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Posted: 3/19/2015 7:16:09 AM EDT
[#1]
Given ABC's awful track record (which is more than just the bottled water girl incident), I'm certainly not going to rule out the possibility that they over-egged the pudding on this one.
In the grander scheme, the guy got charged with DIP and "obstruction without force," which is pretty weak. It basically tells me that they found a 20-year-old college kid, in a college town bar area, who was drunk - big yawn - and then he didn't respect their authoritah (but didn't physically resist) so he got face-planted. |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 8:52:38 AM EDT
[#2]
I did see a side article to this last night in reference to the girl from a couple years ago. ABC admitted no fault but agreed to pay $212,000 to settle the law suit.
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Posted: 3/19/2015 11:10:41 AM EDT
[#3]
That agency needs to go.
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Posted: 3/19/2015 11:24:55 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Given ABC's awful track record (which is more than just the bottled water girl incident), I'm certainly not going to rule out the possibility that they over-egged the pudding on this one. In the grander scheme, the guy got charged with DIP and "obstruction without force," which is pretty weak. It basically tells me that they found a 20-year-old college kid, in a college town bar area, who was drunk - big yawn - and then he didn't respect their authoritah (but didn't physically resist) so he got face-planted. Obstruction without force, in my experience, is just misdemeanor obstruction, meaning pulling away and not letting the officer arrest you. Distinct from the felony version, which uses force, where you assault the officer to get away. I'm not saying it WASN'T excessive, but I've certainly seen many, many people get face planted when they yank away or refuse to submit to a valid arrest. ETA - taking a resisting suspect to the ground is the very first thing that a police officer is taught to do in defensive tactics. It's much easier to gain control over a suspect from the ground, than tussling around on foot. Much less likely to injure the suspect or the officer, and much less likely to continue on and escalate. |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 11:28:10 AM EDT
[#5]
Didn't ABC undergo some kind of new director/supervisor from the last Cville incident? Wasn't it some quack job from another ABC office that was promoted when record suggests there was grounds for reprimand or removal? Either way, they are damn stupid and appear to be targeting UVA students and then going retard over nonevents. Why are the very people that have the absolute control over distilled spirits so incapable of functioning in society? With all the drama against LEOs, it's unfortunate that this is very much a rogue LEA that needs an overhaul, if not be abolished...as they won't correct themselves or even acknowledge wrong doing.
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Posted: 3/19/2015 11:58:35 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That agency needs to go. True. The entire agency is a pointless anachronism, irrespective of the goonish behavior. |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 12:00:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obstruction without force, in my experience, is just misdemeanor obstruction, meaning pulling away and not letting the officer arrest you. Distinct from the felony version, which uses force, where you assault the officer to get away. I'm not saying it WASN'T excessive, but I've certainly seen many, many people get face planted when they yank away or refuse to submit to a valid arrest. ETA - taking a resisting suspect to the ground is the very first thing that a police officer is taught to do in defensive tactics. It's much easier to gain control over a suspect from the ground, than tussling around on foot. Much less likely to injure the suspect or the officer, and much less likely to continue on and escalate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Given ABC's awful track record (which is more than just the bottled water girl incident), I'm certainly not going to rule out the possibility that they over-egged the pudding on this one. In the grander scheme, the guy got charged with DIP and "obstruction without force," which is pretty weak. It basically tells me that they found a 20-year-old college kid, in a college town bar area, who was drunk - big yawn - and then he didn't respect their authoritah (but didn't physically resist) so he got face-planted. Obstruction without force, in my experience, is just misdemeanor obstruction, meaning pulling away and not letting the officer arrest you. Distinct from the felony version, which uses force, where you assault the