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rfb45colt
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Posted: 7/9/2012 3:46:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/9/2012 3:52:27 PM EST by rfb45colt]
http://www.wjfw.com/stories.html?sku=20120709185120

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Wolves Kill Two Forest County Hunting Dogs Submitted: 07/09/2012


CRANDON - The Wisconsin DNR's proposed wolf hunt plans to harvest more than 200 wolves this year.

It can't come soon enough for a Crandon family whose hunting dogs were killed and eaten by wolves last week.

Tim Thiel regularly hunts bears with his Plott Hounds.

Last Friday, he had ten dogs. But that's before Cassie and Gonzo were killed by a pack of wolves.

Thiel was hunting in the woods and didn't hear his dogs bark for about 30 minutes.

When he tracked them by their GPS collars, he couldn't believe what he found.

"There wasn't much," Thiel said. "There was a head and feet left, that's about all, and spine. It was all connected, but they were ate. They didn't just kill the dogs, they ate the dogs."

The Thiel family does have pictures of the dogs' bodies, but they are too graphic to share.

The DNR says it's common to see wolves kill and injure about 30 pets and livestock in the state each year.

"This time of year, typically when a dog is killed, it's probably because of an encounter with a wolf pack that has a rendezvous site which is where pups are being tended by other members of the pack," DNR Wildlife Biologist Jeremy Holtz said.

The DNR has set up a caution area in western Forest and eastern Oneida counties because of last week's attack.

It roughly traces the boundaries of what is called the Atkins Lake Wolf Pack.

Hunters and dogs are strongly advised to stay out of the area.

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link to DNR map of "warning" area. http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/wildlifehabitat/wolf/documents/2012_AtkinsLake.pdf

We used to deer hunt in the NW quadrant of this warning area, but we quit 5 years ago... there just weren't any deer there like there used to be in 1980s-1990s. Now I know why. Actually we knew all along, as we've seen this pack numerous times. Still lots of grouse, and we still hunt grouse there on occasion... but we don't bring our dogs.



"There's only 3 things I expect from my shotgun... BANG, BANG, BANG."

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Flamethrower
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Posted: 7/9/2012 4:15:29 PM EST
Fuck wolves.
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dIIshoots
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Posted: 7/9/2012 5:43:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:
Fuck wolves.


Well said...thank you.

As a retired houndsman I still for the life of me can't figure out why we need these things... There used to be a bounty on the lowly wolf...now they are protected???

WTF...which liberal politician is behind this scheme?

No love lost here for them effen things.

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JimEb
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Posted: 7/10/2012 3:43:43 AM EST
Bear hunting in July?
rfb45colt
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Posted: 7/10/2012 3:59:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By JimEb:
Bear hunting in July?


Training their bear hunting dogs, by actually chasing bears in the woods. It's prohibited prior to July 1st. Actual "hunting" begins in September. Look at this as their "training camp", with live pre-season action, that doesn't count because there's no shooting allowed until September, and only then if you've gotten a tag after a 10 year wait.

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BulletcatchR
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Posted: 7/10/2012 7:06:02 AM EST
Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you... poor dogs, it's not their fault, or the wolves fault that they died. I'd like to see the bear hunters get , out of their trucks, off their fat asses and chase the bears themselves.

C361
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Posted: 7/10/2012 7:34:36 AM EST
I am a huge dog lover don't get me wrong, and a hunter, but these dogs are used to pack hunt bears. Same way the wolves hunt. More ironic than anything.

This planet isn't here for humans to destroy and use as a breeding ground as we see fit. If anything there should probably be more wolves (why they are protected).

If someone is killed by a shark, we don't kill off every shark.

More humans are killed by humans a day, and not to eat to survive, but because of a thrill or f'd up mentality, but we don't even kill them anymore, so why should wolves be killed?

Granted wolves do kill many things other than pack dogs, but if anything you should Respect the wild, not destroy it. Most livestock that gets killed is oddly enough bred for us to eat, yet if a wolf eats it, it is the end of the world.

I am sure my opinion would change if something happened to me personally, but that is with everything.
dIIshoots
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Posted: 7/10/2012 7:45:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By BulletcatchR:
Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you... poor dogs, it's not their fault, or the wolves fault that they died. I'd like to see the bear hunters get , out of their trucks, off their fat asses and chase the bears themselves.

C361
Stan


Ever tried hound hunting? Have any idea what it costs to raise and train a good pack of Plotts?

