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Posted: 8/26/2016 7:14:38 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Question as I'm new to Texas: Have three different 5.56 rifles coming to the same FFL for transfer. Has anyone had any issues with ATF regarding multiple rifle purchases? I know they require reporting just like they do across the country for multiple handgun sales, just curious. I know it's 100% legal and don't really feel like driving to multiple dealers or going up to the dealer multiple times. No they do not require reporting like handguns do across the country. Depending upon what type of rifle and what type of FFL you buy from it may require reporting. There is little evidence the ATF does anything with this reporting info so it will most likely be a non-event. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwim_7q4muDOAhVM2mMKHTw6AuMQFggKMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atf.gov%2Fresource-center%2Ffact-sheet%2Ffact-sheet-multiple-firearms-sales-or-other-disposition-reporting&usg=AFQjCNHepjKfMnXXQXvKpYblIKkgKHfKQQ&sig2=oaNkPbpmcp18RIlls0mBrg |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 8:01:34 PM EDT
[#2]
All three meet the three criteria. I've done multiple handguns many times in my previous states, but I know ATF has focused on the border states over the past few years.
I'm not overly concerned as being active duty the .gov already owns pretty much all the info about me, just curious. |
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Posted: 8/26/2016 8:28:46 PM EDT
[#3]
Don't worry. The Feds have been caught several times keeping info they are not supposed to by law. You were on a list the first time you did a 4473.
You can do like what he NRA suggests if they ever contact you abut a multi purchase. Tell them to go away until they have a warrant then close the door or disconnect the call. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 1:01:31 AM EDT
[#4]
Get 20 lowers in one stop, Then deploy and buy another 30? mixed long/short guns and pick them up one day, then buy guns in groups of 3 to 7 every few weeks for the next few years.
I think you are fine |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 8:41:41 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Question as I'm new to Texas: Have three different 5.56 rifles coming to the same FFL for transfer. Has anyone had any issues with ATF regarding multiple rifle purchases? I know they require reporting just like they do across the country for multiple handgun sales, just curious. I know it's 100% legal and don't really feel like driving to multiple dealers or going up to the dealer multiple times. Typically as people have said, multiple purchase contacts from BATFE are infrequent, although more common here near the border. Generally if you still have the firearms in question and are affirmative that you intend to keep them for yourself that is all they usually want to know. They usually won't be too interested unless you are already on their radar as someone who is possibly a straw buyer. All that said... best not to attract their attention in the future if you can avoid it... BUT... for certain things (read RICO) a pattern of activity specifically designed to avoid detection can cause you grief. Like making multiple smaller cash deposits a.k.a. "structuring" can be considered "money laundering" and investigated by the feds even if no other illegal activity occurs. |
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Posted: 8/27/2016 9:08:42 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Get 20 lowers in one stop, Then deploy and buy another 30? mixed long/short guns and pick them up one day, then buy guns in groups of 3 to 7 every few weeks for the next few years. I think you are fine Thanks. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 1:32:39 AM EDT
[#7]
I believe it's 5 complete rifles in a one week time frame that has to get reported in TX but I'm not 100% sure. I asked my FFL the same question about 3 months ago regarding 6 bare lowers and I'm fairly certain that's what he told me but I could be 100% wrong.
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Posted: 8/28/2016 2:21:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Certain Rifles
"This form is to be used by licensees to report all transactions in which an unlicensed person acquired, at one time or during five consecutive business days, two or more semi-automatic rifles larger than .22 caliber (including .223/5.56 caliber) with the ability to accept a detachable magazine. This form is not required when the rifles are returned to the same person from whom they are received." |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 12:00:16 PM EDT
[#9]
The wording is interesting. Technically that means anyone with any sort of FFL wouldn't need to have that form sent in.