officer to get away. I'm not saying it WASN'T excessive, but I've certainly seen many, many people get face planted when they yank away or refuse to submit to a valid arrest. ETA - taking a resisting suspect to the ground is the very first thing that a police officer is taught to do in defensive tactics. It's much easier to gain control over a suspect from the ground, than tussling around on foot. Much less likely to injure the suspect or the officer, and much less likely to continue on and escalate. I'm really just wondering why they were bothering the guy in the first place. Given that it was ABC special agents, it was probably some incredibly trivial reason. |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 12:24:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm really just wondering why they were bothering the guy in the first place. Given that it was ABC special agents, it was probably some incredibly trivial reason. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Given ABC's awful track record (which is more than just the bottled water girl incident), I'm certainly not going to rule out the possibility that they over-egged the pudding on this one. In the grander scheme, the guy got charged with DIP and "obstruction without force," which is pretty weak. It basically tells me that they found a 20-year-old college kid, in a college town bar area, who was drunk - big yawn - and then he didn't respect their authoritah (but didn't physically resist) so he got face-planted. Obstruction without force, in my experience, is just misdemeanor obstruction, meaning pulling away and not letting the officer arrest you. Distinct from the felony version, which uses force, where you assault the officer to get away. I'm not saying it WASN'T excessive, but I've certainly seen many, many people get face planted when they yank away or refuse to submit to a valid arrest. ETA - taking a resisting suspect to the ground is the very first thing that a police officer is taught to do in defensive tactics. It's much easier to gain control over a suspect from the ground, than tussling around on foot. Much less likely to injure the suspect or the officer, and much less likely to continue on and escalate. I'm really just wondering why they were bothering the guy in the first place. Given that it was ABC special agents, it was probably some incredibly trivial reason. Probably trolling the bar for underage drinking and fake IDs. |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 1:30:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
True. The entire agency is a pointless anachronism, irrespective of the goonish behavior. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That agency needs to go. True. The entire agency is a pointless anachronism, irrespective of the goonish behavior. agreed- local LEOs can handle underage drinking citations if necessary. At least this time they kept their guns in their holsters (unlike water girl). It is also pretty idiotic that at 20 years of age one can vote for our president, be in the armed forces and yet not be trusted with a beer. |
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Posted: 3/19/2015 2:03:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably trolling the bar for underage drinking and fake IDs. That's an entire school of fish in a barrel around The Corner in C-ville. You'd be hard-pressed to find a sober person there at that time, and half of them are underage. Somehow, the Earth keeps turning, even when the VA ABC Justice League isn't there. |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 1:16:38 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't ABC undergo some kind of new director/supervisor from the last Cville incident? Wasn't it some quack job from another ABC office that was promoted when record suggests there was grounds for reprimand or removal? Either way, they are damn stupid and appear to be targeting UVA students and then going retard over nonevents. Why are the very people that have the absolute control over distilled spirits so incapable of functioning in society? With all the drama against LEOs, it's unfortunate that this is very much a rogue LEA that needs an overhaul, if not be abolished...as they won't correct themselves or even acknowledge wrong doing. They got a new advisor to the board, appointed by hizzoner the governor, namely Fluvanna County's former sheriff, Ryant Washington: I'll bet he wishes he'd declined this job |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 11:29:38 AM EDT
[#12]
The rule in Virginia is, and has been for several centuries, that if a law-enforcement officer places you under arrest, then you peacefully comply. Resistance is not, and cannot be, tolerated. If you feel that the arrest is unjustified, then the place where you make your argument is in the courtroom.....not on the sidewalk outside of a bar.
