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Posted: 6/20/2017 10:10:16 AM EDT
So I am going to be driving through NJ on my way to Maine later this week.  I have LEOSA creds, and due to NJ and NY laws only carrying a low capacity 9mm. Am I correct in my understanding that NJ bans hollow point ammo?
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 1:35:30 PM EDT
[#1]
Correct - NJ law prohibits possession of hollow-point ammunition, except in certain circumstances.  However, the NJ statute reads:

"Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dumdum bullet"

Further, the amended LEOSA (amended in 2010 as S.1132) provides protection from state laws on certain types of ammunition.  Specifically:

However, the Federal law does extend the exemption to allow the carriage of ammunition “not
expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act.”
This means that qualified active and retired law enforcement officers may carry ammunition in
States which may have prohibited the possession of certain ammunition by persons not actively
serving in law enforcement within that State.
View Quote
The specific statute defines 'firearm' to include: "ammunition not expressly prohibited by Federal law or subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act".

Therefore, the amended S.1132 permits you, under LEOSA, to carry HP ammo.
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 7:43:22 PM EDT
[#2]
I was told that possession of HPs is a secondary offense and only becomes an issue when they are used in the commission of a crime.  I buy and shoot solid copper HP slugs out of my 12Ga Slug Gun, and I have recently  purchased 9mm, and10mm Hornaday Critical Defense.
Link Posted: 6/20/2017 8:35:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks, that's good to know.  I have some 110gr flat nose Hertzberger ammo, but I've never shot it out of my Kahr and don't have time before the trip to go to the range and test it.
Link Posted: 6/21/2017 7:56:32 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
I was told that possession of HPs is a secondary offense and only becomes an issue when they are used in the commission of a crime.  I buy and shoot solid copper HP slugs out of my 12Ga Slug Gun, and I have recently  purchased 9mm, and10mm Hornaday Critical Defense.
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That's a myth that's been floating around so many times, it's become accepted as fact.  The actual statute makes no mention of the "in the commission of a crime", as it does with, for example, possession of body armor.

While unlikely, the statute allows you to be charged for possessing even a single hollow-nose projectile (not even a complete cartridge) - just a loose 185 grain Hornady XTP bullet in your pocket.
Link Posted: 6/21/2017 7:57:43 AM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
I was told that possession of HPs is a secondary offense and only becomes an issue when they are used in the commission of a crime.  I buy and shoot solid copper HP slugs out of my 12Ga Slug Gun, and I have recently  purchased 9mm, and10mm Hornaday Critical Defense.
View Quote
That's not accurate. Hollow points basically follow the same possession restrictions as a handgun, you can have them in your home, at the range, etc but it is illegal for example to drive around town with a box of them in your trunk.
Link Posted: 6/25/2017 6:53:22 PM EDT
[#6]
But, God forbid you have them in your home defense handgun and have to use the hollow point to defend yourself once you have retreated and find yourself cornered in a closet, and have no other place to retreat to.

Am I wrong in thinking that I can be criminally charged for using HP bullets to defend myself and my family?

Only in NJ!
Link Posted: 6/25/2017 8:42:45 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
But, God forbid you have them in your home defense handgun and have to use the hollow point to defend yourself once you have retreated and find yourself cornered in a closet, and have no other place to retreat to.
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Quoted:
But, God forbid you have them in your home defense handgun and have to use the hollow point to defend yourself once you have retreated and find yourself cornered in a closet, and have no other place to retreat to.
No duty to retreat in your own dwelling - unless you were the initial aggressor.

Am I wrong in thinking that I can be criminally charged for using HP bullets to defend myself and my family?
Yes...

The statute against HP ammo is one of possession.  The statute expressly permits possession in one's home.  There is no statute that you could be charged with for "using" HP ammo, vs. any other kind of ammo.
Link Posted: 6/26/2017 5:53:12 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
No duty to retreat in your own dwelling - unless you were the initial aggressor.

Yes...

The statute against HP ammo is one of possession.  The statute expressly permits possession in one's home.  There is no statute that you could be charged with for "using" HP ammo, vs. any other kind of ammo.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
But, God forbid you have them in your home defense handgun and have to use the hollow point to defend yourself once you have retreated and find yourself cornered in a closet, and have no other place to retreat to.
No duty to retreat in your own dwelling - unless you were the initial aggressor.

Am I wrong in thinking that I can be criminally charged for using HP bullets to defend myself and my family?
Yes...

The statute against HP ammo is one of possession.  The statute expressly permits possession in one's home.  There is no statute that you could be charged with for "using" HP ammo, vs. any other kind of ammo.
This confusion is the real purpose of gun laws in NJ.

I am almost certain that if someone breaks into your home, you are not at liberty to open fire on them.  You must first seek refuge away from the individual and only after you have no other alternative can you fire upon the intruder.

As for hollow point bullets, if you shoot someone in your home with them for the purpose of self defense, you are charged for using them.

Any knowledgable minds on the subject?
Link Posted: 6/26/2017 9:58:23 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:


This confusion is the real purpose of gun laws in NJ.