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Posted: 8/28/2016 2:20:12 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe it's 5 complete rifles in a one week time frame that has to get reported in TX but I'm not 100% sure. I asked my FFL the same question about 3 months ago regarding 6 bare lowers and I'm fairly certain that's what he told me but I could be 100% wrong. <----FFL/SOT Lowers aren't rifles. A dealer could sell a single customer a hundred lowers today and absolutely nothing gets reported. If your FFL is sending in multiple sale reports to ATF on AR lowers he is an idiot and needs to read the instructions on the Form 4473 and Multiple Sale of Certain Rifles form. Only licensed 01FFL's (dealers) in CA, AZ, NM and TX must file the reports for Certain Rifles, all licensees (01, 02, 07) in any state must file reports for multiple sales of handguns. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 2:28:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The wording is interesting. Technically that means anyone with any sort of FFL wouldn't need to have that form sent in. Nope. While the reporting of multiple sales of handguns was legislated by Congress, the requirement to report multiple sales of certain rifles was invented by the White House/ATF without Congressional action. This typically leads to inconsistencies. For example, buy thirty AR's from your local gun store that is licensed as an 07FFL (manufacturer) and they aren't required to report multiple sales of certain rifles. Buy two AR's from a LGS with an 01FFL (dealer) and he has to file the report to ATF. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/080911-qa-multiple-riflespdf/download |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 2:52:19 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. While the reporting of multiple sales of handguns was legislated by Congress, the requirement to report multiple sales of certain rifles was invented by the White House/ATF without Congressional action. This typically leads to inconsistencies. For example, buy thirty AR's from your local gun store that is licensed as an 07FFL (manufacturer) and they aren't required to report multiple sales of certain rifles. Buy two AR's from a LGS with an 01FFL (dealer) and he has to file the report to ATF. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/080911-qa-multiple-riflespdf/download Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The wording is interesting. Technically that means anyone with any sort of FFL wouldn't need to have that form sent in. Nope. While the reporting of multiple sales of handguns was legislated by Congress, the requirement to report multiple sales of certain rifles was invented by the White House/ATF without Congressional action. This typically leads to inconsistencies. For example, buy thirty AR's from your local gun store that is licensed as an 07FFL (manufacturer) and they aren't required to report multiple sales of certain rifles. Buy two AR's from a LGS with an 01FFL (dealer) and he has to file the report to ATF. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/080911-qa-multiple-riflespdf/download Not what I meant, poorly written on my part. I mean that since the requirement is for reporting sales to unlicensed person, that a sale to any licensed FFL, even one with an 03, could conceivably be exempt from the reporting requirement. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 9:01:14 PM EDT
[#13]
It's 2 or more semi automatic rifles with a detachable magazine chambered in anything larger than 22LR. Now you know for sure!
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Posted: 8/28/2016 9:45:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not what I meant, poorly written on my part. I mean that since the requirement is for reporting sales to unlicensed person, that a sale to any licensed FFL, even one with an 03, could conceivably be exempt from the reporting requirement. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The wording is interesting. Technically that means anyone with any sort of FFL wouldn't need to have that form sent in. Nope. While the reporting of multiple sales of handguns was legislated by Congress, the requirement to report multiple sales of certain rifles was invented by the White House/ATF without Congressional action. This typically leads to inconsistencies. For example, buy thirty AR's from your local gun store that is licensed as an 07FFL (manufacturer) and they aren't required to report multiple sales of certain rifles. Buy two AR's from a LGS with an 01FFL (dealer) and he has to file the report to ATF. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/080911-qa-multiple-riflespdf/download Not what I meant, poorly written on my part. I mean that since the requirement is for reporting sales to unlicensed person, that a sale to any licensed FFL, even one with an 03, could conceivably be exempt from the reporting requirement. It's clearly not "could conceivably be exempt" as the instructions say UNLICENSED PERSON. FFL's are not "unlicensed persons". As far as not applying to an 03FFl, that too is incorrect. 03FFL's are prohibited by law from using their FFL to obtain firearms that are not curios or relics. |