Martese Johnson evidently failed to learn (or heed) that important rule. As a result, the ABC officers had to use force to effect the arrest. The kid ended up with 10 stitches, and a simple arrest for drunk in public ended up with nationwide headlines. In addition, our scumbag governor falls into the race trap. I'll bet that if the kid had been white, no one would have given a shit about it, and it would never have made even a mention in the local paper. As it stands now, I wouldn't be surprised if Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton show up in Charlottesville to lead a march calling for "Justice for Martese". |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 11:51:25 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The rule in Virginia is, and has been for several centuries, that if a law-enforcement officer places you under arrest, then you peacefully comply. Resistance is not, and cannot be, tolerated. If you feel that the arrest is unjustified, then the place where you make your argument is in the courtroom.....not on the sidewalk outside of a bar. That's only the law if the arrest is lawful. Virginia allows resistance of unlawful arrests, and has for centuries. Any reasonable force, including deadly force if appropriate, may be used. See, e.g., Foote v. Commonwealth, 11 Va. App. 61, 396 S.E.2d 851 (1990) http://va.findacase.com/research/wfrmDocViewer.aspx/xq/fac.19900918_0040099.VA.htm/qx |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 11:55:28 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The rule in Virginia is, and has been for several centuries, that if a law-enforcement officer places you under arrest, then you peacefully comply. Resistance is not, and cannot be, tolerated. If you feel that the arrest is unjustified, then the place where you make your argument is in the courtroom.....not on the sidewalk outside of a bar. Martese Johnson evidently failed to learn (or heed) that important rule. As a result, the ABC officers had to use force to effect the arrest. The kid ended up with 10 stitches, and a simple arrest for drunk in public ended up with nationwide headlines. In addition, our scumbag governor falls into the race trap. I'll bet that if the kid had been white, no one would have given a shit about it, and it would never have made even a mention in the local paper. As it stands now, I wouldn't be surprised if Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton show up in Charlottesville to lead a march calling for "Justice for Martese". I'm not disagreeing with your premises, but have we seen a video of the lead up and take down of this kid? All I've seen is the aftermath. Given our nutty times, the kid is automatically going to advance his case by playing the race card. I may not be impressed with his character, but it doesn't seem like there needed to be physical altercation. The ABC is well known for unprovoked aggression and even in their last national case of stupidity admit to no wrong doing. |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 11:55:49 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's only the law if the arrest is lawful. Virginia allows resistance of unlawful arrests, and has for centuries. See, e.g., Foote v. Commonwealth, 11 Va. App. 61, 396 S.E.2d 851 (1990) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The rule in Virginia is, and has been for several centuries, that if a law-enforcement officer places you under arrest, then you peacefully comply. Resistance is not, and cannot be, tolerated. If you feel that the arrest is unjustified, then the place where you make your argument is in the courtroom.....not on the sidewalk outside of a bar. That's only the law if the arrest is lawful. Virginia allows resistance of unlawful arrests, and has for centuries. See, e.g., Foote v. Commonwealth, 11 Va. App. 61, 396 S.E.2d 851 (1990) There is a thread in GD on this, Mr. J's lawyer is stating that he got collared after he presented an older but valid out of state ID to a bar employee, who then asked for his zip. Mr. J gave his current out of state zip, which did not match the ID zip (again a 4 year old ID) and the ABC agents "took an interest in him". ETA he has been charged with "obstruction of justice without force " and "public swearing or intoxication". Thank god this scary criminal was taken off our streets. 
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Posted: 3/20/2015 12:10:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a thread in GD on this, Mr. J's lawyer is stating that he got collared after he presented an older but valid out of state ID to a bar employee, who then asked for his zip. Mr. J gave his current out of state zip, which did not match the ID zip (again a 4 year old ID) and the ABC agents "took an interest in him". ETA he has been charged with "obstruction of justice without force " and "public swearing or intoxication". Thank god this scary criminal was taken off our streets.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The rule in Virginia is, and has been for several centuries, that if a law-enforcement officer places you under arrest, then you peacefully comply. Resistance is not, and cannot be, tolerated. If you feel that the arrest is unjustified, then the place where you make your argument is in the courtroom.....not on the sidewalk outside of a bar. That's only the law if the arrest is lawful. Virginia allows resistance of unlawful arrests, and has for centuries. See, e.g., Foote v. Commonwealth, 11 Va. App. 61, 396 S.E.2d 851 (1990) There is a thread in GD on this, Mr. J's lawyer is stating that he got collared after he presented an older but valid out of state ID to a bar employee, who then asked for his zip. Mr. J gave his current out of state zip, which did not match the ID zip (again a 4 year old ID) and the ABC agents "took an interest in him". ETA he has been charged with "obstruction of justice without force " and "public swearing or intoxication". Thank god this scary criminal was taken off our streets.
I'd have been a walking misdemeanor back in the Navy! |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 12:13:48 PM EDT
[#17]
The only ABC agent I know thinks he's in special forces or something. LOL. We need to abolish the ABC and go with free enterprise instead of having to go to state owned stores for spirits.
