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Posted: 6/25/2015 5:46:22 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I know this is addressed in other posts but I confirmed with my dealer today that not only is BATFE holding up Washington Form 1 submissions they are also taking advantage of the confusion and holding Form 4 and Form 3 submissions as well. I have two suppressors on form 4 and two SBRs on form 4 that are 4 months in and would be approved by now but BATFE (who seems to always be looking for a reason to "deny") are held up because of some "issue" regarding Form 1 submissions from Washington State. My dealer is in Western Washington and is a high volume Class 3 dealer in a position to know. They said they are not receiving any stamps from BATFE the last two weeks when in normal course they would receive several dozen. This qualifies as a rant because I am not in a position to fix this issue. All I can say is that...over the last many years....I have lost all faith in our federal govt. The state level issue with SBR/form 1 apps is seemingly being leveraged to shut down the entire app process, & with the fed reps we have, I wouldn't expect much help to get the wheels turning again. Be patient. I have a couple items in limbo, along with some planned SBR conversions now on hold because of this. Everyone is getting the same grief. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 11:28:09 AM EDT
[#2]
FBHO and FBATFE. There's no "confusion" in this situation, just tyranny.
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Posted: 6/25/2015 12:20:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Agreed. My only hope is that they (ATF) are straightening out their chain-of-command with WA State to figure out who can/can't tell ATF what is good-to-go. When I called ATF to ask about when the first day to submit a Form 1 was, they at first said SBRs were illegal. I informed the man on the phone that we passed a law legalizing them. He said ATF takes direction from the State AG on what is or is not allowed. He then called me back and said he found in another database that SBRs were allowed.
So why a DOL employee flapping their gums could cause all this clusterfuck is beyond me. As far as I know, the WA AG hasn't made an official stance on anything NFA. Suppressors and SBRs are allowed. Form 1 or 4. Sucks that I have 4 cans pending  
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Posted: 6/26/2015 12:06:05 AM EDT
[#4]
what pisses me off is that some guy who sweeps the floor at DOL can randomly call 'someone' at the ATF and get all our rights taken away......but to undo that completely unofficial bullshit, you need a formal opinion by the AG, an act of the state legislature with a super majority, a governor's signature...in blood...and all of this has to be sent to the Department of Justice via certified mail. I mean, WTF can't someone LEGIT from DOL just call ATF and say "yeah, ignore EVERYTHING that guy said and go back to what you were doing"???????
I didn't know any of the Founder's personally, but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that they didn't design a system where taking away rights was the easiest thing in the world...and reinstating rights wrongly infringed is fucking impossible.
Yes, I appreciate that a brave few in WA are "working" on this...what I don't get is why that "work" doesn't involve 2 phone calls and 15 mins. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 12:14:57 AM EDT
[#5]
Just out of curiosity, does the DOL have anything to do with NFA stuff?
ETA I guess I should really be asking if they should have anything to do with NFA stuff since they already fucked it up. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 1:00:58 AM EDT
[#6]
The ATF stated a week ago that nothing with any other NFA item legal in WA (suppressors or AOWs) were being affected. Form 1s, 3,s and 4s were not being suspended or denied. It was only for SBRs. And as of this week another dealer said that they are approving Form 3 and 4 for SBRs, just not Form 1s.
The NFA branch is the least of our problems. They just want their money. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 10:35:02 AM EDT
[#7]
Well I know this for one thing.......the bullshit is piled high concerning this issue.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 10:44:40 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just out of curiosity, does the DOL have anything to do with NFA stuff? ETA I guess I should really be asking if they should have anything to do with NFA stuff since they already fucked it up. don't believe so. Regarding 594, DOL came out and said "We just keep the records" or some bullshit... As far as approval, application or what is legal or not- I believe it is the State AG and ATF who are only ones involved. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 1:12:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ATF stated a week ago that nothing with any other NFA item legal in WA (suppressors or AOWs) were being affected. Form 1s, 3,s and 4s were not being suspended or denied. It was only for SBRs. And as of this week another dealer said that they are approving Form 3 and 4 for SBRs, just not Form 1s. The NFA branch is the least of our problems. They just want their money. That doesn't seem to jive with other "source" info. WUT is going on? |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 9:35:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Yep. Pics or it didn't happen...
