Kitsap county been trying to shut down 1924club for a long time now.


Recently rhey said "You have to file for a new permit" .


The club said fuck you.



Judge heard the case earlier this week in front of a big crowd but quietly released the ruling today on friday p.m


The county can require these arbitrary permits and thus shut down the range.

What the hell is 1924club? Are you talking about KRRC?

Unfortunately it is starting to look like Kitsap will do anything to shut down KRRC. Beyond all the fabricated complaints about the club, there has been talk of the property "being in the way" of a proposed massive public park.

I'm surprised the club has not sued Kitsap, as it seems to me that this all borders on legal abuse by the county.

Why didn't they just apply for the permit like Poulsbo did?

It would appear that the county (or some entity) is trying to use permits, legal maneuvers, environmental concerns, and just about anything else they can think of to price the club out of existence.  I don't know why no one just comes out and accuses Kitsap county of bullying the club in an attempt to get rid of them.  "Bullying" is sort of the cause celeb, and maybe the citizens would realize the bullying for what it is and hopefully put a stop to it.  

Using things like the above noted ones is a pretty common tactic to tie up a company, business, or property owner you don't like until they just can't afford to fight any more.  Does anyone know how the club manages to deal with the attorney's fees all this may be costing them?  Do they have club members that are attorneys working for them pro bono, do they have a legal fees insurance policy, or do the members dues just keep going up?

The guy that runs the club is a real motherfucker, he's been telling the county to fuck themselves (and been winning) for a long time.
It might be game over this time around.

Bad relationships with those in power eventually causes some sort of problem.  I guess it has finally caught up with him.  Don't the members have any say in how things are handled, or is the club owned by one person who has all the power?

They can show up at a club meeting and nominate someone else for club President. The problem with most gun clubs is most are run/dominated by a well organized Faction ( that shows up to vote ) that doesn't have all the members interests in mind and they will run a club into the ground with their flat earth thinking .....this is what is happening at Kitsap with the faction that has dominated the club for the last ten yrs or more.

Kitsap's drama is mostly their own doing .....being bad neighbors and pissing everyone off . Sad because it is a nice range that can't easily be replaced.

That did happen at the last meeting.  The Club president (Smith) and executive officer (Carter) were re-elected.


That is how most democracies/republics are run in the world.


They have the interests of those members who care enough to have a voice and vote.  That is how America works too.


What flat Earth thinking is this?  KRRC is the only club without caliber restrictions in Kitsap County.  I can't shoot my 50 BMG at Poulsbo Sportsman Club even with a silencer.  KRRC allows rapid fire as long as it is controlled and the bullets do not miss the berm; Poulsbo limits you to one round every two seconds for shooters not competing.  I like the PSC, I'm a member there for the last several years.


How is the KRRC being a bad neighbor?  Did you know that Kitsap County is the only jurisdiction I've ever heard of that will sue a rifle range over noise then tell them use of noise abatement devices or structures is illegal?  The former Prosecuting Attorney actually said this in writing; but the AG disagreed saying a box was not a dangerous weapon.  Go figure.

The people running Kitsap County are not playing fair.  A rifle range should be allowed to operate in accordance with state law, but instead they listen to the likes of people such as Kevin Gross who claims he can feel gun fire concussion from the KRRC 1-2/3's miles away while inside his house.  I can't feel this concussion on range property, much less off of it and over a mile away.  The county says the KRRC is a threat to public safety because two rounds out of the millions fired each year have left the buffer zone and damaged private property, no good proof of course.  What they are really saying is that the KRRC is one of the least threats to safety in the County compared to just about any other recreational activity.  But they still want to get rid of the club.

Show up at any Commissioner's meeting and you can see that club supporters far outnumber those who are against it.  When I was at the meeting which dealt with the land swap with the DNR, little old ladies got up to say how much they appreciated the KRRC in the past so they could learn to shoot and defend themselves.  This is still the same KRRC today.  The great majority of our shooters attending the basic personal protection class are middle aged and older women.

Randy

I would say zealous defender of the RKBA myself.  I don't agree with everything Carter says, but he is an asset to the KRRC.  It is not game over.  The KRRC is still open; still shooting.  We have to see what the judge says on April 24th and go from there.

Randy

As far as I know Poulsbo doesn't have a permit yet, they are still waiting for approval, if it ever gets approved.  If it is approved I'm sure Central Kitsap Safe and Quiet will eventually turn against them and claim they are a dangerous liability as they claim the KRRC is.  When complaints are made to the County, they review the permit and may revoke it as they see fit.

I think the KRRC is trying assert it's grandfathered status that was affirmed by the appeals court.  Of course there are people who disagree and say the grandfather status means the county can still run the rifle ranges.  