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Posted: 3/20/2015 12:20:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only ABC agent I know thinks he's in special forces or something. LOL. We need to abolish the ABC and go with free enterprise instead of having to go to state owned stores for spirits. What do state-owned liquor stores and "free enterprise" have to do with ABC cops arresting a drunk? |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 12:22:38 PM EDT
[#19]
Reference Foote Vs. Commonwealth:
Johnson was arrested for "public swearing and intoxication". Based on the video I saw, he certainly was swearing, and in the opinion of the police, he was intoxicated. I see no grounds there for a claim of "unlawful arrest". |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 1:08:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reference Foote Vs. Commonwealth: Johnson was arrested for "public swearing and intoxication". Based on the video I saw, he certainly was swearing, and in the opinion of the police, he was intoxicated. I see no grounds there for a claim of "unlawful arrest". Which has nothing to do with your blanket misstatement of the law. Also, the "swearing" part of that statute is basically unenforceable on 1st Amendment grounds. |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 1:09:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What do state-owned liquor stores and "free enterprise" have to do with ABC cops arresting a drunk? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The only ABC agent I know thinks he's in special forces or something. LOL. We need to abolish the ABC and go with free enterprise instead of having to go to state owned stores for spirits. What do state-owned liquor stores and "free enterprise" have to do with ABC cops arresting a drunk? If ABC didn't exist, neither would the clown posse of "special agents" that they employ. Let's get real here. There are hundreds of drunken underage UVA kids around The Corner every weekend, and somehow, the Charlottesville PD and UVA PD just doesn't seem to get themselves into these issues. They also don't attempt plain-clothes gunpoint arrests of people buying bottled water. |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 2:13:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Morgan Harrington, Hannah Graham , the frat rape and Rolling Stone, and now this. UVA needs a break.
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Posted: 3/20/2015 2:19:13 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What do state-owned liquor stores and "free enterprise" have to do with ABC cops arresting a drunk? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The only ABC agent I know thinks he's in special forces or something. LOL. We need to abolish the ABC and go with free enterprise instead of having to go to state owned stores for spirits. What do state-owned liquor stores and "free enterprise" have to do with ABC cops arresting a drunk? Same agency - two different functions. There is a very good argument to be made that both functions are obsolete. -shooter |
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Posted: 3/20/2015 2:51:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Morgan Harrington, Hannah Graham , the frat rape and Rolling Stone, and now this. UVA needs a break. Its UVA.....ban UVA. |
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Posted: 3/21/2015 4:57:15 PM EDT
[#25]
These are policing issues that happen every single weekend, in every single college town in Virginia.
This one is nothing special. Except he's black, so it MUST have been racist. 
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Posted: 3/21/2015 10:37:48 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These are policing issues that happen every single weekend, in every single college town in Virginia. This one is nothing special. Except he's black, so it MUST have been racist. I'm thinking it's yet another example of ABC's awful behavior. No fake ID and now repeated claims that he wasn't even intoxicated. Nothing racial about, just ABC being thugs as usual. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 4:25:54 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm thinking it's yet another example of ABC's awful behavior. No fake ID and now repeated claims that he wasn't even intoxicated. Nothing racial about, just ABC being thugs as usual. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
These are policing issues that happen every single weekend, in every single college town in Virginia. This one is nothing special. Except he's black, so it MUST have been racist. I'm thinking it's yet another example of ABC's awful behavior. No fake ID and now repeated claims that he wasn't even intoxicated. Nothing racial about, just ABC being thugs as usual. I think that's right - but "thuggish as usual" is no excuse. And that doesn't matter to the professional racebaiters, so maybe this time the hammer will come down on them. Right outcome,wrong reason. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 9:19:51 AM EDT
[#28]
