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Posted: 11/26/2014 1:07:17 AM EDT
[#1]
i don't talk to anyone on the phone but my wife unless I'm being paid, but I can answer your questions:
1. the gundocx silver trust is designed to hold both NFA guns and non-NFA guns. Trusts can own all kinds of property. Putting non-NFA items in your new trust will be as simple as listing them on a schedule of some kind, just like the schedule A your current bronze trusts uses to list NFA items. I don't, yet, have a silver trust, but I am upgrading to it soon (submitted the forms today). 2. hmmm...there doesn't seem to be any other questions... 
If there are any others, feel free to post them. I'm not a lawyer, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn, but I (and likely others!) will do what we can. Gun / trust law is a complicated subject, so your best bet is always to get your questions answered by a real lawyer. The NW Gun Law guys are selling you a product, they should be more than happy to talk to you about it and answer any questions you might have. I know they are doing a couple of "group buys" in the near future to beat the in-effect date of I-594... |
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Posted: 11/26/2014 1:26:52 AM EDT
[#2]
yeah the group buys are saturday
so i dont have to do a transfer or anything right?? i just list them on the schedule A and thats it?? like i said i have a suppressor in the bronze already and 2 in waiting so they will just roll over to the silver right?? |
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Posted: 11/26/2014 2:12:51 AM EDT
[#3]
I don't think anyone really knows for SURE how things are going to play out with trusts after 12/4. As the lawyers said in their email, the safest bet is to have a trust own this stuff and have everyone you'll ever share the guns with as trustees in the hopes that 'sharing' won't constitute a transfer if the trust is the owner the entire time. I don't think anyone knows what the AG will do when people try to add weapons to a trust later....including the AG.
That's part of the problem with 594, it's sort of the "we have to enact it before you get to know what's in it" gun law. The AG might be lax, or they might be militant...hard to say. I'm inclined to believe that the gun docx lawyers are right though. Better safe than sorry on things like this!
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Posted: 11/26/2014 8:49:13 AM EDT
[#4]
Have a link to the group buy?
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Posted: 11/26/2014 12:17:56 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
i have a bronze trust and i guess i am going to upgrade to a silver. i seem to be missing something?? i would like someone who has a little time to call me and maybe explain it to me tonight. how or can i put my regular guns in the trust and how?? i have 1 supressor in it now and am waiting on 2 more. i need it explained in laymans terms my number is 3606075516. i am going to send it in tomorrow morning to the nw gun people. Call or email these guys as they are behind the gundocx trusts. I'm going to give them a bunch more money for a full estate plan that will include a silver trust. |
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Posted: 11/26/2014 10:57:54 PM EDT
[#6]
From an email I received: Silver and Gold Editions are intended to administer both NFA and non-NFA firearms. They permit additional trustees and beneficiaries to be named. We encourage anyone interested in upgrading to a Silver or Gold Edition it is recommended to do so prior to December 4 (the effective date of I-594.) What’s the hurry? You may avoid hassle, future cost, and gain some flexibility. First, our current understanding of I-594 is that a transfer from you (a person) to your trust (a person) on or after December 5 will require an FFL background check on each transferred firearm. This could prove to be very expensive if you have a large collection. Second, a trust offers the hope of greater flexibility in enjoyment of your firearms. Here is a snapshot of some of our legal reasoning about why this is true. Our Silver or Gold Edition GunDocx Trusts allow the naming of additional Trustee-Beneficiaries. Under trust law, a trustee may possess for the trust (i.e. the "person”) and a beneficiary may enjoy. Appointing someone in both capacities appears consistent with I-594. It is the same reasoning by which ATF has treats the "sharing” of NFA firearms across the United States between trustees as a conveyance, not criminal transfer. NOTE THAT for now, since I-594 is so uncertain the safest way to use your trust is to only allow persons who fit within an express I-594 exception to possess trust firearms. Also, it is strongly advised to appoint anyone other than you in writing as a Special-Trustee AND beneficiary to provide the strongest argument for I-594 compliance. It is unclear how a trust must be administered under I-594 with trustees other than you. It is possible that since a trustee acts as a fiduciary for the trust, which possesses trust property, that appointing a trustee does not meet the "intent to deliver to another person” language in the Initiative. A trust can only conduct its affairs through a trustee after all. So, if correct under I-594, no "transfer" would occur between trustees. This issue is similar to what occurs within a corporation, a partnership, or any of the other entities expressly defined as persons in I-594, and those entities face the same problem! Again, for now, the safest "transfer” of a trust-owned firearm should be done only to an individual person YOU appointed in writing as a Trustee-Beneficiary, who also fits within an I-594 exception. While it may work to simply do so to a Beneficiary who fits within an I-594 exception and who is WITH YOU, this is riskier given the state of the law. We must all accept the fact that I-594 is unclear. It’s up to you to decide what I-594 means and how you want to proceed. At this point we can only make educated guesses, especially with respect to use of a gun trust in Washington State. Even though we cannot know for sure how I-594 affects trusts, we still believe that trust-owned firearms are the best way to benefit from them. It’s your call as to whether to use a GunDocx Trust or not. Due to the high demand for GunDocx Trusts, we have organized 4 sessions for group deliveries this coming Saturday, 11/29/14. · Two sessions will be held at Lynnwood Guns in Lynnwood. o Lynnwood Guns o 20829 Hwy 99 o Lynnwood, WA 98036 o 425-774-8441 o At 10:00 am & 1:30 pm · Two sessions will be held at West Coast Armory and Indoor Range in Bellevue. o West Coast Armory and Indoor Range o 13216 SE 32nd St o Bellevue, WA 98005 o 425-641-2877 o At 10:00 am & 1:30 pm Because of the group setting we are discounting Silver Edition GunDocx Trusts by 20% to $400. If you already have a Bronze Edition GunDocx Trust, you will receive credit for the fee you spent on it towards the upgrade. If you are not sure what to do you may upgrade and restate your trust later. But, if we are proven correct about how I-594 treats trusts, funding one with firearms after December 4 means you will likely have to pay an FFL to do a background check and to transfer each firearm to the trust. To upgrade now, please submit a Silver Trust Intake Sheet (www.nwgunlawgroup.com) along with a copy of your current trust (if applicable). Office staff will call you to coordinate delivery at a session or by other means. Please let us know which session you wish to attend if that is your preference. Space is limited; first come, first served. |
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Posted: 11/27/2014 1:12:34 AM EDT
[#7]
i got the same thing
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Posted: 11/27/2014 2:48:38 AM EDT
[#8]
no response from them yet after I emailed in my bronze trust docs and my completed silve intake form. Hmmmm...maybe they are swamped with a high volume of responses? I hope not, because I want this done prior to the 4th and I can't make it to the group buys in there in the Seattle area.