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Posted: 7/2/2015 12:39:51 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That doesn't seem to jive with other "source" info. WUT is going on? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The ATF stated a week ago that nothing with any other NFA item legal in WA (suppressors or AOWs) were being affected. Form 1s, 3,s and 4s were not being suspended or denied. It was only for SBRs. And as of this week another dealer said that they are approving Form 3 and 4 for SBRs, just not Form 1s. The NFA branch is the least of our problems. They just want their money. That doesn't seem to jive with other "source" info. WUT is going on? Well, I work for I5 Guns, a type 07 FFL with a Class 3 SOT... that means we are a manufacturer of NFA items. My boss, the guy who is on the FFL spoke to the NFA branch and was told that it was only SBRs that were being affected. A customer we believe said Chip at Cascade stated that Form 4s were being processed. If you know who Chip is, you know he's a stand up guy and not given to passing out bullshit information. |
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Posted: 7/2/2015 3:50:57 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you know who Chip is, you know he's a stand up guy and not given to passing out bullshit information. Yeah I wouldn't go that far... |
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Posted: 7/2/2015 6:02:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah I wouldn't go that far... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you know who Chip is, you know he's a stand up guy and not given to passing out bullshit information. Yeah I wouldn't go that far... I would, and second Unicorn's opinion. |
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Posted: 7/2/2015 9:31:02 PM EDT
[#14]
So I contacted my dealer again today to check on any progress on this whole issue. They indicated that they have not received a stamp from BATFE on a Form 4 submission in 3 weeks. This is a shop that would normally receive several dozen in that time frame. While the dealer tried to assure that this was just a temporary hiccup.....I am skeptical. I have 4 NFA items sitting on their shelves representing over 5K of my hard earned dollars. Not happy since I am 4 months in since my checks were cashed....I sense that it is going to be several more months before anything clears. Maybe I will have these by Halloween. Anybody else having good luck on a form 4 submission? Anybody get a stamp recently?
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Posted: 7/2/2015 10:34:49 PM EDT
[#15]
So if I understand correctly from all this posts here that they will be approving form 4 for WA just not at this time?
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Posted: 7/2/2015 10:39:34 PM EDT
[#16]
I got an approved Form 4 in the mail today for a suppressor, with the approval date being 6/25.
I did get a disapproved Form 4 for an SBR earlier this week, but that was because someone (not me!!) forgot to sign the form. A delegated signer in TX forgot to sign it......(oops). |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 11:01:18 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I got an approved Form 4 in the mail today for a suppressor, with the approval date being 6/25. I did get a disapproved Form 4 for an SBR earlier this week, but that was because someone (not me!!) forgot to sign the form. A delegated signer in TX forgot to sign it......(oops). I got one of those back this week too. I picked up the letter and was like "this thing must have a dozen form 4's in it!". It was just a copy of the persons trust and a denied form 4 that SS forgot to sign. |
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Posted: 7/3/2015 9:24:54 PM EDT
[#18]
I'd like to see who has an approved Form 4 post 5/27/2015 for a SBR
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Posted: 7/4/2015 3:47:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So I contacted my dealer again today to check on any progress on this whole issue. They indicated that they have not received a stamp from BATFE on a Form 4 submission in 3 weeks. This is a shop that would normally receive several dozen in that time frame. While the dealer tried to assure that this was just a temporary hiccup.....I am skeptical. I have 4 NFA items sitting on their shelves representing over 5K of my hard earned dollars. Not happy since I am 4 months in since my checks were cashed....I sense that it is going to be several more months before anything clears. Maybe I will have these by Halloween. Anybody else having good luck on a form 4 submission? Anybody get a stamp recently? 4 months isn't really that long for NFA. It's not on her desk yet at this point. Even if there is a question on our laws, it'll be worked out most likely by the time your form even gets to anybody there. |
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Posted: 7/12/2015 1:39:30 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ATF stated a week ago that nothing with any other NFA item legal in WA (suppressors or AOWs) were being affected. Form 1s, 3,s and 4s were not being suspended or denied. It was only for SBRs. And as of this week another dealer said that they are approving Form 3 and 4 for SBRs, just not Form 1s. The NFA branch is the least of our problems. They just want their money. If they just wanted our money, they'd hire more people and process more forms. I don't think the examiners really care either way, but the people running the show are most certainly dragging their feet on purpose. The pause in form 3/4 approvals that lasted for a few weeks, combined with the statements of many people who called in to the NFA branch, are a pretty good indicator that they did stop approving forms for a while there. |
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Posted: 7/14/2015 6:31:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Received a stamp on a SBR today on a Form 4 Trust. Check was cashed 3-12-2015. 4 months and 12 days later the stamp arrived and SBR in hand. Looks like things are moving again.
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Posted: 7/15/2015 10:35:44 PM EDT
[#22]
What state was the SBR manufactured in?
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Posted: 7/16/2015 12:00:42 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What state was the SBR manufactured in? Wouldn't that be irrelevant on a Form4 transfer? |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 12:09:00 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What state was the SBR manufactured in? Wouldn't that be irrelevant on a Form4 transfer? No. Initially it was reported that SOTs in WA could only sell SBRs manufactured in WA, to LEO/Mil customers. So I'd rather not have my LGS engrave my lower, hold my rifle for several months, and get a denial. |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 12:11:22 AM EDT
[#25]
Ive read on Facebook that Pantel Tactical in Renton is Form4'ing SBRs to local customers.