There was a style weekly (local "alternative" paper in Richmond) article about 10 years ago about the changing face of the ABC. Cover article. Picture of an agent in full camo, face paint, ninja mask. They were known for quite literally hiding in the bushes and jumping out on kids. At one point, they were better equipped than the local cops, better cars, better radios, better computers, better surveillance gear- Including high end night vision. Priorities all out of whack.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 1:48:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think that's right - but "thuggish as usual" is no excuse. And that doesn't matter to the professional racebaiters, so maybe this time the hammer will come down on them. Right outcome,wrong reason. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm thinking it's yet another example of ABC's awful behavior. No fake ID and now repeated claims that he wasn't even intoxicated. Nothing racial about, just ABC being thugs as usual. I think that's right - but "thuggish as usual" is no excuse. And that doesn't matter to the professional racebaiters, so maybe this time the hammer will come down on them. Right outcome,wrong reason. Oddly enough, that's a perfectly good reason to uphold a court's decision on appeal. So, fine by me in this case. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 10:32:14 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The rule in Virginia is, and has been for several centuries, that if a law-enforcement officer places you under arrest, then you peacefully comply. Resistance is not, and cannot be, tolerated. If you feel that the arrest is unjustified, then the place where you make your argument is in the courtroom.....not on the sidewalk outside of a bar. Martese Johnson evidently failed to learn (or heed) that important rule. As a result, the ABC officers had to use force to effect the arrest. The kid ended up with 10 stitches, and a simple arrest for drunk in public ended up with nationwide headlines. In addition, our scumbag governor falls into the race trap. I'll bet that if the kid had been white, no one would have given a shit about it, and it would never have made even a mention in the local paper. As it stands now, I wouldn't be surprised if Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton show up in Charlottesville to lead a march calling for "Justice for Martese". Damn that's going to be complicated sign for me to hold up when they do :( |
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Posted: 3/23/2015 12:33:38 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I did see a side article to this last night in reference to the girl from a couple years ago. ABC admitted no fault but agreed to pay $212,000 to settle the law suit. |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 2:42:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That agency needs to go. But then who is going to bust the illegal moonshiners making illegal moonshine illegally? I mean the moonshine TV show wouldn't be as exciting. |
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Posted: 3/24/2015 3:40:15 PM EDT
[#33]
The ABC is an agency that has no need to exist. Oh, noes, what will we do if the moonshiners are allowed to operate their stills!?
Any actual "law enforcing" they do could be handled (and almost certainly performed better) by the VSP. Of course, I feel the same way about DMV or the Department of Charitable Gaming (although I believe DCG was rolled into VDACS). |
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Posted: 3/25/2015 1:18:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That agency needs to go. Yup, nothing the locals and VSP cant handle. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 3:25:15 PM EDT
[#35]
As bad as the ABC has been, did UVA call in special ABC operations in C-ville?
UVA President Sullivan “I asked the governor back in the fall to come and investigate the liquor establishments here because I was concerned they were serving underage students,” Sullivan said. “I did not intend, nor do I want the ABC to be enforcing liquor law against individual students.” This is the same idiot that recommended the UVA community eliminate all alcohol except beer during the whole Rolling Stone fiasco. Didn't the previous Governor have to get involved when the Board tried to fire her? President Sullivan |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 10:56:28 AM EDT
[#36]
Got to comment to Sen. Creigh Deeds personally on Thursday at a convention that ABC needs to be de-fanged and eventually dissolved...
He said he is working on that... Maybe this time it will happen? Rmpl |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 10:58:23 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As bad as the ABC has been, did UVA call in special ABC operations in C-ville? UVA President Sullivan “I asked the governor back in the fall to come and investigate the liquor establishments here because I was concerned they were serving underage students,” Sullivan said. “I did not intend, nor do I want the ABC to be enforcing liquor law against individual students.” This is the same idiot that recommended the UVA community eliminate all alcohol except beer during the whole Rolling Stone fiasco. Didn't the previous Governor have to get involved when the Board tried to fire her? President Sullivan Unintended Consequences of the clueless REACTIONARIES who can't think past next week... Rmpl |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 1:17:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ABC is an agency that has no need to exist. While we're at it, lets just get the state out of the whole liquor business totally. Lets have private liquor stores and let the free market see where it goes. VSP can enforce ABC issues as needed. |
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Posted: 3/28/2015 6:00:01 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While we're at it, lets just get the state out of the whole liquor business totally. Lets have private liquor stores and let the free market see where it goes. VSP can enforce ABC issues as needed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The ABC is an agency that has no need to exist. While we're at it, lets just get the state out of the whole liquor business totally. Lets have private liquor stores and let the free market see where it goes. VSP can enforce ABC issues as needed. That would be included in the "get rid of ABC entirely" concept. It really is a pointless anachronism. There was an effort to privatize the stores a few years ago, I'm sure somebody's lobbyists scuttled it. |
