Well since a large portion of the swat raids seem to be at night I could see the justification for night vision.  I can also see the justification for sbr's and suppressors.  Now I don't see any justification for full auto or mraps.  If we are to be held accountable for every round we fire how does one accomplish that using full auto?  This isn't a war zone and we aren't needing suppressive gun fire.

Woot lets get the coppers  some TVS-5's!

The Highway Patrol has a plane ask me how I found about that one!

Yup, I know the guy who flies it well (well one of them) They have a Cessna 182. Cessna 182 is very cheap to operate compared to say a Bell 206 or UH-1 though

also cheap compared to an MRAP.

Hopefully we can get belt feds too.

You have to get CROWs for all of the MRAP's right?

Well yeah

I'm sure you are all aware of this little quote, but just in case...

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Apparently it has been confirmed. Black Hawk County Sheriff's Office got a MRAP.

Awesome.  A community that size will likely need one at some point.

just like this thread needs a troll.

Checking in, sir.  

If any of you fine American's need some industrial gasses to cut through the armor plate of injustice, feel free to get in touch with me.

Oh come on, you've been trolling on this topic for quite some time.....

You could start by re-opening the Pella branch... sucks having it closed. :P

in my best creepy voice, NOOOO...  i'm NOT trolling...  i'm serious.  this action and mindset is a huge mistake, dangerous, and i can promise you, that while you and most of the LE i know are good shits, when given an order to overstep the boundaries a great number will go right ahead and do it.  now, we've moved beyond having a badge and respect to military might.  this fundamentally a poor direction...

is every law man i know able and willing to disobey an order they know is immoral or unethical or illegal?  if they don't do it, they lose their job, their career, their friends, their ability to get hired in those professional circles, their pension, and possibly worse.  they face not being able to pay their mortgage or feed their kids if they don't do what they're told...  we watched it happen in LA and during Katrina...

instead of seeing on the LE side of the argument, you should be irritated you're being pushed into a 'us or them' situation across the board.  i'm not doing that.  95% of us aren't doing that.  but LE are being patterned to accept that flawed premise daily.  so the divide i see widening is being further substantiated by tools like an MRAP.

why the hell don't we bring in navy swiftboats to patrol saylorville lake?  they COULD serve a purpose, right?  we're so busy conjuring up ways to justify a cool toy, that we've never stopped to ask ourselves if we should...

When Waterloo finally implodes I'd take Waterloo PD with their bearcat instead of Black Hawk with their tactical rv and MRAP.

Indianola is really behind the times...

Police department uses new weapon for protection



I'm glad they are getting tools they can actually use while efficiently using resources that have already been paid for.

Hopefully the mrap arrives soon.

Pfffhhhhh...I can't carry a rifle.

I am nothing but supportive of LEO's,  That said, I see little to no reason for them to waste the money on things like MRAP's and select fire weapons.  I think there are better options than the MRAP out there for Law Enforcement use, the MRAP was designed to defeat the IED threat in the middle east.  When was the last time a roadside IED went off in Iowa?  

Select fire is about the same thing.  It's effective if a squad of Soldiers uses it to lay down a base of fire and assault beneath it.  I don't think "keeping the peace" against civilians really requires that to happen very much.  I do know that in day to day operations over 15 months in Eastern Baghdad, I never one time saw fit to use the burst function on my M4.  Nobody did.. it was a waste.  Yes, we did have to use the crew serves on the HMMWV's occasionally, but only occasionally when groups of the Mahdi Army decided to engage us.  An automatic rifle in the hands of law enforcement does little except give the ability to amplify a bad decision into a tragic incident.  

I personally think that Law Enforcement agencies have a duty to spend money more responsibly than this.

Even if they never find that one chance when they can use an MRAP, at least they get $3000 + maintenance cost worth of public relations.

Plus, it would make a great addition to the cover of that booklet about the philosophy of community policing.

Thank you for your service!  I have a level of respect and appreciation for members of our military that I can't put into words.  Although I have no animosity towards leo I don't feel the same about them.

