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http://www.coloradohpjunkies.com/forums/images/smilies/this_thread_is_worthless_without_pics.gif Edit: Upload Pics to Photobucket "Copy & Paste" IMG URL Or email them and I will post them for you. Thanks, I put some pics in for ya. Sorry, they are not in order. |
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I have built a similar structure as an underground shooting range. 25 yards of lane plus the shooting area. If you don't figure out some ventilation, the difference in temp between the ground and air will eat the thing....;)
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I have built a similar structure as an underground shooting range. 25 yards of lane plus the shooting area. If you don't figure out some ventilation, the difference in temp between the ground and air will eat the thing....;) Pictures? |
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Thanks.
I wanted to put this online because in my search for how to build a strong, cheap shelter, I was not the only one looking. You should not have to have a bunch of money sitting around for your family to be safe. If you buy a lot of the studs and OSB at auctions, etc., you can save even more money. I think $700 is cheap compared to the alternatives. And the span ratings for the roof beams are "safe" load limits. If a tree were to fall directly on the shelter, it should be able to take it. Notice from the pics, it is built into the side of a hill, so it CANNOT flood during a heavy rain storm. In fast, in the last 24 hours, we received just under 2.5 inches of rain, and it was perfectly dry in the shelter. |
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I am reminded of the "Utah Family" shelter from the nuclear survival books at the library. They built stuff using field expedited materials, but, it was only for limited time while earth/material could be cleared away that was affected by fall out.
I am a little concerned that you are using OSB for the walls underground, but, maybe thats not really a problem. Maybe a couple of thin coats of fence stain would help control/minimize moisture/rot ??? Just a thought. Ventilation is going to be a big issue at some point, as others have pointed out... but, it all depends on how long folks are in there as well as what you keep in it. Use sealed 12vdc batteries, not traditional lead-acid as they tend to give off fumes. |
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I am reminded of the "Utah Family" shelter from the nuclear survival books at the library. They built stuff using field expedited materials, but, it was only for limited time while earth/material could be cleared away that was affected by fall out. I am a little concerned that you are using OSB for the walls underground, but, maybe thats not really a problem. Maybe a couple of thin coats of fence stain would help control/minimize moisture/rot ??? Just a thought. I 'painted' the OSB with an asphalt based foundation coating, followed by 3 mil plastic. (See the description and the pics) Water should never touch the OSB. Ventilation is going to be a big issue at some point, as others have pointed out... but, it all depends on how long folks are in there as well as what you keep in it. I mentioned that if you make doors, you need a ventilation system. Use sealed 12vdc batteries, not traditional lead-acid as they tend to give off fumes. This is correct, forgot to mention that. |
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You should cross post this in SF What is "SF"?? Sorry for the stupid question. |
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Good work. Scrap cardboard will protect your poly film when backfilling and wont rot anymore than the dirt that is on top of it. Foam insulation board is also rediculously cheap, would help protect the poly and slow thermal exchange reducing condensation. Maybe a layer of foam board layed over the roofing sealer(bonded by virtue of the asphaltic sealer) and then the poly. A solar powered roof vent would be great although would add considerably to your expense, but adding a simply roof vent and an inlet vent in your door would provide some convection ventilation .
I have been mentally designing a similar structure, and will likely build one in the near future. Thanks very much for your time and detailed instructions, great job very inspirational. |
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Good work. Scrap cardboard will protect your poly film when backfilling and wont rot anymore than the dirt that is on top of it. Foam insulation board is also rediculously cheap, would help protect the poly and slow thermal exchange reducing condensation. Maybe a layer of foam board layed over the roofing sealer(bonded by virtue of the asphaltic sealer) and then the poly. A solar powered roof vent would be great although would add considerably to your expense, but adding a simply roof vent and an inlet vent in your door would provide some convection ventilation . I have been mentally designing a similar structure, and will likely build one in the near future. Thanks very much for your time and detailed instructions, great job very inspirational. If what I did can help any 1 family have a safe place to go, then the time it took to put it into writing is WELL worth it. P.S. The reason why I didn't put a roof vent in is that I did not want something there to leak. I knew that with 2 sealed doors, I would need power ventilation anyway. I am going to use pvc pipe that I will route in the hallway (2 pipes: intake and exhaust) and use a 12 volt air mattress pump that I ordered on Amazon for 8 bucks. I don't know the CFM rating, but those things blow! The PVC pipes will exit at the end of the hall way (the part NOT under-ground), out the steel 'siding' with regular house type water-proofing procedures. I don't yet know how long my 12 volt system will run that pump, but I am probably going to wire in a dimmer switch to control the flow. I think wide open is a little extreme. I may do some calculations blowing up an air mattress with the pump to roughly figure its output capability. I am shooting for 75-100 CFM for my family of 3. Great idea with the cardboard. I actually want to keep the inside of the shelter as close to ground temp as possible for it to double as a root cellar. I may need a de-humidifier to control humidity levels. |
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Very nice. The only thing I may have done differently is used 2 x 8's instead of 2 x 6's for the walls. Also might add solid bridging between the studs at the halfway point to help distribute the load in the center of the wall span.
