Those of y'all that attend regular training, what type do you prefer?

1.  Training where you are being introduced to new tactics and techniques, or revisiting ones already learned?  Practicing them under the eye of an Instructor who will help fine tune your technique?

or

2.  What I call Performance-based training, where the majority of, or all of, the training is conducted as scorable drills. These drills usually have a time limit and are scored for pass or fail. You can take the drills home with you and practice them on your own.

or

3.  A combination of both styles

Semper Fi!

I would prefer a combo of both.

It's nice to have a mark to see where you are at to try to improve.

Combo.

The combo is the easy answer but- anyone with basic marksmanship can hit what they are shooting at. I need more work on technique and tactics and how to use them to the best of my ability  to win a fight. This can only be achieved with someone like you watching me do it. BTW hopefully you'll be seeing me in one of your classes after the Holidays

In my experience, even more so when teaching,,,,

The combo is a better route, all skill drills gets folks "bored" and some of them even turn that into a competition behind the instructors back

I usually do the technique/"tactics" enough times for the group to grasp it and than run a couple of scored drills.
The drills usually show who is or isn't paying attention/grasping the concept
Than I adjust from there

When I'm teaching soldiers if the "training" portion goes to long you lose people, especially for repitition after repetition

For dedicated folks who know exactly what they want and are "professional" you can go with straight training, but even than you run the risk of losing people's attention

It's probably different for civilians, since they are paying for the classes, but I would think they would still be happier and pay a little more attention if they are competing against each other with what they are learning

All of my instructor course were run like that, and I enjoyed the hell out of them, especially when I was on the class leaderboard

Good to go. What I have found is that quite often students practice poor techniques during scored drills with time limits.........cutting corners to ensure they make the time. It's a balance.

Would videoing the drills and allowing the student to review it with the instructor be possible?

 

Tom Givens does the combo model, but there are a lot of scored drills, and I really liked it.

I like combo classes... I have tailored my classes the same way.

In my 2-day AR15/Carbine class, Day 1 is spent learning various tactics, techniques, and movements along with firearm manipulation skills.  Day 2, incorporates timed drills that encompass the materials covered in Day 1 as a way for students to get a base line of their performance and generate friendly competition.  Hand out materials that students take with them, especially from my Precision Rifle class, outlines certain drills so folks can duplicate them on their own as a means to track improvement or lack thereof.

Glad you asked this question... I'm interested in the responses.

I am more interested in the skills and weapons manipulation - not much time in a one or two day class for both tactics and skills.

That's pretty much it, for them its a contest, from an instructor standpoint it's more of a check on learning

I love timed drills as it provides the opportunity to perform under stress.

I guess i'll be the sole voice of dissent here...  I prefer them separate.  I like classes where techniques are demonstrated, and practiced so people understand the drills/work.  But I also like separate "skill builder" classes where you work on known techniques and work toward perfection of said techniques under the critique of an instuctor.  Kinda like the shooting equivalent of "mat time" or "sparring time" in the martial arts.

Just a personal opinion, but I'm not really interested in the competitive / timed drills. Would rather have more tools & techniques in my toolbox, than bragging rights.

Exactly...  It is nice to have classes that time some drills so that you have a baseline.  However, I think a class with only timed drills would not be much of a class but rather a practice session.

I've seen folks do well during the day... but when placed under the stress of a timer, they get google-fingered.  What's interesting, is even the ones who express no interest in "beating themselves while on the clock" or doing well within the group, also fumble and lose concentration.  It's like the timer is of no concern to them UNTIL they hear the beep... just an observation.  

A timer is just ONE WAY of inducing some type of stress.  For me, it's not about bragging rights... it's about trying to create some type of stress and mental distraction... you're trying to do well but the thought of the timer lingers in your mind.

I'd say for myself, and maybe a couple others, that there are a few of us, maybe more, that have access to a range regularly and have the fundamentals, but would love to focus on tactics and squad style training while being given criticism by the instructor.

