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Posted: 12/10/2012 6:36:51 AM EST
This was cross posted all over Arfcom in at least 5 different places so most of y'all have probably seen it. I just don't get what is so special about this gun. Sure its got a cool rail, not like we already have 10 others on the market that do the same thing. The trigger is nice. But what makes it worth over 2 grand? Would any of y'all pay that for this gun? And WTF is up with this video? Guys running around with paintball masks on?


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Posted: 12/10/2012 6:52:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gentleman4561:
But what makes it worth over 2 grand?


I don't know if it makes it worth over $2k, but what makes it cost over $2k is simple business strategy.
1. Put names behind it for the Kool-Aid kids
2. Put designs & products on it that are one of kind and so unique that you can't get them elsewhere or on other products.
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Posted: 12/10/2012 7:00:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gentleman4561:
Guys running around with paintball masks on?


Did you not notice they were running simunitions at the end?
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Posted: 12/10/2012 7:10:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By poison123:
Originally Posted By Gentleman4561:
Guys running around with paintball masks on?


Did you not notice they were running simunitions at the end?

Yes I did. But what does that have to do with the quality of the rifle? Hell at least its cheaper than his buddy Costas rifle from LaRue.
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Posted: 12/10/2012 7:35:29 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gentleman4561:

Originally Posted By poison123:
Originally Posted By Gentleman4561:
Guys running around with paintball masks on?


Did you not notice they were running simunitions at the end?

Yes I did. But what does that have to do with the quality of the rifle? Hell at least its cheaper than his buddy Costas rifle from LaRue.


You asked the question of why some had paintball masks on. I was answering that.
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Posted: 12/10/2012 7:38:07 AM EST
In before "what's your life worth?"

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Posted: 12/10/2012 7:54:13 AM EST


Merchandising!!
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Posted: 12/10/2012 8:03:08 AM EST
lol.....i was thinking the same thing

Originally Posted By poison123:
Originally Posted By Gentleman4561:

Originally Posted By poison123:
Originally Posted By Gentleman4561:
Guys running around with paintball masks on?


Did you not notice they were running simunitions at the end?

Yes I did. But what does that have to do with the quality of the rifle? Hell at least its cheaper than his buddy Costas rifle from LaRue.


You asked the question of why some had paintball masks on. I was answering that.


“Most people are only alive because it’s illegal to shoot them.”

Too much crap, not enough fans....
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Posted: 12/10/2012 8:12:12 AM EST
I have quite a few ARs that are $2,000. Look at LaRue rifles, all of them are $2,000+ even the DI guns running 5.56. Most LWRCs are $2,000+ as well. If you look at Pat Roger's BCM rifle, it isnt' anything special and it is $2,000 as well.

It seems that any rifle with somones name attached to it is going to cost $1800-$3000 just because they know they can get it. Better to start high and put it on sale later if if doesn't sell. If you list it too cheap and sell out in a week, you left a lot of money on the table.
I do my best to believe the crap in your posts.....
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Posted: 12/10/2012 8:54:19 AM EST
It seems like these guys are pimping some new carbine every few months.
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Posted: 12/10/2012 8:56:12 AM EST
If I were going to spend ~$1900 on an AR, I would go ahead and save an extra two months and get a SCAR.

But that's just me.
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Posted: 12/10/2012 9:39:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2012 9:41:50 AM EST by Mad-Machinist]
Meh....If I was gonna spend 2 grand on an AR.....I'd buy an upper reciever and charging handle from Range Tool.....A TM lower, a nice barrel blank from one of several vendors and an extension from Whitworth tool, a bolt from Barnes Precision.......a good milspec LPK that could be fitted/polished and probably a magpul adjustable stock.....and a Midwest industries GEN II SS series free float rifle length handguard and a set of rail mounted BUIS to be determined......and put a grand+ back in my pocket
and get to work in the shop and build it.....I can assure you...any barrel I make is a hell of a lot more concentric and on spec that the production barrels they are pulling out of the crate where they came from what ever manufacturer made that months run of them......

Honestly I'd probably go with a Green Mountian blank as I have had exceptional results with every one I have used......I've had a .45 ACP upper shooting 1.5 inch groups at 50 yards out of a GM barrel.......and a 1/12 twist 5.56 I built for a friend will shoot 1/2 MOA all day long.......

The point I'm making is the average Joe with a little research and a little work can build a rifle that will rival any of these 2k AR's for a HELL of a lot less.......

I nearly go into hysterics laughing when I look at the latest crop of flash supressors/muzzle breaks on the market and the associated prices......90 % of the innnovations I see on the market are just clever marketing......couple years back I did a compensator for a friends Glock 22 that was so effective we had to put a 13 pound recoil spring in it to make it cycle.......and it had less muzzle flip with major power factor loads than a Ruger 22 pistol.....