"I have found no cure for the black rifle disease...only prescriptions"
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Posted: 7/10/2012 8:43:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By shotgunfatcat:
I am a huge dog lover don't get me wrong, and a hunter, but these dogs are used to pack hunt bears. Same way the wolves hunt. More ironic than anything.

This planet isn't here for humans to destroy and use as a breeding ground as we see fit. If anything there should probably be more wolves (why they are protected).

If someone is killed by a shark, we don't kill off every shark.

More humans are killed by humans a day, and not to eat to survive, but because of a thrill or f'd up mentality, but we don't even kill them anymore, so why should wolves be killed?

Granted wolves do kill many things other than pack dogs, but if anything you should Respect the wild, not destroy it. Most livestock that gets killed is oddly enough bred for us to eat, yet if a wolf eats it, it is the end of the world.

I am sure my opinion would change if something happened to me personally, but that is with everything.


Sorry, humans are at the top of the food chain. While we have the obligation to be caretakers of domain, we also can choose to maintain it as we as a society see fit.
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Posted: 7/10/2012 9:38:33 AM EST
We have family up in Wabeno, WI that run bear dogs every year. The Wolf encounters between dogs and wolves are getting more and more frequent. There are usually only two ways to hunt bear during the season and that's with dogs or sitting over bait. I feel hunting over bait to be lazy so Its funny you say get our fat asses out of the truck and chase the bear. Have you every been on a chase and have to trek in once a bear has been treed? Have you ever had to carry a 300lb bear out of the woods to the nearest drive-able road? Better eat your wheates buddy because its a workout.

Im all for the preservation of wildlife and Im glad they have introduced a hunting season for Wolves. Its going to keep the population in check, its going to keep the interaction between humans and livestock down and its going to generate revenue for the state.
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Posted: 7/10/2012 9:44:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:


Sorry, humans are at the top of the food chain. While we have the obligation to be caretakers of domain, we also can choose to maintain it as we as a society see fit.




There is no reason we as a race should completely destroy another race. I think we fought a war against this once or twice in the past, animals or not.

Look, I am all for hunting, limiting their zones, etc, I don't like the fact that someones dogs died because of it, it actually pisses me off. But not at the wolves, they are just trying to survive, and as a creature of greater intelligence, we should understand this.

in the last 100 years or so 3 people have died from a wolf attack in North America, all from rabies. 20-30 or so people have been "attacked" in the same time without death.

16-18 people a year die from pet dogs.

So yeah, lets kill all the wolves because they are such a threat to our race and we are the idiots that let our dogs run wild in the woods and not expect something like this to happen.



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Posted: 7/10/2012 10:29:16 AM EST
An old Russian proverb states "If you are afriad of the wolf, stay out of the forest".

I know that I will yet again be called a tree-hugging hippie for this, but don't blame wild animals for doing what comes natural. Don't want your dogs to get killed by wolves? Either keep them out of the woods (believe it or not, there are other ways to hunt bear), try to keep a closer eye on them or accept the fact that there are things out there that may kill them. I'm not one of those tree-hugging hippies that think that no wolves should ever be killed for any reason, but anybody who calls for the eradication of an entire species is a moron.
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Posted: 7/10/2012 11:38:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By dIIshoots:
Originally Posted By BulletcatchR:
Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you... poor dogs, it's not their fault, or the wolves fault that they died. I'd like to see the bear hunters get , out of their trucks, off their fat asses and chase the bears themselves.

C361
Stan


Ever tried hound hunting? Have any idea what it costs to raise and train a good pack of Plotts?



I used to own two mules, hunters/jumpers, never owned a hound but ran with some. I I'll amend my statement to "I'd like to see the bear hunters get out of their trucks and off their mules..."

I had land North of Tomahawk and remember when the first wolf tracks were starting to get seen. I doubt the sentiment towards the species has changed much.

IMO, it is a humans responsibility to take care of and preserve the life of their pets, when a human lets a dog off leash, THEY are responsible for the fate of their pet.

C361
Stan
rfb45colt
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Posted: 7/10/2012 1:31:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2012 1:54:29 PM EST by rfb45colt]
Originally Posted By shotgunfatcat:
Originally Posted By Flamethrower:


Sorry, humans are at the top of the food chain. While we have the obligation to be caretakers of domain, we also can choose to maintain it as we as a society see fit.




... and we are the idiots that let our dogs run wild in the woods and not expect something like this to happen.