I always wanted to do force on force. No better way to know how close to death you where than being hit by speeding placstic bb's

I played woodsball paintball for years and developed team tactics with a bunch of the guys we played with. I think I have a fairly good understanding of the what/when/how/why but I'd love to get in more force on force exercises and have someone break down the outcomes.

I have several thousand rounds of Simunitions in multiple colors, just need the guns and/or conversion kits. If thought of doing force-on-force as Level 2 of my Residential Room Clearing & Response to Active Shooter course.

Conversion kits for popular semi-auto handguns run nearly $200 per kit.

I have the 9mm rounds.......thought of trading them for the .38 rounds as they can be used in an unmodified .38 or .357 revolver.

I'd love to do a Simmunitions FOF course.

When conducted well, FoF training is excellent. Like I said, my main issue is logistics.

I'll have a 9mm PDW soon and would LOVE to play with simunitions in it or my G19. I'd gladly pay $200 for a conversion setup to be able to participate in realistic FOF training even if I only was able to do so a couple times a year.

Can anyone buy the conversions?  I'd like to own one for my G19.  And the thought of an unmodified weapon being in the equation gives me bad feelings.

They aren't "LE Only" items, but most companies that sell them will only sell to LEO's......many will only sell to LE agencies and not to individuals.

If you want something, I can get it.

I'm a Federal Law Enforcement Training Center certified Simunitions Instructor. Safety is paramount during training of this sort. The training venue is swept thoroughly beforehand and all participants are searched and wanded prior to entry, and again each time they leave and re-enter. No unmodified firearms (all are cleared by the Instructors), ammunition, knives, batons, spray, etc. are allowed in the training venue.

If I were to do it with revolvers, I would supply the revolvers, they would be clearly marked, and only my revolvers would be allowed.

I would prefer to do it with conversion kits in the actual models of firearms that folks use, but the tactics are the same regardless of what type of handgun is being employed.

I'm looking at using a local facility. If it works out, I could rent paintball guns from them if needs be.

Option 1 would be my first choice.

Option 3 would be okay.

This.

Both, but leaning with quite a bit of the performance base. I really enjoy the competition and really wouldnt care if that was the whole class.

Wouldn't that work better with paintball guns?

I'm fine with inducing stress, and think it's a good idea for testing the techniques you've learned, I just don't have any interest in beating a timer. From your defense of it, I would assume you enjoy that which is also fine. Different strokes and all that.

The last class I took where we had competitive timed drills (most classes have non-competitive timed drills - we had timed drills in the course of fire for the lowlight class last Friday, but you were only competing with yourself), I only lost to our own Luke Crawford even though I was running a 3x ACOG vs his RDS at 7 yds (actually, I think I flubbed the mag change, IIRC). I'm not great at timed stuff, but I don't suck. Just not really interested.

+1

I'm headed out of state for a week long hunting trip. When I get back, I'm going to contact the 2 facilities I've been looking at. If I can get one locked on here soon, I'll start doing my Residential Room Clearing & Response to Active shooter course in January.

Level 1 is walk throughs and discussions; learning the basics

Level 2 is Force on Force

Level 3 is the live-fire shoothouse (this is NOT FoF)

Each level is a prerequisite for the following course.

On the subject of Drills or Timed Courses:
I have had plenty of military instruction with some practical application, but have not been practicing it since leaving the Corps. So to sharpen skills and have somebody watching me so anything I might be doing wrong is corrected has a huge value. Thinking that no matter what I remembered, what I was doing right, what I was doing wrong, even a basic course would have at least some value if nothing else but to get the rust off and to measure where I was actually at could not hurt. So I took Shep's two day Intro to AR course. The course was well thought out and Shep didn't leave anybody behind even though some of us knew what he was teaching. This had an added advantage for me for whether I had forgotten it or never learned it, there was value here as I learned something new while he was going over something very basic for a true beginner. The second day of course was the meat of what I was looking for with more drills and practice shooting with the complex malfunctions under pressure being one of the high points for me. Of course day two builds on day one and again was well thought out.