I am almost certain that if someone breaks into your home, you are not at liberty to open fire on them.  You must first seek refuge away from the individual and only after you have no other alternative can you fire upon the intruder.

As for hollow point bullets, if you shoot someone in your home with them for the purpose of self defense, you are charged for using them.

Any knowledgable minds on the subject?
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Tom is knowledgeable. Stop spreading falsehoods. There is no crime for using hollow points if you possess them within the exemptions.
Link Posted: 6/27/2017 8:17:16 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:
I am almost certain that if someone breaks into your home, you are not at liberty to open fire on them.  You must first seek refuge away from the individual and only after you have no other alternative can you fire upon the intruder.
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Quoted:
I am almost certain that if someone breaks into your home, you are not at liberty to open fire on them.  You must first seek refuge away from the individual and only after you have no other alternative can you fire upon the intruder.
Have you read the statutes?  2C:3-4 spells it out pretty well.  2C:3-4b(2)(b)(1) states "The actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling, unless he was the initial aggressor".  2C:3-4c(1) states "the use of force or deadly force upon or toward an intruder who is unlawfully in a dwelling is justifiable when the actor reasonably believes that the force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself or other persons in the dwelling against the use of unlawful force by the intruder on the present occasion".  2C:3-4c(2) further defines "reasonable belief" to mean: "A reasonable belief exists when the actor, to protect himself or a third person, was in his own dwelling at the time of the offense or was privileged to be thereon and the encounter between the actor and intruder was sudden and unexpected, compelling the actor to act instantly"

As for hollow point bullets, if you shoot someone in your home with them for the purpose of self defense, you are charged for using them.
Since you're stating this as a fact, please provide the statute you would expect to be charged with for using HP ammo in a legal self-defense situation (that being any situation that fits the parameters of the statute discussed above).  If, however, your answer is 2C:39-3f, it's going to get marked wrong - as 2C:39-3f expressly permits possession of HP ammo within one's home.
Link Posted: 6/27/2017 6:57:28 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:

Tom is knowledgeable. Stop spreading falsehoods. There is no crime for using hollow points if you possess them within the exemptions.
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Not spreading "falsehoods", that's the MSM job. If you ever get into a situation where a question exists regarding "the very clear and straight forward"  NJ gun laws, I'm sure once you quote Tom48, everything will be just fine.  There is a difference between possession of HP bullets in your home and using one to terminate a threat within your domicile.

I believe the NJ castle doctrine has very specific wording regarding the defender's actions that must be taken before terminating a threat.  By no means am I 100% certain of these points but discussion and questions are surely not out of line, in fact they are informative which is exactly what the NJ hoplophobic politicians don't want.

To extrapolate on an issue serves to spread knowledge on said issue.
Link Posted: 6/28/2017 8:19:17 AM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
There is a difference between possession of HP bullets in your home and using one to terminate a threat within your domicile.
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Please enlighten us on those differences.
Link Posted: 6/28/2017 3:32:44 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:

Please enlighten us on those differences.
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njsp.org

I can't.

However the above link, which you must be familiar with, gives the specifics on the NJ HP bullet law.

I can't seem to find where it says you are not to be found guilty should you find yourself using HP in a unfortunate event such as a home invasion.  But then of course this being NJ, there is no chance of criminality should such an event take place.

As for the NJ "castle doctrine", it states "There is a duty to retreat first".

Castle doctrine

Forum members should know beforehand the letter of the law and I for one would never attempt to give legal advice regarding any topic but specially when it comes to gun laws in this state.
Link Posted: 6/28/2017 11:54:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 6/29/2017 12:22:28 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
However the above link, which you must be familiar with, gives the specifics on the NJ HP bullet law.
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Quoted:
However the above link, which you must be familiar with, gives the specifics on the NJ HP bullet law.
Yes - that would be 2C:39-3f, which explicitly states that possession of HP ammo is legal in your home.  It says nothing about the legality or illegality of their use in a SD scenario.

I can't seem to find where it says you are not to be found guilty should you find yourself using HP in a unfortunate event such as a home invasion.
It's right next to the statute that says it's legal to walk down Main Street wearing a pink tutu.  Laws are written to restrict certain behavior - not to permit.  The only time a law will permit certain behavior is if it first prevents a broader form of that behavior.  As in NJ's HP ammo case:  "It is unlawful to possess HP ammunition.....   EXCEPT in one's home".

As for the NJ "castle doctrine", it states "There is a duty to retreat first".
Why do you insist on relying on general summaries, instead of actual statute?  I posted the actual statute above, where it EXPRESSLY states that there is NO duty to retreat if you are in your own home, and you were not the initial aggressor.

Forum members should know beforehand the letter of the law
Yes - which is why I posted exactly that, with references to the full statutes, should one be inclined to research it themselves, rather than relying on third-hand lore
Link Posted: 6/29/2017 8:34:53 AM EDT
[#16]


OK.  It is what it is.
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