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Posted: 3/29/2015 3:58:43 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would be included in the "get rid of ABC entirely" concept. It really is a pointless anachronism. There was an effort to privatize the stores a few years ago, I'm sure somebody's lobbyists scuttled it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The ABC is an agency that has no need to exist. While we're at it, lets just get the state out of the whole liquor business totally. Lets have private liquor stores and let the free market see where it goes. VSP can enforce ABC issues as needed. That would be included in the "get rid of ABC entirely" concept. It really is a pointless anachronism. There was an effort to privatize the stores a few years ago, I'm sure somebody's lobbyists scuttled it. McDonnell wanted to sell the ABC stores off... the legislature had a fit over how much recurring revenue they'd lose. Obviously they wouldn't get 100% of the profits out of a licensing fee. I still think it was a good idea. |
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Posted: 3/29/2015 7:56:40 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As bad as the ABC has been, did UVA call in special ABC operations in C-ville? UVA President Sullivan “I asked the governor back in the fall to come and investigate the liquor establishments here because I was concerned they were serving underage students,” Sullivan said. “I did not intend, nor do I want the ABC to be enforcing liquor law against individual students.” This is the same idiot that recommended the UVA community eliminate all alcohol except beer during the whole Rolling Stone fiasco. Didn't the previous Governor have to get involved when the Board tried to fire her? President Sullivan "Don't invite the man into your life" includes govt to govt inclusion |
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Posted: 3/31/2015 5:58:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Has anyone seen any video from a store or the street that shows events that lead up to the stitches?
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Posted: 4/1/2015 8:03:14 AM EDT
[#43]
Has anybody seen video of the ABC agents beating this guy as claimed and repeated by several news media sources? Any links?
I have seen some video but none show ABC hitting the guy. My opinion, looks like ABC face planted the guy into the brick looking sidewalk resulting in his forehead being split open. If so, very different then "bloody beating". I am not debating if justified or if ABC should even be, simply asking if this guy was really beaten as being reportedly claimed by media. |
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Posted: 4/1/2015 12:29:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anybody seen video of the ABC agents beating this guy as claimed and repeated by several news media sources? Any links? I have seen some video but none show ABC hitting the guy. My opinion, looks like ABC face planted the guy into the brick looking sidewalk resulting in his forehead being split open. If so, very different then "bloody beating". I am not debating if justified or if ABC should even be, simply asking if this guy was really beaten as being reportedly claimed by media. "Hitting" somebody (i.e., with your hands directly) versus planting his face into the pavement strikes me as a purely semantic distinction. They used force and it resulted in injury. |
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Posted: 4/1/2015 1:54:27 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Hitting" somebody (i.e., with your hands directly) versus planting his face into the pavement strikes me as a purely semantic distinction. They used force and it resulted in injury. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Has anybody seen video of the ABC agents beating this guy as claimed and repeated by several news media sources? Any links? I have seen some video but none show ABC hitting the guy. My opinion, looks like ABC face planted the guy into the brick looking sidewalk resulting in his forehead being split open. If so, very different then "bloody beating". I am not debating if justified or if ABC should even be, simply asking if this guy was really beaten as being reportedly claimed by media. "Hitting" somebody (i.e., with your hands directly) versus planting his face into the pavement strikes me as a purely semantic distinction. They used force and it resulted in injury. Either of which can be perfectly lawful, given the circumstances. What we don't have here, is all the facts. |
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Posted: 4/1/2015 4:18:52 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Either of which can be perfectly lawful, given the circumstances. What we don't have here, is all the facts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Has anybody seen video of the ABC agents beating this guy as claimed and repeated by several news media sources? Any links? I have seen some video but none show ABC hitting the guy. My opinion, looks like ABC face planted the guy into the brick looking sidewalk resulting in his forehead being split open. If so, very different then "bloody beating". I am not debating if justified or if ABC should even be, simply asking if this guy was really beaten as being reportedly claimed by media. "Hitting" somebody (i.e., with your hands directly) versus planting his face into the pavement strikes me as a purely semantic distinction. They used force and it resulted in injury. Either of which can be perfectly lawful, given the circumstances. What we don't have here, is all the facts. That's what I would like to know. On one hand is a youngster that appears full of piss and vinegar in the video and on the other hand is the ABC muscle. |