Kitsap County ordinances do not require the County to issue a permit even if the applicant does everything right, it is issued at the whim of the County.  They can put any limitation on the permit, for example, no rifles >30 caliber (what Judge Serko wanted), rim fire only, severely curtail shooting hours or eliminate shooting all together.

The KRRC has been operating safely for a long time, but the County wants to step in and run the range instead.  You trust them?

Randy

This has happened already.


There is insurance that pays for some of the legal fees, most significantly the large fees for the trial prior to the shutdown.  The club also has a lawyer that represented them at the hearing last week.  

Member dues have gone up in the past.  For a while there was a $100 a year additional to the dues, even for life members.  That is gone now.  Membership is $100 a year at KRRC.  I was paying $75 a year for family membership at PSC, it is now $125 with an additional $100 for new members.  PSC also has a membership cap with a waiting list.

Randy

I hope this gets worked out soon.  I'm moving up there next week and was looking forward to having a range just down the road from the house.

I am really sweating this one, I finally found a place in WA that I really like to shoot at and its close enough to get out there about 3 times a month... Now I think its a lose-lose situation, if they agree to get a permit I'm afraid they will be regulated out of existence (which i think is the goal here) with stupid/expensive rules under the guise of safety and if they don't get the permit they are going to shut them down that way.  Kitsap really seems determined to get this range and I'm afraid they are just going to throw money at this until they get their way.  

There are a lot of guys who are good for the shooting sports.  RANB for one gives up the majority of his Saturdays teaching kids to shoot small bore and has done significantly more than most of us on here to further gun rights in WA...  There are some other great programs run at that range will probably disappear from the area.  Not to mention the frequent defensive courses that aren't offered elsewhere.

Really a shitty situation for those of us enjoying a safe, well run range, who potentially end up losing to an overreaching local government.  Of course i didn't make it out to the range last weekend and I'm not so hopeful I will have a place to shoot this Sunday when i have free time.

-Mike

Many gun clubs (and other organizations) structure elections that require people to be present to vote.  Mail in ballots are seldom allowed.  This means that only people who can get time off from work or family obligations can't vote, even though they are members in good standing.  I don't have any idea if this club's elections are structured this way, but all other gun clubs I have been members of were that way.  That meant that in over 20 years, I was only able to attend 2 elections.  

Because I can't say whether the Kitsap club is structured this way this gripe may or may not apply to them.  I do know that clubs structured that way tend to favor keeping the old guard in power.  However, as I'm not a member, I have no idea which way the entire membership of Kitsap would vote if the could…it may be that the vote would come out the same way as it did, with reelections.

I do think it would be a shame to see another gun club go down in flames just because the county, or some local residents have an "ax to grind" with a club that provides a good place for people to shoot.  If those citizens concerned about safety really want to save lives, they should be out lobbying to get a dry county (forbid sale of all alcoholic beverages).  That would likely save far more lives and property from the destruction that drunk drivers can cause.

Reports of stray bullets on property are easy to phony up, or otherwise provide false information about the bullet's origin.

Thanks for the information Randy.

The KRRC holds their meetings the 2nd Thursday of each month from 7pm to 9pm.  Most of the members have a chance to attend meetings as far as I know.  I miss most of the meetings as I coach the Junior Small Bore each Thursday night.  Each year they have a pot luck and drawings for prizes based on member participation in running the range and maintenance hours put in; the elections take place at this time.  There were over 100 members present for the last election.    


Most members barely participate other than paying their dues and showing up for an occasional working party.  There is a core of about 50 people or so that really keep the range going.  Since there is only one (I think) paid employee at the range, everything depends upon volunteers unless there is something that comes up requiring professional work.  The old guard tends to stay in power as long as they keep those willing to vote happy.

Personally I put in about 7 hours a week on working party (coaching the kids) and about 3-4 hours a week as range safety officer.  This is more than average, but far less than some others do.


Then the county would do what ever it takes to keep the range open.  Without the ranges open people take to the woods to shoot legally and illegally in far greater numbers, which means there is more likely to be injuries or damage.

Randy

Then the county would do what ever it takes to keep the range open.  Without the ranges open people take to the woods to shoot legally and illegally in far greater numbers, which means there is more likely to be injuries or damage.

Randy


That is so true.  I quit going to most easily accessible outdoor shooting areas when I noted that they were mostly full of crank freaks, drunks, or other types of bubbas.  I felt I was very likely to be robbed, or shot by some idiot who wouldn't even quit handling firearms when people went downrange to place targets.  Even after being politely asked to stop handling firearms until people came back from down range my requests were ignored with a "Don't worry dude, it is unloaded".  I thought that he would have had a very difficult time finding a more classic line with which to precede an accidental shooting.  So I just gave up and left, never to return.