Now for my main point, I took another AR course after that from a different instructor and learned some additional useable techniques but the main thing I really got from it was how much I was able to get from the course mainly because I had taken Intro to AR with Shep. Basically the type of drills and how they build on each other that Shep taught really made it easier for me to get more out of the second course.

Following this, I took Shep's Team Combat Carbine Course. Better come zeroed as there is no messing around with basics. I was right at home with the warm up and skill level evaluation drills Shep started with because they were based on drills already practiced. At this point the light bulb came on as I watched some in the relay in front of me having difficulty following some commands and preforming some drills. Everybody had skills at this class, but it appeared some had not practiced doing drills so they were missing some of the idea behind the drill IE its purpose. Of course all of us were making mistakes (or we would not need the course), but I could tell who had done drills before and who hadn't. When the instructors were satisfied the relays were ready, the course really got started and the fun and trust started.

So I do agree there needs to be a balance and here is the BUT, the balance depends on two things: The course purpose and attendees skill level.
At Intro to AR, toward the end of the day we fired a timed drill to get a baseline and ended with a skill drill to show that no matter how much one thought they were messing up, that they really did learn something and could do it. During this course, a whole second day of timed problems would have been a waste. With Team CCC, drills were for fundamentals and the rest was practical team tactics with accuracy as the measure (being in the body box) not hurrying to have the best time. The idea being to do it right together, get the bad guys, and survive. Survival doesn't have to be a timed event. Does time matter it does, but many times doing it right with the proper technique at the correct time can be more important then doing it sloppy but 3 seconds faster. Besides correct speed comes from proper practice not from just doing it as fast as one can improperly or cutting corners.

I am with CPL0313 in thinking that video could really help. Additionally too many timed events also cuts into the training time as the course has to be properly setup and returned to original each time if its to be timed and scored for each student especially if it involves anything other then being on a straight firing line where only one student can go at a time.

So for basic courses, drills and practice with a little measure of where one is toward the end of the course would work well. More advanced courses with more challenges with either timing or scoring or both would be nice. After taking training courses, I have become a big believer in courses that build on one another mainly because it is impossible even in a weekly course to teach it all during one course.

I wonder how many of us already have paintball guns? Next question, does Simunitions require all participates to wear body armor?

I am wondering also if paintball might teach bad habits? Years ago, the paintball team I played on was invited to be the aggressors against either the Riverdale PD or Clayton County SD (or a mix of both). The Officers were using realistic tactics where we ended up using paintball team tactics IE keep the weakest point pinned down while two of us rush him. Worst case is always a one for one trade off of men with us now holding that spot and pushing forward on the next weak point. Every engagement ended with us having at least a 3 to 1 advantage (if not more) when the last Officer was left. The down side was it was more like middle east attackers not caring if they died or not attacking the Officers each time. So all they ready got out of the training was knowing what it would be like to take on a bunch of organized team playing radicals. Lastly the real downside is that neither paintballs or Simunitions go through walls or thick glass where as bullets do. In a real house if you see the bad guy's shadow at a hall or door junction, you can measure back 6 inches so you don't hit the stud and shoot him through the wall! In paintball and Simunitions, the building is simulating all concrete whether it is or isn't.

Would a bulk order get any price break as there are a bunch of Glock users?

Simunitions "requires" a full helmet, throat and groin protection. Everything else is optional. I wear the minimum.....padding up like the Michelin Man degrades one of the good training points of Simunitions; hits hurt but I can still function and fight.

There is usually a discount for a multiple unit order.

I'm in if you can get a M&P conversion, and I'm also down for L2 & L3 AS/RC. I may retake L1 depending on cost and schedule.

They make conversion kits for the M&P series of pistols.

In regards to the comment of why not use paintball guns, my answer is because they suck at replicating my personal firearm I'll be using in real life. Buying a simunition conversion would be far cheaper and would allow me to keep a familiar platform in my hands while training.

I used to play a lot of paintball and loved it, but that's not the experience I want out of paid training.

I'll take a M&P or a Sig P229 conversion if available.

Hmmmmmm........group buy.........

No doubt !!! FOF is when people tend to fold under the stress of something shooting back and go full retard A lot different than paper