You're overlooking one important fact here.... this attack occurred in "woods" owned by the dogs' owners. Sorry, but if I want to allow my dogs to run wild in my woods, that's my right and privelege to do so!!! If that makes me an idiot to think my animals should be safe on my property, then so be it. If the DNR, or the treehuggers, or big-city wolf idolizers, or whomever, want to "bring back" the wolf on public land, that's their perogitive. And when traveling on that public land, dog owners, hunters, and others should be aware there's wolves about, and live with the consequences. If you cannot keep them off of private land, then don't be a bit surprised by "shoot, shovel, and shut up" reactions from those who own the land. The DNR ponies up some big bucks to compensate those whose animals are killed by wolves. To me, that wouldn't be anywhere near enough compensation if I had a pet, or hunting dog, killed and eaten on my own property. Don't want the wolves killed? Then keep the fuckers off my land.

I don't hate wolves, but when those wolves "trespass" onto private property, they should be treated as any other harmful intruder. If they harm any animals there, too bad for the wolves, it's trigger time if they cannot co-exist with those who own the land, and the animals they own that live, play, or hunt on that private land. The harmful intruders should be totally eradicated from that private land ASAP, by any means necessary - unless the landowner actually wants them there. Trust me... very few landowners want wolves roaming their property. What lives on public land, is up to the public that owns it. What lives on private land is up to the people that own it.
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rfb45colt
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Posted: 7/10/2012 1:47:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2012 1:56:21 PM EST by rfb45colt]
Originally Posted By BulletcatchR:
Originally Posted By dIIshoots:
Originally Posted By BulletcatchR:
Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you... poor dogs, it's not their fault, or the wolves fault that they died. I'd like to see the bear hunters get , out of their trucks, off their fat asses and chase the bears themselves.

C361
Stan


Ever tried hound hunting? Have any idea what it costs to raise and train a good pack of Plotts?



I used to own two mules, hunters/jumpers, never owned a hound but ran with some. I I'll amend my statement to "I'd like to see the bear hunters get out of their trucks and off their mules..."

I had land North of Tomahawk and remember when the first wolf tracks were starting to get seen. I doubt the sentiment towards the species has changed much.

IMO, it is a humans responsibility to take care of and preserve the life of their pets, when a human lets a dog off leash, THEY are responsible for the fate of their pet.C361
Stan


Exactly why any wolf I see on my property is an instant target. I'm protecting the fate of my pet, on or off a leash (my land - my choice), by eliminating any threats that may be on my land, ASAP. I'd be shirking my resonsibility to my pet to allow an animal that could kill & eat it to roam freely on my property.

"There's only 3 things I expect from my shotgun... BANG, BANG, BANG."

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Posted: 7/10/2012 2:41:37 PM EST
I hunt in northern Manysodas and the wolves have existed there naturally for many years and I'm really not all together against that. But to prop up the numbers of wolves thru some kind of legal edict by politicians and lobbyists, not so much. Any wolf on my property will get the same treatment as mentioned by rfb45colt.

We have to have better management ideas with animals like wolves or bears that can and will kill humans. We don't need excessive numbers of these critters...............
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Posted: 7/10/2012 2:59:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2012 4:10:05 PM EST by shotgunfatcat]
It says "In the woods" not on his land. And as I said, control is fine. It even says in the article you posted that hunters and their dogs should stay out of the area.....
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Posted: 7/10/2012 3:06:35 PM EST

Have any idea what it costs to raise and train a good pack of Plotts?


Doubt I ever will. Keeping an animal chained/fenced up for 90% of it's life to have the remaining 10% spent chasing an animal into a tree just isn't my cup of tea.
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Posted: 7/10/2012 3:47:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By rfb45colt:
You're overlooking one important fact here.... this attack occurred in "woods" owned by the dogs' owners.


That important fact wasn't even mentioned in the article you posted, so I don't know exactly how that can be "overlooked". Private property is a completely different issue and I pretty much agree that if you see a wolf chasing down Fido in your backyard (or the back 40) you should be able to stop it by any means available.
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The other problem I have is the DNR posts a map with the wolf pack area we as taxpayers should avoid...in the national forest? Really? The reintroduction of the wolf creates many problems that IMHO we just don't need. I can respect a persons opinion and decision to hunt or not hunt with hounds as I'm sure they respect my decision to not sit over a bait and wait...but to be told to avoid an area to protect my hounds because the wolf is protecting it's own just doesn't sit well with me. And yes it's true the handler who releases his dog IS ultimatley responsible for that animals fate. The DNR compensates for lost/eaten hounds and that helps and there may be a season to hunt the wolf but in all honesty if they were hunted to near extinction like they were around 50 years ago I sure wouldn't lose any sleep.
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rfb45colt
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Posted: 7/10/2012 5:13:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2012 5:26:47 PM EST by rfb45colt]
Originally Posted By Dersu:
Originally Posted By rfb45colt:
You're overlooking one important fact here.... this attack occurred in "woods" owned by the dogs' owners.