Only 7 people have show up for a quorum.

KRRC could have stopped this yrs ago by working with the county to address safety issues ( Pittman-Rob , State and NRA provide all sorts of grants for range safety improvements) ..... but decided to go the FU we don't need permits and can do whatever we want route .

The club is shutdown for the time being.  http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/judge-orders-shooting-to-stop-at-gun-club_85785856



Noise issues, what a joke.  Kitsap County is the only place in the state I'm aware of that will tell a shooting range that use of noise abatement is illegal.

Ranb

Which safety issues?  Are you speaking of the two bullets (out of millions) that were claimed to have left the buffer zone and ended up on private property?  The way I heard it the person making that claim had to adjust the data to make the claim in court.

Randy

"Adjusting the data to make the claim in court", about bullets landing on their property was just what I was writing about earlier.  It is all too easy for someone to salt their property with a bullet or two in order to claim it came from some place they want to cause trouble for.  On the other hand, if someone truly did have a bullet strike their house, and had the police department's CSI unit back track the bullet and it's trajectory, I might be more convinced that there is an issue that needs solving.

The county is being disingenuous by saying they want to shut down a range to improve citizen safety over one or two stray bullets (of questionable origin in any case) out of the millions of bullets fired from a range.  That brings me back to my statement that if the county truly wanted to resolve safety issues for citizens of the county, they would seek to close down sales of alcoholic beverages rather than going after a range over one or two stray bullets.  We can clearly show that booze causes vastly more damage and death than the Kitsap range.  Historically, prohibitions of all sorts either have, or are currently failing.  People will find and use whatever they want, be that substances, alcoholic beverages, firearms, or anything else.

However, I suspect I am preaching to the choir, and otherwise, this sentiment will fall on deaf ears.

Just look at what Machias is going through with bullets leaving the range.....

Kitsap could easily baffle the pistol range and rifle range, both already have a decent range fan already and completely quell the range safety question of bullets leaving the range and it would be almost free with P-R, State fish & game, NRA grants.

But no the flat earth'rs want to fight it out in a glorious losing legal battle that is going to end with the club closed for good.

You obviously have no idea what we are up against.  The KRRC has a pistol line, a rifle line and at least eight action pistol bays that are used on a regular basis.  Central Kitsap Safe and Quiet will not be put back in their cage with the installation of baffles.  They will still claim they can feel gunfire concussion 1-2/3's miles away from inside their house and claim it sounds like a battle zone making it to scary to use their property.  In other words baffles will not suddenly make them start telling the truth.  Claiming (not proving) that two bullets out of millions fired in over 80 years left the buffer zone is not a good reason to spend that much money of baffles.  

If the club can be forced out of business, the 70 acre buffer zone around the active shooting acreage will most likely be absorbed into the Heritage Park owned by the County which is something I suspect they wanted in the first place prior to the land swap with the DNR.

Randy

Its a bummer. Just got my membership in February and have been shooting 2-3 times a month. I would have loved to go out today.

Looks like I'll keep all my shooting in the woods now.

KRRC was the only range worth the drive from Seattle.

interlake in kirkland is an outdoor range with 200 yards, no silly range rules, and no overbearing range officers.

I'm a range officer at KRRC.  We were taught to be like waiters, the customer does not know we are there unless we are needed or something goes wrong.  I and most other RO's try to stick to this custom.  But yes, we can be overbearing at times, especially when needed.

The judges order says "no shooting activities" and that the KRRC is to ensure no one "shoots any firearms".  I'm trying to find out if I can still use air rifles and air soft.  The range is still open with RO's on duty; just no shooting at this time.  

Randy

Massed longbow practice time.  Remember to bellow loudly in Welsh, it helps the archers with their aim.  

You didn't need to be a member to shoot at KRRC.

If I wanted to get a membership at a range it would make more sense to get one at SPAA rather than commuting to Kirkland since I'm in North Seattle.

Just came from a meeting at the KRRC.  We will not apply for a conditional use permit.  Doing so would in effect surrender our grandfathered rights and allow the county to dictate just about every single detail of how the range is operated.  The fact is the KRRC is safe, no one has ever been injured off range as a result of range activities, the noise measurements the county performed did not give them any useful data and the county has attempted to prohibit the use of noise abatement equipment/structures at the range.  They just want us to go away.

Applying for a use permit will allow the county to simply force the club to cease operations at their whim.

Randy

What do they plan on doing? use the court system to fight it out?

Yes.  First is to appeal the order shutting down the range; the Judge says we can resume shooting if we apply for a permit.  The KRRC feels this is a scheme to give up grandfathered rights affirmed by the appeals court.

Randy

I agree.