Saw this last week @ Karl Vehicle Prep south of Ankeny.  Coming soon to a theatre near you.

one has to wonder whether the sight of something like that on a public road would be enough to trigger a PTSD issue for some folks...and whether they could (should?) sue for mental anguish brought on by the arrogant prick (fitzy) pretending he has a valid use for it....

That's about as ridiculous and outlandish as anything posted in this thread.

it was meant to be.  

Oh gotcha.  Sarcasm sometimes doesn't translate well in writing.

Polk county got both a few years back.

Right or wrong aside, you do realize that most of the time these are being GIVEN to the agencies, right?  They probably had it in their budget for a BEAR or BEARCAT already, so it saves money on an armored personnel carrier that they were going to buy anyway.

And LE agencies don't spend 15,000 per m16/m4 like you are probably thinking.  Direct from the manufacturer they really don't cost anymore than a semi AR.  So the "it's a waste of money" excuse really isn't valid.

It's not the purchase price that people are upset about.  Among other things, it's the fact they're entering into maintenance contracts THEY CAN'T AFFORD.  Which means they'll be in breach of the contract, and the MRAPs will have to be surrendered.  Which leaves them where, exactly?

When I was stationed in Germany, we had M35A3 series 2 1/2 ton trucks, and we were in service agreements with both AM General and Caterpillar (AM General made the vehicle, Cat made the engine), and both companies were only good for pointing out how whatever was broken wasn't part of their service agreement.  PIcture paying $3,000 per year on all of your vehicles for one of those aftermarket "warranties" that you get cards in the mail for.. that's mostly what it boils down to being.   Plus, from what I'm tracking, they have to pay for delivery, possibly including transport all the way from wherever in the world the vehicle is, plus demilitarization, plus painting/decal/outfitting with whatever radios and gear.  All for a vehicle that isn't really good at anything that it could be needed for.  

Looking at it another way.. it's like getting a free horse.. that you have to spend a couple grand on tack in order to use, and then feed it $3K a year.  Free is great, right?  But you've gotten along for a long time without a horse, do you really need a damned horse?   If you had to pay full price, would you buy a horse?  Probably not.   This should be basic junior-high school level budgeting sense.  

As for the select fire rifles.. I am aware that they aren't as pricey as civilian NFA stuff, however I have seen the government data on what Colt charges for an M4, or at least what they used to charge, I'm sure it hasn't gotten cheaper.  Back when I looked it was way beyond what anybody pays for an LE6920, even a SOCOM version.  Plus, unless you enforce discipline on not using the 99% useless full auto function (what did you pay extra for that again?), it costs significantly more to feed them.  

As far as the rifles go the government has a program that loans out old rifles to PDs at no charge.  The way I understand it the pd enters into some kind of agreement that if the fed wants them back they have to be handed over in the same condition they were loaned out.  I think waterloo pd got some M16s through this program but the first thing they did was switch out the safety's to lock out full auto because there is no reason to have a full auto patrol rifle.  I think they may have gotten an M14 too but I'm not sure.

How much maintenance do you think these LE agencies will be spending? They already have some significant fleet budgets in most agencies that would acquire an MRAP, and the MRAP isn't a high use vehicle. I don't see the maintenance being anywhere near the issue that some of you claim it will be.
As for the rifles, theres a justifiable need for FA on some entry teams. Patrol guys who get the surplus M16s generally get the FA function locked out.
You want to talk expenses and incurring costs? My agency just killed getting us Aimpoints for patrol because they didn't want to buy BATTERIES for them. I tried to point out that you can leave the things on for an entire year but the cost of replacement batteries was their excuse for killing optics. I can't wait to get personal rifles and optics authorized



The Federal gov't price per M16 back in the day was a few hundred dollars. LE agencies buying new would probably pay about 50% more for a bare-bones patrolman rifle from some place like Bushmaster, to maybe double the Fed price for a Colt. Still a matter of a few hundred dollars up front cost for a basic rifle.

Ever try to use a Cougar or Maxxpro after letting it sit for 8-12 months without anyone doing any maintenance?

Hint:  It doesn't work out.

Second hint:  The regular maintenance isn't an optional item.  It's written into the contract they signed to get these things "free".  They're going to be in breach within 12 months of taking delivery.

