun store case was BS should make you more, not less, worried. Rice is willing to spend millions in resources on very little to grab headlines on "assault weapons."



That is just an example of what could be done, not what has to be done. The gun store cases being bullshit makes me that much more confident that what I suggested is in fact a legal way to modify a rifle to no longer fall under the "assault weapon" definition. She tried to get these gun stores on the same exact thing we are discussing, if she couldn't prove it then, what makes you think she will be able to prove it now. She already has one strike against her. As it stands, neither one of us has any law to back up what we believe is legal and what is not.

garr
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Posted: 2/13/2013 3:51:38 PM
While I agree the old accepted methods given to us by the ATF HERE should be legal, as this method was used by Mfgs to mount muzzle devices on guns sold in NYS for the last 13 years under the old ban & I don't think this was ever challenged by NYS.
But for the person who wants to use a "NO Question" legal way to mount a fake flash hider to any barrel it should be a fairly easy task for any machine shop to remove the barrel threads & press fit/pin a Legal muzzle device onto it.
Lets hope the Courts make this unconstitutional crap go away!
Ironball
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Posted: 2/14/2013 1:37:25 AM
Why not just tuck your M1A away for a rainy day and buy a Garand for shooting.

Do Not Comply