Damn......think I shut up now and eat my McRib........
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Posted: 12/10/2012 9:41:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2012 9:43:03 AM EST by feeling_infringed]
Originally Posted By Gentleman4561:
But what makes it worth over 2 grand? Would any of y'all pay that for this gun?


Personally, I don't need another AR, so no.

Add up the price of an itemized listing of ALL the add on parts and how close do you get to $2k? Geisselle super modular rail has an msrp of $350+, how much do the trigger, sights, stock, flashlight, thorntail mount, bcm charging handle, end plate, grip, new whizz bang bcm comp etc.... all cost? I'd bet you'd get pretty close to $2k overall rather quickly. Any difference in cost and call it paying for kool aid or the price of convenience, does it really matter...

Bottom line, don't like it, don't buy it, but I bet many people will.

Glad to see another offering on the market even if I won't be purchasing it.
"...... the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
^ Why is that so effing hard for some people to understand....
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Posted: 12/10/2012 10:19:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/10/2012 10:21:18 AM EST by kylestyle]
this is kind of like Haley's glock skimmer trigger, overpricing on something that is accessible else where for cheaper

he and Costa's product whoring has got a little out of hand
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Posted: 12/10/2012 10:58:55 AM EST
Damn, wrong thread
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Posted: 12/10/2012 12:07:29 PM EST
Another spin on this
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Posted: 12/10/2012 1:16:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By coastal_shredder:
Another spin on this





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Posted: 12/10/2012 2:35:09 PM EST
Yep- dripping with marketing and will likely net the makers a tidy margin, almost like they planned it that way. You can't rape the willing!
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Posted: 12/10/2012 3:16:25 PM EST
Although I do always seem to forget the 11% off the top BATF excise tax for complete guns........it really dosen't help the margin....
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Posted: 12/10/2012 6:35:00 PM EST
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Posted: 12/10/2012 6:59:16 PM EST
Do they think they are seals or SFOD-D or something?

I'd rather use that money on my mortgage.
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Posted: 12/11/2012 2:41:11 AM EST
so is BCM not a quality manufacturer any longer because it looks like they assembled a rifle with all first rate parts to me, is it worth 2k to someone that wants a top shelf BCM rifle it is. Rainier Arms sells a rifle on par by the specs. for 1,400 if i remember right and that's priced right imho. just a thought, nobody here bitches about Larue, Noveke, etc... prices when they sell their rifles. i understand ARFCOM is couche commando central, but for the guy that starts out and buys a DPMS rifle, everyone corrects him, then a well established company known for Colt quality weapons comes out with a new rifle, then everyone that will buy one is a sucker i'm sure when you guys see someone with Starbucks coffee, the arguement is made to said coffee drinker that McD's has just a good a coffee and that they are paying to much, right lol at all of this

i'm seriously asking here
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Posted: 12/11/2012 4:14:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/11/2012 4:20:03 AM EST by Mad-Machinist]
I never said BCM wasn't a quality manufactureer...I just know I can and HAVE built rifles of similiar or better quality for significantly less money....I'm just one of those people who isn't impressed by brand names...everyone talks about how great so and so bolt carrier is......I buy them from a company that makes 30,000 a month and that is ALL they make, and I can sit down with measuring equipment and check them...they are consistently dead nuts on spec and far more concentric than any other carrier I have ever tested. I just see in a lot of cases where people on this and other forums equate clever marketing with quaility...it ain't necessarily so........
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Posted: 12/11/2012 4:44:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
I never said BCM wasn't a quality manufactureer...I just know I can and HAVE built rifles of similiar or better quality for significantly less money....I'm just one of those people who isn't impressed by brand names...everyone talks about how great so and so bolt carrier is......I buy them from a company that makes 30,000 a month and that is ALL they make, and I can sit down with measuring equipment and check them...they are consistently dead nuts on spec and far more concentric than any other carrier I have ever tested. I just see in a lot of cases where people on this and other forums equate clever marketing with quaility...it ain't necessarily so........


What company for the BCG?
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Posted: 12/11/2012 5:00:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
I never said BCM wasn't a quality manufactureer...I just know I can and HAVE built rifles of similiar or better quality for significantly less money....I'm just one of those people who isn't impressed by brand names...everyone talks about how great so and so bolt carrier is......I buy them from a company that makes 30,000 a month and that is ALL they make, and I can sit down with measuring equipment and check them...they are consistently dead nuts on spec and far more concentric than any other carrier I have ever tested. I just see in a lot of cases where people on this and other forums equate clever marketing with quaility...it ain't necessarily so........