That important fact wasn't even mentioned in the article you posted, so I don't know exactly how that can be "overlooked". Private property is a completely different issue and I pretty much agree that if you see a wolf chasing down Fido in your backyard (or the back 40) you should be able to stop it by any means available.


There's two links. It wasn't in the TV article link. The second link is to the DNR's report on the attack and map of where it happened. Why is "the woods" automatically assumed NOT to be private land? While there is an abundance of publicly owned "woods" up north, the majority of "the woods" is still privately owned. To run bear dogs on it, either you own it or have permission from the owners.

Atkins Lake Pack, Forest County

On July 6, Wildlife Services confirmed that wolves from the Atkins Lake pack killed two Plott hounds on private property in the Town of Crandon. Both dogs were 5 years of age - one male and one female. This pack consisted of seven wolves last winter. Hunters and dog trainers should be aware of the potential conflict and should exercise caution within the area outlined on the map below. The caution area includes Highway 45 to the west, Highway 8 south, County S and Highway 32 on the east, and Yellow Birch Road and Old Railroad Grade on the north.


The map at my link has "public" land shaded in green or yellow, and the attack site is pinpointed on non-shaded (private) land.

Ooops... the 2nd link in my original post is just the map, without the report. Don't know how that happened. Try this one.

http://dnr.wi.gov/topic/WildlifeHabitat/wolf/dogdeps.html#atkins

News story on local radio said that the "private land" was owned by the dog owner's family. They don't have their news stories in print at their web site.

This is a local issue for me... I hunt grouse (on privately owned land) in the warning area, so
I know that where this occured was not public property. Even before concealed carry became legal in WI, I always carried a large bore handgun in a belt holster when hunting in "the woods"... private or public. A 2 shot over/under 20ga with birdshot isn't as good as a 6 shot .44mag in these situations. Any wolf, bear, or coyote that breaks the 25 yd perimeter around myself, or my bird dogs, I shoot it... like Right Fucking Now. I'm not waiting for it to draw blood. One thing I've learned living in "the woods" full time for the last 22 years... if it doesn't flee upon first sight of us, it's not going to. They either run or attack... there's no in-between.
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Posted: 7/10/2012 5:22:33 PM EST
The best way I ever heard any of these debates put was this:

Everyone loves Elephants but none of those people have one crapping in their front yard.


Any predator that is not hunted usually presents a problem once it lives in proximity to humans. Just look at Cougars in California. Part of maintaining balance is making sure the predator respects what Humans can and will do to it. The Wolf will never respect another smaller canine of any kind, their instinct is to kill it, be it coyote or any other. I would not let my dog run loose in Wolf country and I would not let a Wolf run loose in my front yard. In the long run a pack of wolves is more desirable than a pack of Latin Kings, Crips, Bloods or MS13.
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Posted: 7/10/2012 5:45:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2012 6:18:56 PM EST by rfb45colt]
Originally Posted By shotgunfatcat:
It says "In the woods" not on his land. And as I said, control is fine. It even says in the article you posted that hunters and their dogs should stay out of the area.....


Um, excuse me but... look at the map at my links again. Public land is shaded... DNR = dark green, national forest = light green, county forest = yellow. All the rest is private land. Some of it is paper company (open to the public, for hunting or other outdoor recreation) some is privately owned (mostly hunting camps). There's even full time residents. Pine Lake (summer cottages line the shores) and the town of Hiles is in the N.E. corner of the warned area. There's even a few farms near Hiles.

My hunting partner's uncle owns 120 acres of hunting land in this warned area. He bought it about 12 years ago, $1K per acre, solely for privacy while hunting. It's 75% "swamp" and not good for much else. So now the DNR says "hunters and their dogs should stay out of the area"... because there's wolves in the area? Even when the majority of this area is private land? Really? Stay off your own land? Are the people at Pine Lake and in the town of Hiles , and other residents, supposed to evacuate? Who will compensate my friend's uncle (and all the others) for the loss of the intended use of their land? Does he still have to pay the taxes on it, if the DNR warns him (us) not to use it for the intent for which he bought it? Sorry, but FUCK that shit. We WILL hunt that land this fall, and we will "deal" with any consequences. If the DNR doesn't like it, they can come and remove "their" wolves... or we will.