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Posted: 4/1/2015 6:58:06 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Has anybody seen video of the ABC agents beating this guy as claimed and repeated by several news media sources? Any links? I have seen some video but none show ABC hitting the guy. My opinion, looks like ABC face planted the guy into the brick looking sidewalk resulting in his forehead being split open. If so, very different then "bloody beating". I am not debating if justified or if ABC should even be, simply asking if this guy was really beaten as being reportedly claimed by media. After Ferguson, actually since well before it, I don't trust the media to accurate report LE uses of force. They go for the loudest and goriest story, facts be damned. |
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Posted: 4/2/2015 12:18:24 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Hitting" somebody (i.e., with your hands directly) versus planting his face into the pavement strikes me as a purely semantic distinction. They used force and it resulted in injury. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Has anybody seen video of the ABC agents beating this guy as claimed and repeated by several news media sources? Any links? I have seen some video but none show ABC hitting the guy. My opinion, looks like ABC face planted the guy into the brick looking sidewalk resulting in his forehead being split open. If so, very different then "bloody beating". I am not debating if justified or if ABC should even be, simply asking if this guy was really beaten as being reportedly claimed by media. "Hitting" somebody (i.e., with your hands directly) versus planting his face into the pavement strikes me as a purely semantic distinction. They used force and it resulted in injury. "Semantics" matter. There is a huge difference between cops beating the shit out of some one...as the news media is implying happened....and knocking/tackling/throwing somebody on the ground resulting in them hitting their head. Nobody ever said force was not used. My question was did they beat the shit out of the guy as the media is claiming or was it a matter of him hitting his head. AND has anybody seen any video showing ABC was beating the guy. In my experience, the location and type of injury to the guy's forehead looks more of the type caused by smacking a forehead against the ground. His lawyer also would have been showing more photos of all the bruises on the rest of his body if ABC had been beating him. |
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Posted: 4/2/2015 8:19:53 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Semantics" matter. There is a huge difference between cops beating the shit out of some one...as the news media is implying happened....and knocking/tackling/throwing somebody on the ground resulting in them hitting their head. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Has anybody seen video of the ABC agents beating this guy as claimed and repeated by several news media sources? Any links? I have seen some video but none show ABC hitting the guy. My opinion, looks like ABC face planted the guy into the brick looking sidewalk resulting in his forehead being split open. If so, very different then "bloody beating". I am not debating if justified or if ABC should even be, simply asking if this guy was really beaten as being reportedly claimed by media. "Hitting" somebody (i.e., with your hands directly) versus planting his face into the pavement strikes me as a purely semantic distinction. They used force and it resulted in injury. "Semantics" matter. There is a huge difference between cops beating the shit out of some one...as the news media is implying happened....and knocking/tackling/throwing somebody on the ground resulting in them hitting their head. Links to stories (from legitimate news sources) where they say this? I Googled "martese johnson beaten" and only got a handful of hits from liberal activist sources that used "beaten" or any derivative. Everyone else is using terms like "flung to the ground" or "excessive force" or "bloodied." And again, no, there isn't a difference - legally or physically. If I smash your head into a hard, immovable object, how is that "hugely different" from hitting you with my hands? It's probably worse, actually. |
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Posted: 4/2/2015 8:30:02 AM EDT
[#50]
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Either of which can be perfectly lawful, given the circumstances. What we don't have here, is all the facts. I'll wait for the VSP before forming a final opinion, but from official statements about why he was approached in the first place, the fact that no fake ID was involved, the bar owner's statements that he wasn't intoxicated or misbehaving in any way, and the track record of ABC ... I'd put money on this being a completely unjustifed UOF. The level of force is less of an issue than the problem of why he was stopped in the first place. I want to know what objective and uncontrived facts supported their seizure of him in the first place. If they can't get past that, then the whole arrest is bogus and thus ANY level of force was unjustified, and any resistance on his part was perfectly lawful. |
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