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Posted: 7/16/2015 12:39:45 AM EDT
[#26]
anyone got a form 1 for a silencer back recently? Was going to submit 2-3. The last approval I see for a F1 silencer is 5/11/15.
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Posted: 7/16/2015 1:28:11 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive read on Facebook that Pantel Tactical in Renton is Form4'ing SBRs to local customers. Given that Form 1's blew up in late May, what we don't know about Pantel (or RA, or any other WA manufacturer) is if the NFA branch is APPROVING those Form 4 applications to the end-user. They haven't worked their way to the top of the processing pile yet. Manufacturers do not get "permission" to build NFA items, they just build them and report to the NFA branch via Form 2 that they've been built. The NFA branch will acknowledge that, but unless there is a fuck-up on the paperwork (wrong EIN, etc.), it goes in the registry. But happens when that manufacturer goes to transfer the newly made SBR to a WA dealer (Form 3) or WA end-user (Form 4)? That's where it might get sticky. Sure, they can make all the SBRs they want, the NFA branch will just say they can only go out via Form 5 to LE/MIL or Form 3 to out-of-state dealers. Let's say that happens. Then we need them to Form 3 it to an ID or OR dealer (2 months), so that dealer can Form 3 it BACK into WA (2 months), so we can wait 4 months for the Form 4 to get approved. Oh yeah, and somebody is getting paid a little (or a lot) each time that happens..... I really hope that WA manufacturers CAN make them, because I've had a Form 1 denied myself, so I'd be happy to pay an 02SOT to make the SBR for me and transfer it back on a Form 3. But I also don't want to pay for it, and have it get stuck in limbo, with another company's engraving, and have to go with Plan B (out of state 02SOT).... |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 1:30:57 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Given that Form 1's blew up in late May, what we don't know about Pantel (or RA, or any other WA manufacturer) is if the NFA branch is APPROVING those Form 4 applications to the end-user. They haven't worked their way to the top of the processing pile yet. Manufacturers do not get "permission" to build NFA items, they just build them and report to the NFA branch via Form 2 that they've been built. The NFA branch will acknowledge that, but unless there is a fuck-up on the paperwork (wrong EIN, etc.), it goes in the registry. But happens when that manufacturer goes to transfer the newly made SBR to a WA dealer (Form 3) or WA end-user (Form 4)? That's where it might get sticky. Sure, they can make all the SBRs they want, the NFA branch will just say they can only go out via Form 5 to LE/MIL or Form 3 to out-of-state dealers. Let's say that happens. Then we need them to Form 3 it to an ID or OR dealer (2 months), so that dealer can Form 3 it BACK into WA (2 months), so we can wait 4 months for the Form 4 to get approved. Oh yeah, and somebody is getting paid a little (or a lot) each time that happens..... I really hope that WA manufacturers CAN make them, because I've had a Form 1 denied myself, so I'd be happy to pay an 02SOT to make the SBR for me and transfer it back on a Form 3. But I also don't want to pay for it, and have it get stuck in limbo, with another company's engraving, and have to go with Plan B (out of state 02SOT).... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ive read on Facebook that Pantel Tactical in Renton is Form4'ing SBRs to local customers. Given that Form 1's blew up in late May, what we don't know about Pantel (or RA, or any other WA manufacturer) is if the NFA branch is APPROVING those Form 4 applications to the end-user. They haven't worked their way to the top of the processing pile yet. Manufacturers do not get "permission" to build NFA items, they just build them and report to the NFA branch via Form 2 that they've been built. The NFA branch will acknowledge that, but unless there is a fuck-up on the paperwork (wrong EIN, etc.), it goes in the registry. But happens when that manufacturer goes to transfer the newly made SBR to a WA dealer (Form 3) or WA end-user (Form 4)? That's where it might get sticky. Sure, they can make all the SBRs they want, the NFA branch will just say they can only go out via Form 5 to LE/MIL or Form 3 to out-of-state dealers. Let's say that happens. Then we need them to Form 3 it to an ID or OR dealer (2 months), so that dealer can Form 3 it BACK into WA (2 months), so we can wait 4 months for the Form 4 to get approved. Oh yeah, and somebody is getting paid a little (or a lot) each time that happens..... I really hope that WA manufacturers CAN make them, because I've had a Form 1 denied myself, so I'd be happy to pay an 02SOT to make the SBR for me and transfer it back on a Form 3. But I also don't want to pay for it, and have it get stuck in limbo, with another company's engraving, and have to go with Plan B (out of state 02SOT).... I was under the impression from the facebook posts that they've had a couple approved Form4 SBRs. I have no personal experience with Pantel, just relaying what I've read assuming I correctly recalled it. |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 