Most of us dont have the background and ability that you do though, so it can sometimes be tough to separate whats real and whats a gimmick.
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Posted: 12/11/2012 5:12:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
I never said BCM wasn't a quality manufactureer...I just know I can and HAVE built rifles of similiar or better quality for significantly less money....I'm just one of those people who isn't impressed by brand names...everyone talks about how great so and so bolt carrier is......I buy them from a company that makes 30,000 a month and that is ALL they make, and I can sit down with measuring equipment and check them...they are consistently dead nuts on spec and far more concentric than any other carrier I have ever tested. I just see in a lot of cases where people on this and other forums equate clever marketing with quaility...it ain't necessarily so........


i guess i didn't make myself clear, my point was seems there's alot of pounding on BCM because their rifle is at the 2k mark, when other top companies sell for the same and noboby says anything about them. that's why i said something about Rainier Arms having a rifle with VERY similiar specs at about 500 bucks cheaper.

i agree with your example of the rifle you could assemble from other quality parts, and saving cash, that's what i've been attempting to do for a while now. i also like the pride when a rifle turns out well. i don't think anyone is questioning BCM and their level of quality, i just think they have set a level of quality and now can charge for it, IF the consumer wishes to pay for said name. people around here have been paying for LaRue and Noveske and they charge a premium, nobody says a word because it's understood the level of quality is there, i just fail to see the difference from one quality company to the next. that's all i'm saying
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Posted: 12/11/2012 5:54:16 AM EST
I hear what you're saying. I remember when Palmetto used to be cheap. They've raised their prices as their popularity rises. My SBR was built from LMT, mega, and RRA parts, and its my favorite rifle. Not including the stamp, I think I have $874 in it, with a 2 stage trigger. I have a RRA NM that I got when they first came out. It has their first logo on it, and I love that gun, and paid around $800 for it.

I won't ever buy something just because of the name, like noveske or colt. Clyde has all these LEO deals on ARs, but I can't get LEO price on M&Ps for much cheaper, yet I will continue building my own stuff because I can price it out cheaper, and I enjoy doing it.

Hell, even if I won the lotto, I still don't think I could pay that much for a big name. I'm so used to being poor, it seems natural now to value shop.
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Posted: 12/11/2012 7:06:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By votefromrooftops:
Originally Posted By Mad-Machinist:
I never said BCM wasn't a quality manufactureer...I just know I can and HAVE built rifles of similiar or better quality for significantly less money....I'm just one of those people who isn't impressed by brand names...everyone talks about how great so and so bolt carrier is......I buy them from a company that makes 30,000 a month and that is ALL they make, and I can sit down with measuring equipment and check them...they are consistently dead nuts on spec and far more concentric than any other carrier I have ever tested. I just see in a lot of cases where people on this and other forums equate clever marketing with quaility...it ain't necessarily so........


i guess i didn't make myself clear, my point was seems there's alot of pounding on BCM because their rifle is at the 2k mark, when other top companies sell for the same and noboby says anything about them. that's why i said something about Rainier Arms having a rifle with VERY similiar specs at about 500 bucks cheaper.

i agree with your example of the rifle you could assemble from other quality parts, and saving cash, that's what i've been attempting to do for a while now. i also like the pride when a rifle turns out well. i don't think anyone is questioning BCM and their level of quality, i just think they have set a level of quality and now can charge for it, IF the consumer wishes to pay for said name. people around here have been paying for LaRue and Noveske and they charge a premium, nobody says a word because it's understood the level of quality is there, i just fail to see the difference from one quality company to the next. that's all i'm saying

I am not saying that the BCM isn't a quality rifle. I just don't see my self paying over 2 grand for it. Same thing with a LaRue OBR. I would build one my self on a Maten upper and lower. Like you mentioned you can find a Noveske for a good deal cheaper with similar specs. But the Haley fan boys will be all over this.
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Posted: 12/11/2012 7:20:06 AM EST
This is a breakdown of the rifle done on another forum.


uppliers for rifle are: BCM, Geissele, HS, G&R

Upper:
Geissele SMR (Price based on 13") $345
BCM 14.5" Standard Barrel mid $229
BCM Comp Mod 1 $95
BCM gas block $45
BCM upper receiver $100
BCM BCG $160
BCM CH $45
Troy sights $218
Inforce w/mount $149

= $1386

Lower:
BCM lower w/ ALG ACT $425
BCM B5 stock $58

= $483

Grand total: $1869
Remember, shipping is not included for anything. Optional assembly fee is not included. Transfer fee not included. Cerakote, roughly $200 is not included. People always say "I can build it cheaper.." But you get the picture. I'm talking about part for part build.