Seems fishy

I wonder what kind of additional restrictions the Poulsbo Sportsman Club will have placed on it once they get their permit?  They have action and black powder shooting away from the baffled firing lines; they might lose that.  They might face caliber restrictions in addition to those they have now as well as curtailed shooting hours.  

Randy

If you read the ordinance (and I know you have Randy, a few times I'm sure!), it would appear they will be limited to no more than two competitive events a month.  RO must be arms distance from shooter (severely limits stage design!).  Action shooting practice severely curtailed. The list goes on and on, and is sure to get longer as Kitsap County can rewrite the rules on a whim.

At the action shooting events I've seen the RO is normally about an arm's length away holding the sound activated timer.  This is a standard practice as far as I know.  Too  bad the County thinks so little of the way our ranges are run that they have to codify it in their regulations.  This is just another example of how out of touch they are.

Randy

Sounds like they want you to apply for a permit so they can deny it. Especially if there has already been a court case that ruled that the range was grandfathered in.

Oh they will let them run for a year or three, just to say, "see it's all fine...you didnt have to worry".

Then they will shut it down either outright or through severe regulation.

This just blows. Heading out to a range today and I would rather be at KRRC,been shooting there for 40 years.
It would seem Kitsap Count has it backwards.
http://q13fox.com/2013/08/13/pierce-county-to-protect-gun-ranges/

Kitsap co. is in serious denial about its status as a largely rural area.

Better hope a complaint about rifle ranges never ends up in Judge Serko's court in Pierce County.  She decided that rifles greater than 30 caliber were inappropriate for use at a rifle range and that laws exempting a shooting area from noise regulations did not apply when a person complained that the noise was a nuisance.  It did not matter that one complainer set up his own shooting range in his yard next to the KRRC or that another man 1-2/3 miles away claimed he could feel gunfire concussion from the range while inside his house; the same concussion I couldn't even feel from the parking lot.

Randy

I went to a Kitsap County Commissioner's meeting last night.  I wanted to tell them why some people didn't trust them to properly permit (run) a rifle range.  I explained (for the fourth time) how they sued the KRRC then soon after told the club that using noise abatement devices (other than silencers) was illegal.  I told about how I wrote to the BATFE for their opinion on a shooting box and that they said it was not legally a silencer.  The WA AG's informal opinion was that a box was not a dangerous weapon (RCW 9.41.250 is the dangerous weapons statute). I politely demanded an explanation for the county's behavior from Garrido and Gelder.  I got the same stupid answer as always; "Please leave us your contact information".

It pissed me off so bad I abruptly left the podium and the next person took my place to give them an earful about how we are lacking another place to practice shooting.

When I got home I wrote to the new Commissioner, Wolfe.  I told him the history of the County's efforts to prohibit noise abatement while suing over noise.  I sent him copies of the BATFE and AG opinions.  I had left a copy of the Prosecuting Attorney's e-mail along with my contact info at the meeting.  If Wolfe gets back with any reason for the County's actions I'll be thrilled.  If not, then he is just as morally bankrupt as the other two.

Randy

Thanks for the update Randy.  Sorry it is so frustrating for your club.

Just returned from the Saddle Butte Machine gun shoot in Albany OR. Compared to that place KRRC practically doesn't make any noise at all.Link

Does that area have laws that protect ranges?  Kitsap County is run to restrict shooting in many places and rules are written so that ranges are highly restricted.  If people complain about noise, the County says they have to take action.  If people complain about the lack of facilities, then they have to pound sand.

Randy

A while back I finally got a reply from the Commissioners on their attempts to prohibit the use of noise abatement.  They deny any attempt to "affirmatively prohibit" the use of noise abatement at a rifle range.  Of course they would, as this would be done by passing an ordinance.  They still refuse to acknowledge that their prosecuting attorney told the KRRC that use of noise abatement was illegal.

The KRRC is appealing the ruling by Judge Root.  We'll see how this goes soon.

Randy

Will they acknowledge that using noise abatement is NOT illegal? The run around they're giving the range should be actionably illegal in a just world.

I say build noise abatement and see what happens but I understand not wanting to put the club on the line.

Whether or not noise abatement is legal was settled back in 2011 when the AG issued an informal opinion that a box was not a dangerous weapon.  The big deal I'm making about this is that the county sued a range over noise then told them that use of noise abatement was illegal.

I've been trying to get the Commissioners to tell me WHY their prosecuting attorney would tell us that.

Randy

Hmm, as an aside, I just spent a few minutes looking at Kitsap County's "Prohibited Shooting Areas" map.  It would appear that I can walk about 150' from my back door and be on county land that is not designated as "prohibited"...



Interesting    

Some information;  http://gunsafety.org/hearing-today-motion-to-disqualify-judge-for-bias/



Randy

WTF?  Is it normal for a judge to judge them self?