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The part about the OSB was in relation to both the inside as well as the outside. I apologize for not being clear when I posted previously. (my bad)
Here is why I ask, if "water" (through any type of run off or moisture) gets into the wood from the inside, how do you plan to control it? This may actually NOT be a problem, but, I am very curious as to what you have heard. I am building an ice fishing house this summer and I am torn between OSB and plywood. Quoted:
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I am reminded of the "Utah Family" shelter from the nuclear survival books at the library. They built stuff using field expedited materials, but, it was only for limited time while earth/material could be cleared away that was affected by fall out. I am a little concerned that you are using OSB for the walls underground, but, maybe thats not really a problem. Maybe a couple of thin coats of fence stain would help control/minimize moisture/rot ??? Just a thought. I 'painted' the OSB with an asphalt based foundation coating, followed by 3 mil plastic. (See the description and the pics) Water should never touch the OSB. Ventilation is going to be a big issue at some point, as others have pointed out... but, it all depends on how long folks are in there as well as what you keep in it. I mentioned that if you make doors, you need a ventilation system. Use sealed 12vdc batteries, not traditional lead-acid as they tend to give off fumes. This is correct, forgot to mention that. |
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Very nice. The only thing I may have done differently is used 2 x 8's instead of 2 x 6's for the walls. Also might add solid bridging between the studs at the halfway point to help distribute the load in the center of the wall span. I was wondering about this as well. But, 1-foot spacing on the 2x6 is a better for the plywood/OSB he has on top and sides for helping carry the load. Reduces any additional flexing and stressing across the unsupported spans. I do like the idea of the cross braces, if for no other reason then to prevent any type of "buckleing" that might occur. Wouldn't take many, maybe 2 or three every other pair. When going back and thinking if a "tree" landed on top, I guess a better question is how big are the trees adjacent to the structure that would be capable of falling? My comments are "tweeks" and should not be regarded as a critique of the fine work. From my "back of the napkin" calculations, you could drive a full size car on top of it and not worry. |
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The part about the OSB was in relation to both the inside as well as the outside. I apologize for not being clear when I posted previously. (my bad) Here is why I ask, if "water" (through any type of run off or moisture) gets into the wood from the inside, how do you plan to control it? This may actually NOT be a problem, but, I am very curious as to what you have heard. I am building an ice fishing house this summer and I am torn between OSB and plywood. Quoted:
Quoted:
I am reminded of the "Utah Family" shelter from the nuclear survival books at the library. They built stuff using field expedited materials, but, it was only for limited time while earth/material could be cleared away that was affected by fall out. I am a little concerned that you are using OSB for the walls underground, but, maybe thats not really a problem. Maybe a couple of thin coats of fence stain would help control/minimize moisture/rot ??? Just a thought. I 'painted' the OSB with an asphalt based foundation coating, followed by 3 mil plastic. (See the description and the pics) Water should never touch the OSB. Ventilation is going to be a big issue at some point, as others have pointed out... but, it all depends on how long folks are in there as well as what you keep in it. I mentioned that if you make doors, you need a ventilation system. Use sealed 12vdc batteries, not traditional lead-acid as they tend to give off fumes. This is correct, forgot to mention that. Run-off water will not be able to enter the shelter unless all the water-proofing fails. The shelter is built in to the side of a hill (at the top), and with how I did the landscaping after back-fill, it cannot run in from the surface. For your ice-house: go treated plywood for the floor. With the snow, road spray, and constant heat/cold cycles, you will be happy with treated. All the ice-houses I have ever seen that don't use treated only last a few years. |
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cool! post some pics of the finished product once you're done.