Not every AR will fit everyone's budget or preferences. I use to be excited to defend why my Noveske and SR15 are worth every cent and how when you break them down they are more competitively priced than any other AR. Some people are willing and able to purchase a $2k AR, and some aren't. Those that won't/can't are usually fueled by cognitive dissonance.

There is a reason why Haley/Costa/Vickers run certain manufacturers and not others. When you run 100k+ rounds a year through guns the disparity between what works and what doesn't is painfully obvious.

Don't want to buy the Jack Rifle? Then don't.
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Posted: 12/11/2012 7:46:50 AM EST
I don't post that much here, but here goes:

I think it's reasonable that a "signature" anything will cost a little more. That's just part of the marketing. Does a King Ranch Ford truck cost more? Yup!. Does an Eddie Bauer Ford Expedition cost more? Yup! Can you build a rifle like the "Jack" carbine for less than $2k? Yup! Will it BE the Haley signature BCM "Jack" rifle? No. What's wrong with someone having something nice, limited edition, or "signature?"

I've seen a lot of this "same or better for less" mentality on the GON forum too. It's almost like Georgia gun owners take pride in their "un-brand-snobbishness" to the point that they'll buy lesser quality just to prove that they're not a brand snob. That's ridiculous! You can have a shop (I worked in one for 7 years) with a shelf full of Noveske, Colt, Daniel Defense and KAC, and you'll still have most guys coming in asking for DPMS because it's "just as good as" without paying for "The Name." That is flat out horse shit!

Spec sheets and the TDP is just a starting point, and yet most commercial AR manufacturers can't even comply to that.

Here's just a little bit of recent personal experience on the issue:

A buddy of mine was looking for a couple AR's for he and his dad. I told him I'd keep an eye out for deals. Well, a couple months ago PSA had deals on their M4 madness uppers for $269. I had no personal experience with PSA, but had read a lot of good things and they seemed to check all the right boxes for a basic carbine (1:7, chrome lined, M4 feedramps, 4150 barrel steel, MP barrel, Carpenter 158 bolt, MP bolt, etc). I let him know and he grabbed four of them, along with PSA stripped lowers, LPK's, BCG's, etc. We built all four of the rifles together and encountered a couple issues with the threads on 3 of the castle nuts along with the slots for the spanner wrench being cut incorrectly so that the wrench would not go into the slots. That seemed pretty minor and I was ok with them as a budget option (we had about $600 EA in the complete rifles). Then, it came time to function test them. Trigger pins walking badly (like 1/3 of the way out of the receiver after a 30rd mag), and interference between the BCG and the selector resulting in it being very difficult to put the weapon on safe with the bolt locked open.

Now, contrasting this with my 2 Daniel Defense rifles, one of which I built and the other, which is a factory-built MK18. No issues with either rifle. Everything is as smooth as silk and all the parts are made to the proper dimensions.

When dealing with mechanical things (tools, guns) you really do get what you pay for. Now, I believe there is a point of diminishing returns with some "custom" firearms manufacturers, but in the mainstream production market, you get what you pay for.

As far as "building" an AR for yourself goes:
1) it's only as good as the quality of the parts you put in it...ALL the parts.
2) It's only as good as the tools you have to properly assemble it
3) it's only as good as your knowlege/skill of HOW to properly assemble it (torque specs, staking, etc)

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Posted: 12/11/2012 9:09:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/11/2012 9:11:30 AM EST by feeling_infringed]
Originally Posted By kennym:
This is a breakdown of the rifle done on another forum.


uppliers for rifle are: BCM, Geissele, HS, G&R

Upper:
Geissele SMR (Price based on 13") $345
BCM 14.5" Standard Barrel mid $229
BCM Comp Mod 1 $95
BCM gas block $45
BCM upper receiver $100
BCM BCG $160
BCM CH $45
Troy sights $218
Inforce w/mount $149

= $1386

Lower:
BCM lower w/ ALG ACT $425
BCM B5 stock $58

= $483

Grand total: $1869
Remember, shipping is not included for anything. Optional assembly fee is not included. Transfer fee not included. Cerakote, roughly $200 is not included. People always say "I can build it cheaper.." But you get the picture. I'm talking about part for part build.


Not every AR will fit everyone's budget or preferences. I use to be excited to defend why my Noveske and SR15 are worth every cent and how when you break them down they are more competitively priced than any other AR. Some people are willing and able to purchase a $2k AR, and some aren't. Those that won't/can't are usually fueled by cognitive dissonance.