Wolves belong in expansive wilderness areas. There are no real expansive wilderness areas left in WI. You cannot create the "illusion" of wildness just by introducing and protecting wild animals... that cannot co-exist alongside humans. People are here to stay. But the tree-huggers who don't have to deal with, on a daily basis, the animals they worship, will still try. They falsely believe they can restore what civilization (by it's very nature) has destroyed, by a symbolic animal of the wild roaming free once again. Sadly, the ones who will suffer the most in the end, are the wolves themselves. They don't belong here. Not any more.

"There's only 3 things I expect from my shotgun... BANG, BANG, BANG."

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Posted: 7/10/2012 6:36:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By rfb45colt:
One thing I've learned living in "the woods" full time for the last 22 years... if it doesn't flee upon first sight of us, it's not going to. They either run or attack... there's no in-between.]


That's funny - although I've never really gotten close to a wolf (30 yards or so) I've had bears either amble off or just stand there and look at me until I eventually walked away. I've had plenty of coyotes follow me at a certain distance because they're curious. Never been attacked - even though I'm sure both the bears and yotes knew I was unarmed. Maybe I'm hanging out in the wrong woods. Or maybe I'm, like, givin' off the wrong vibes dude.

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Posted: 7/10/2012 9:54:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By shotgunfatcat:
I am a huge dog lover don't get me wrong, and a hunter, but these dogs are used to pack hunt bears. Same way the wolves hunt. More ironic than anything.

This planet isn't here for humans to destroy and use as a breeding ground as we see fit. If anything there should probably be more wolves (why they are protected).

If someone is killed by a shark, we don't kill off every shark.

More humans are killed by humans a day, and not to eat to survive, but because of a thrill or f'd up mentality, but we don't even kill them anymore, so why should wolves be killed?

Granted wolves do kill many things other than pack dogs, but if anything you should Respect the wild, not destroy it. Most livestock that gets killed is oddly enough bred for us to eat, yet if a wolf eats it, it is the end of the world.

I am sure my opinion would change if something happened to me personally, but that is with everything.


I don't think anyone suggested killing off all the wolves. I know I didn't in the post you quoted and responded to.
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Posted: 7/11/2012 2:38:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By rfb45colt:
Originally Posted By shotgunfatcat:
It says "In the woods" not on his land. And as I said, control is fine. It even says in the article you posted that hunters and their dogs should stay out of the area.....


Um, excuse me but... look at the map at my links again. Public land is shaded... DNR = dark green, national forest = light green, county forest = yellow. All the rest is private land. Some of it is paper company (open to the public, for hunting or other outdoor recreation) some is privately owned (mostly hunting camps). There's even full time residents. Pine Lake (summer cottages line the shores) and the town of Hiles is in the N.E. corner of the warned area. There's even a few farms near Hiles.

My hunting partner's uncle owns 120 acres of hunting land in this warned area. He bought it about 12 years ago, $1K per acre, solely for privacy while hunting. It's 75% "swamp" and not good for much else. So now the DNR says "hunters and their dogs should stay out of the area"... because there's wolves in the area? Even when the majority of this area is private land? Really? Stay off your own land? Are the people at Pine Lake and in the town of Hiles , and other residents, supposed to evacuate? Who will compensate my friend's uncle (and all the others) for the loss of the intended use of their land? Does he still have to pay the taxes on it, if the DNR warns him (us) not to use it for the intent for which he bought it? Sorry, but FUCK that shit. We WILL hunt that land this fall, and we will "deal" with any consequences. If the DNR doesn't like it, they can come and remove "their" wolves... or we will.

Wolves belong in expansive wilderness areas. There are no real expansive wilderness areas left in WI. You cannot create the "illusion" of wildness just by introducing and protecting wild animals... that cannot co-exist alongside humans. People are here to stay. But the tree-huggers who don't have to deal with, on a daily basis, the animals they worship, will still try. They falsely believe they can restore what civilization (by it's very nature) has destroyed, by a symbolic animal of the wild roaming free once again. Sadly, the ones who will suffer the most in the end, are the wolves themselves. They don't belong here. Not any more.



Wilderness has nothing to do with respecting the wolf population. It's about ecological balance and the scales have been off kilt for a long time, against the wolf. The fact is that wolves are healthy for the ecology.
and,,, a Person doesn't own land, that is an illusion. The State can pretty much dictate what they want when they want.
Whether the property was private or not is moot, a smokescreen. If a person wants to let their dog's loose in the "yard", 200 sq feet or 200 acres, they should fence it in or personally supervise their pets. Easy peasy.

C361
Stan
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