2:11:04 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Given that Form 1's blew up in late May, what we don't know about Pantel (or RA, or any other WA manufacturer) is if the NFA branch is APPROVING those Form 4 applications to the end-user. They haven't worked their way to the top of the processing pile yet. Manufacturers do not get "permission" to build NFA items, they just build them and report to the NFA branch via Form 2 that they've been built. The NFA branch will acknowledge that, but unless there is a fuck-up on the paperwork (wrong EIN, etc.), it goes in the registry. But happens when that manufacturer goes to transfer the newly made SBR to a WA dealer (Form 3) or WA end-user (Form 4)? That's where it might get sticky. Sure, they can make all the SBRs they want, the NFA branch will just say they can only go out via Form 5 to LE/MIL or Form 3 to out-of-state dealers. Let's say that happens. Then we need them to Form 3 it to an ID or OR dealer (2 months), so that dealer can Form 3 it BACK into WA (2 months), so we can wait 4 months for the Form 4 to get approved. Oh yeah, and somebody is getting paid a little (or a lot) each time that happens..... I really hope that WA manufacturers CAN make them, because I've had a Form 1 denied myself, so I'd be happy to pay an 02SOT to make the SBR for me and transfer it back on a Form 3. But I also don't want to pay for it, and have it get stuck in limbo, with another company's engraving, and have to go with Plan B (out of state 02SOT).... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ive read on Facebook that Pantel Tactical in Renton is Form4'ing SBRs to local customers. Given that Form 1's blew up in late May, what we don't know about Pantel (or RA, or any other WA manufacturer) is if the NFA branch is APPROVING those Form 4 applications to the end-user. They haven't worked their way to the top of the processing pile yet. Manufacturers do not get "permission" to build NFA items, they just build them and report to the NFA branch via Form 2 that they've been built. The NFA branch will acknowledge that, but unless there is a fuck-up on the paperwork (wrong EIN, etc.), it goes in the registry. But happens when that manufacturer goes to transfer the newly made SBR to a WA dealer (Form 3) or WA end-user (Form 4)? That's where it might get sticky. Sure, they can make all the SBRs they want, the NFA branch will just say they can only go out via Form 5 to LE/MIL or Form 3 to out-of-state dealers. Let's say that happens. Then we need them to Form 3 it to an ID or OR dealer (2 months), so that dealer can Form 3 it BACK into WA (2 months), so we can wait 4 months for the Form 4 to get approved. Oh yeah, and somebody is getting paid a little (or a lot) each time that happens..... I really hope that WA manufacturers CAN make them, because I've had a Form 1 denied myself, so I'd be happy to pay an 02SOT to make the SBR for me and transfer it back on a Form 3. But I also don't want to pay for it, and have it get stuck in limbo, with another company's engraving, and have to go with Plan B (out of state 02SOT).... Can the 02SOT just Form 2 the SBR, and then Form 4 it to me, the customer? If they're the same FFL/SOT that is. |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 2:27:50 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can the 02SOT just Form 2 the SBR, and then Form 4 it to me, the customer? If they're the same FFL/SOT that is. That's what Pantel is appearing to be doing. Eta: after asking him, he hasnt received an approved form4 yet. |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 4:13:54 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what Pantel is appearing to be doing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Can the 02SOT just Form 2 the SBR, and then Form 4 it to me, the customer? If they're the same FFL/SOT that is. That's what Pantel is appearing to be doing. I've made a couple and sent out f4's, no approvals back though. But it seems that lots of places are doing it and it's big companies like aero/rainier/wca etc. |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 12:44:51 PM EDT
[#32]
That's good news. Sounds like Rainer Arms is offering this service too. That may be the route I have to take to get my Scorpion SBR'd before (if) 41p takes effect.
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Posted: 7/18/2015 9:27:46 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what Pantel is appearing to be doing. Eta: after asking him, he hasnt received an approved form4 yet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Can the 02SOT just Form 2 the SBR, and then Form 4 it to me, the customer? If they're the same FFL/SOT that is. That's what Pantel is appearing to be doing. Eta: after asking him, he hasnt received an approved form4 yet. They can try, but that Form 4 will be denied if any of the examiners are paying attention. The RCW states that a SBR can only be manufactured for LE, military, or export. A form 2 is just telling the ATF that it was made then it gets rubber stamped... since the FFL SOT already is paying the tax. They might be able to Form 3 it to another dealer out of the state, then another Form 3 back... maybe. |
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