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Posted: 8/28/2016 10:22:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's clearly not "could conceivably be exempt" as the instructions say UNLICENSED PERSON. FFL's are not "unlicensed persons". As far as not applying to an 03FFl, that too is incorrect. 03FFL's are prohibited by law from using their FFL to obtain firearms that are not curios or relics. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The wording is interesting. Technically that means anyone with any sort of FFL wouldn't need to have that form sent in. Nope. While the reporting of multiple sales of handguns was legislated by Congress, the requirement to report multiple sales of certain rifles was invented by the White House/ATF without Congressional action. This typically leads to inconsistencies. For example, buy thirty AR's from your local gun store that is licensed as an 07FFL (manufacturer) and they aren't required to report multiple sales of certain rifles. Buy two AR's from a LGS with an 01FFL (dealer) and he has to file the report to ATF. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/080911-qa-multiple-riflespdf/download Not what I meant, poorly written on my part. I mean that since the requirement is for reporting sales to unlicensed person, that a sale to any licensed FFL, even one with an 03, could conceivably be exempt from the reporting requirement. It's clearly not "could conceivably be exempt" as the instructions say UNLICENSED PERSON. FFL's are not "unlicensed persons". As far as not applying to an 03FFl, that too is incorrect. 03FFL's are prohibited by law from using their FFL to obtain firearms that are not curios or relics. I would agree that's the intent of the statement. Either way, question was answered. Thanks to those who replied. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 1:41:34 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<----FFL/SOT Lowers aren't rifles. A dealer could sell a single customer a hundred lowers today and absolutely nothing gets reported. If your FFL is sending in multiple sale reports to ATF on AR lowers he is an idiot and needs to read the instructions on the Form 4473 and Multiple Sale of Certain Rifles form. Only licensed 01FFL's (dealers) in CA, AZ, NM and TX must file the reports for Certain Rifles, all licensees (01, 02, 07) in any state must file reports for multiple sales of handguns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I believe it's 5 complete rifles in a one week time frame that has to get reported in TX but I'm not 100% sure. I asked my FFL the same question about 3 months ago regarding 6 bare lowers and I'm fairly certain that's what he told me but I could be 100% wrong. <----FFL/SOT Lowers aren't rifles. A dealer could sell a single customer a hundred lowers today and absolutely nothing gets reported. If your FFL is sending in multiple sale reports to ATF on AR lowers he is an idiot and needs to read the instructions on the Form 4473 and Multiple Sale of Certain Rifles form. Only licensed 01FFL's (dealers) in CA, AZ, NM and TX must file the reports for Certain Rifles, all licensees (01, 02, 07) in any state must file reports for multiple sales of handguns. I said complete rifles, not lowers. He said I could buy as many lowers as I wanted and he never had to report it. The reporting was only for complete rifles. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 9:05:32 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's clearly not "could conceivably be exempt" as the instructions say UNLICENSED PERSON. FFL's are not "unlicensed persons". As far as not applying to an 03FFl, that too is incorrect. 03FFL's are prohibited by law from using their FFL to obtain firearms that are not curios or relics. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The wording is interesting. Technically that means anyone with any sort of FFL wouldn't need to have that form sent in. Nope. While the reporting of multiple sales of handguns was legislated by Congress, the requirement to report multiple sales of certain rifles was invented by the White House/ATF without Congressional action. This typically leads to inconsistencies. For example, buy thirty AR's from your local gun store that is licensed as an 07FFL (manufacturer) and they aren't required to report multiple sales of certain rifles. Buy two AR's from a LGS with an 01FFL (dealer) and he has to file the report to ATF. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/080911-qa-multiple-riflespdf/download Not what I meant, poorly written on my part. I mean that since the requirement is for reporting sales to unlicensed person, that a sale to any licensed FFL, even one with an 03, could conceivably be exempt from the reporting requirement. It's clearly not "could conceivably be exempt" as the instructions say UNLICENSED PERSON. FFL's are not "unlicensed persons". As far as not applying to an 03FFl, that too is incorrect. 03FFL's are prohibited by law from using their FFL to obtain firearms that are not curios or relics. FWIW, there are AR15s that are C&R Eligible now, and a few other semi auto rifles with detachable box mags in a centerfire caliber that are as well. |
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