I would believe that they'll get regular maintenance as in oil changes and such. I don't see them having to replace engines, transmissions or even tires on a  regular basis.

...because that'd be the only maintenance a vehicle like that needs.

The vehicle is the cheap part. The maintenance is the killer.

I'm still trying to figure out how an MRAP would make a good 'recovery' vehicle for floods/winter conditions... if you want to justify having one that is about the worst reason I can think of to have one.

Nah they totally work awesome on steep inclines and really soft soil...

There will surely be structured semi-annual, annual, and Bi-annual Preventive Maintenane and Services, that will include servicing/repairing hubs, likely changing some fluids as a result, etc..   My first 4 years in the Army that's pretty much what I did, on 5 ton and below vehicles.  We had a whole team in the motorpool dedicated to doing nothing but services, on vehicles that got driven maybe 200 to 250 miles per year.  They'd have been better off if they were driven every day.. we replaced a lot of seals due to dry rot from sitting around.   Military vehicles are not designed like civilian ones, and they take a lot of maintenance that a regular vehicle does not.  Another reason that, in the long run, an MRAP is ill-suited for police use compared to other vehicles that were designed for the purpose.  


If I'm remembering correctly, about a decade ago (the last time I used an Army ULLS-G system), we looked up a basic M-16A2, and it cost the US Army about $2K to buy one.  By now, and if you were to include the upgrades like rails and such, it would probably be about a thousand more.  

If they are using a government "loan out" program, that's great and all, but it still doesn't make it doctrinally sound to enter/clear buildings in a noncombatant heavy environment using full auto, doubly so given the nature of a police mission vs. that given to a Soldier.  To add to that, if you are on an entry team and "need" FA, you probably "need" something like an MP-5 anyway that is much better suited to close quarters combat than a "musket length" M-16.  It is still something that you have to compare "need" vs "want".   My later job in the Army was a Cavalry Scout Section Leader in the 82nd Airborne.  We had M-4's, mostly with Aimpoint CCO's.  Did we want something better like suppressed MP-5's?  Sure.. but it wasn't justifiable as a need, and since we conducted hundreds of patrols and raids using what we had in Aadamiyah and Sadr City for 15 months without a casualty in my section, I think it's justifiable to say that the M-4's worked out just fine.  On the police side of the house, I don't see how anything beyond an off the shelf name-your-brand "mil spec" M4 type rifle would really be a "need".  

In the end, training will more than fill the equipment gap, if it is done properly.  When I was playing OpFor at Polk, we had the oldest, crappiest equipment this side of the Marine Corps, and we regularly kicked the snot out of the rotational units, including Stryker brigades, with all their latest and greatest stuff.  

If its not being run down some MSR or out on daily patrol, its not going to need major work on a regular basis
What do YOU think it would need on a regular basis if its only getting a few miles on the odometer every month?

I recall how stuff was in the motor pool.
I still don't see where it'll be this huge dollar expense
Buying a Bearcat would probably equal about a decades worth of maintenance on an MRAP.

You were probably looking at the price of an M16 that includes the spare parts, all the doodads that came with the rifle, maybe a hard case.

You have cities with 100K to 200K in population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_Iowa_cities_by_population

Do you assume that major crime only happens in large cities?

He's probably saying violent crime and murder are about twice as prevalent.  At least, that is the FBI's report on cities with populations 250k+
FBI Crime Stats 2011 - Rates of crime per 100,000 inhabitants

No it doesn't but having a truck sitting unused in the motor pool isn't going to make a difference.

I think you might be missing the fact that the maintenance contract is an expense that is incurred regardless of what the vehicle needs.  It's the contractor's way of maintaining an income post-GWOT, they are just leaning forward in the saddle a bit.  They've already sold the vehicle to the gov't, now they're talking PD's into taking the vehicles on as long as they're willing to incur a $3K per year "maintenance contract", which as I pointed out before is very similar in practicality to a high dollar "warranty" that scammers try to sell people for their personal vehicles.  

If they DO do everything that the vehicle would normally need, it can get expensive.  Ever had a full service done on a diesel pickup?  That's a drop in the bucket next to what a large diesel vehicle can need.