There is a reason why Haley/Costa/Vickers run certain manufacturers and not others. When you run 100k+ rounds a year through guns the disparity between what works and what doesn't is painfully obvious.

Don't want to buy the Jack Rifle? Then don't.


Good post. I'd say that breaks down pretty damn close to $2k. How could it be? It's just a fan boys rifle

All too often folks like to compare less expensive products to more expensive ones, and then say the more expensive one isn't worth it or is just plain stupid. Don't get me wrong, it may not be worth it to that person, but it doesn't mean the product isn't worth that much in the marketplace. It's hard not to make indirect comparisons since there are so many manufacturers, accessories and varying degrees of quality on the market.

All too often people wonder why their apple doesn't taste like an orange, yet they chose the apple

This rifle will make a good purchase for someone that wanted the parts that were included in the build. It will also make a great buy for someone that doesn't want to take the time (or doesn't know how) to spec out their own rifle and put it together themselves. Some people find great value in the fact they didn't have to put it all together themselves and enjoy the peice of mind knowing they bought something of high quality.

When indirect comparisons are used to formulate an argument, it loses merit and becomes quite diluted.

While I'm not a fan boy, I'm also not a Haley Hater, but I do like to play devil's advocate.

The fact is, there are many rifles on the market these days that are sold in a 'package' deal. Whether it's a pre-built upper comprised of 1000 different combinations, a complete firearm package put together by Daniel Defense, something that's been endorsed like the the BCM EAG rifle or this new "Jack rifle", it can be very cumbersome to make an accuarte comparison of products when trying to decide what to buy. My advice to my FIL recently was to first decide what accessories you want on your rifle, then move towards comparing product offerings from different brands and look at the package 'deals'. More often than not, the specific accessories included on a package are what dicatate its cost.

"...... the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
^ Why is that so effing hard for some people to understand....
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Posted: 12/11/2012 9:53:24 AM EST
all in all it's a pretty good bang for the buck, but it's needs the 13" geissele rail instead of the 10"
with that one change it would be a strong contender for an out of the box work rig
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Posted: 12/11/2012 11:44:03 AM EST
I'm a fan of the if you want it and can afford it, go ahead and buy it if it makes you happy. Its the joys of capitalism. Just because I won't do the same shouldn't matter. I want a ruger gunsite, but until I can afford it, I'll continue to hunt with my marlin 336.
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Posted: 12/12/2012 7:50:01 AM EST
What is the significance of the word "Jack"?
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Posted: 12/12/2012 8:27:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/12/2012 8:34:20 AM EST by 00bullitt]
One thing you guys need to consider is Federal Excise Tax (FET). Thats 11% added to cost of the build.
-Amateurs do it til they get it right. Professionals do it til they can't get it wrong.-

-Your worst needs to be better than their best.-
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Posted: 12/13/2012 6:49:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By ra2bach:
What is the significance of the word "Jack"?


Maybe "jack of all trades" as in a good multipurpose carbine.

Just guessing.
RIP eodtech 2000
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Posted: 12/13/2012 7:17:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By bmick325:
Originally Posted By ra2bach:
What is the significance of the word "Jack"?


Maybe "jack of all trades" as in a good multipurpose carbine.

Just guessing.


I would hope they had better marketing than that. The complete phrase is, "jack of all trades, matter of NONE"
Originally Posted By ExKalifornian:
and you can burn the whole state down as far as Im concerned. Kalifornia aint got Shit on The Great State of Georgia.
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Posted: 12/13/2012 7:18:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By gajeep94yj:
Originally Posted By bmick325:
Originally Posted By ra2bach:
What is the significance of the word "Jack"?


Maybe "jack of all trades" as in a good multipurpose carbine.

Just guessing.


I would hope they had better marketing than that. The complete phrase is, "jack of all trades, matter of NONE"

It's "Master" of none.
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Posted: 12/13/2012 7:19:50 AM EST
Damn auto correct. You even quoted it before i had a chance to edit it!
Originally Posted By ExKalifornian:
and you can burn the whole state down as far as Im concerned. Kalifornia aint got Shit on The Great State of Georgia.
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Posted: 12/13/2012 8:12:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By cpl0313:

Originally Posted By gajeep94yj:
Originally Posted By bmick325:
Originally Posted By ra2bach:
What is the significance of the word "Jack"?


Maybe "jack of all trades" as in a good multipurpose carbine.

Just guessing.


I would hope they had better marketing than that. The complete phrase is, "jack of all trades, matter of NONE"

It's "Master" of none.


Their marketing is spot on. The next generation of got-to-have-it $2,000.00 + carbines will address individual missions.
RIP eodtech 2000
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