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Did you do any installation of drain tile, or some other means of drawing ground water away from the structure?
Or back fill regular soil right up around it? Some 4" perforated corrugated polymer drain tile that day-lights out the side of the hill with a 2% slope back to front, and back fill about 12" thick layer of drain rock around the outside of the shelter would vastly increase the life-span of your shelter. Soil retains moisture, and no matter how well waterproofing is done, no matter how many layers or products used, eventually moisture can get through (in my experience). Drain tile would be a very cheap means of ensuring moisture isn't constantly retained in the soil and held right up against the wooden exterior. Since it's on a hillside, and you can day-light the drain downhill you don't need anything like a sump pump to keep draw the water away... Gravity would do all the work for you. |
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Did you do any installation of drain tile, or some other means of drawing ground water away from the structure? Yes, see "Waterproofing" section. Or back fill regular soil right up around it? Yes, working on pics. Soil back filled all around with approx 2ft soil on top. Some 4" perforated corrugated polymer drain tile that day-lights out the side of the hill with a 2% slope back to front, and back fill about 12" thick layer of drain rock around the outside of the shelter would vastly increase the life-span of your shelter. Exactly what I did. Soil retains moisture, and no matter how well waterproofing is done, no matter how many layers or products used, eventually moisture can get through (in my experience). Drain tile would be a very cheap means of ensuring moisture isn't constantly retained in the soil and held right up against the wooden (plastic) exterior. Since it's on a hillside, and you can day-light the drain downhill you don't need anything like a sump pump to keep draw the water away... Gravity would do all the work for you. Spot on. Sorry I did not spell everything out with full construction details. I more-so wanted to detail the numbers of the forces at work, and the ratings of lumber for how to build such a structure. Things such as water and drainage will very greatly depending on location. For example: I would not even consider building such a structure in a high water table situation where you are not on a hill. (I would be thinking concrete, steel or plastic shelter: Something that is inherently resistant to water from the material it is constructed of.) Also, something I don't think I ever mentioned: The walls were built to 6ft high total interior height. 2x12 roof beams sit on top of that. I stand 5'8" in my boots, and my wife is a little shorter. I figured if we have guests that are tall and they need to go in there, they can stand with their head between the roof beams Building taller, and I would recommend using 2x8 or better for the wall studs. |
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How is your shelter holding up so far?
Any changes you would make looking back? Bump because I like this thread. |
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How is your shelter holding up so far? Any changes you would make looking back? Bump because I like this thread. Built a drain into the shelter for the de-humidifier, so I didn't have to drill a hole through the door for a garden hose Going good actually. Hindsight changes: make the hallway from 6 feet to 10 feet. The dirt is too steep without retaining wall. Also, making the hallway about 12 inches wider would have been nice. Other than that, I would not make any other changes as of yet. Of course, bigger, or concrete would be better. But, for what I spent on it and what it does, I am very happy with how it turned out!. I think about filling the bottom with concrete, but I don't like the idea of locking any moisture that could get down there from the de-humidifier. Biggest thing I hate now is that the de-humidifier keeps it at just under 90 degrees in there!!! At least its a 'dry' heat at 25% humidity. The de-humidifier is required to run at all times (at least during the summer months. See what happens this fall). Now that the wood is getting dried out, I may put a timer on it to have it on a 4 hour on, 4 hours off to save electricity. Will have to experiment. Planning on keeping it just above freezing this winter to store home canned garden veggies. Should need minimal electric heat to do that. Have it now stocked with the basics, a roll-away bed, cots, water, canned food, extra cell phone (911 phone only), phone chargers, etc, etc, etc. Easy to make shelving with exposed studs! I am hoping to get 5 good years out of it. If I get that, I would be happy. We are hoping to put a basement under the house in that time, and once we do, I will knock it in. Will keep everyone posted if something changes that need to be made to the design. Like I said, I didn't get into specifics on how to put it together, but I will say: INCREDIBLE LATERAL FORCES AT WORK HERE! Just remember to brace everything! |
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