No where on their site or the form do I see "use this email address" instructions...so I justed used the [email protected] address that they sent out the group-buy from. Hopefully that'll work...
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Posted: 11/27/2014 2:51:02 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no response from them yet after I emailed in my bronze trust docs and my completed silve intake form. Hmmmm...maybe they are swamped with a high volume of responses? I hope not, because I want this done prior to the 4th and I can't make it to the group buys in there in the Seattle area. same here. i am in kalama wa i sent my stuff this morning. they said after they send it to me i need to get it noterized before the 4th and then they will explain it to me |
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Posted: 11/27/2014 2:51:50 AM EDT
[#10]
wait...did they respond or not? what email address did you use? I've got no response...
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Posted: 11/27/2014 4:11:37 AM EDT
[#11]
Tagged for more info.
With a question or three. If I upgrade to Silver or Gold, then put my non NFA items on there, who has access to that. It seems "almost like" registration of my non NFA items. So who would have access to the trust? Can a warrant be issued for the trust? When I buy my next NFA item on my new Silver or Gold trust, doesn't the ATF then have a copy of my trust with my non NFA items? |
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Posted: 11/27/2014 4:29:59 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:If I upgrade to Silver or Gold, then put my non NFA items on there, who has access to that. It seems "almost like" registration of my non NFA items. Quote HistoryQuoted:If I upgrade to Silver or Gold, then put my non NFA items on there, who has access to that. It seems "almost like" registration of my non NFA items. See Bigwaylon's post in this thread... http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/435674_Trust_Schedule_A__or_similar__attached_to_Form_1_or_4.html he just lists the funding cash for his trust, doesn't put any guns, NFA or otherwise, on there...and always gets approved. So who would have access to the trust? You and your trustees, I suppose. Can a warrant be issued for the trust? No idea on this one. It makes sense that they could if its relevant to a crime though....I mean, can't the gov seize just about any kind of records (presuming they have a warrant to do so)? When I buy my next NFA item on my new Silver or Gold trust, doesn't the ATF then have a copy of my trust with my non NFA items? only if you list them. :) |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 5:46:49 PM EDT
[#13]
Bump. Anyone hearing back from the gundocx people? Seems they are either swamped or have 'gone dark'...
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Posted: 12/1/2014 6:44:09 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bump. Anyone hearing back from the gundocx people? Seems they are either swamped or have 'gone dark'... They called me Friday and sent me an email Friday afternoon stating it was mailed. Going to check the mail in about 1hour |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 8:38:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Couldn't someone with a current Bronze trust just amend the trust to add named beneficiaries and trustees? Section 1.03 of all the Bronze Gundocx trusts I've read say it can be amended at any time by the grantor. Seems easier (and cheaper) than going the "upgrade" route.
I'd probably suggest going with 2 trusts as well for those that want to go that route. One for NFA items, one for non-NFA firearms. "Name" + "Title I" + "Trust" "Name" + "Title II" + "Trust" Title I refers to regular firearms, and Title II is for NFA firearms after GCA'68.... |
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Posted: 12/1/2014 8:44:02 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
only if you list them. :) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When I buy my next NFA item on my new Silver or Gold trust, doesn't the ATF then have a copy of my trust with my non NFA items? only if you list them. :) If your trust references a "schedule" for the non-NFA firearms, the NFA Branch will kick it back if the schedule is not included. And the whole point of putting your non-NFA firearms into a trust (according to the email) is to handle post-I594 "transfers", so you would have to have them detailed on the schedule. Unless you are suggesting to have 2 schedules for the non-NFA firearms, the "real" one that you would use in-state should the need arise, and a "fake" one that you send to the NFA branch with future NFA applications. I'd not go down that path personally...... |
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Posted: 12/2/2014 1:00:30 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They called me Friday and sent me an email Friday afternoon stating it was mailed. Going to check the mail in about 1hour Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Bump. Anyone hearing back from the gundocx people? Seems they are either swamped or have 'gone dark'... They called me Friday and sent me an email Friday afternoon stating it was mailed. Going to check the mail in about 1hour Which email address did you use to send your documents? |
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Posted: 12/2/2014 1:10:34 AM EDT
[#18]
I faxed mine on Wednesday and hot the trust back today. Now there's a bunch of crap I don't understand
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Posted: 12/2/2014 3:15:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Rgr that, thanks!
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Posted: 12/2/2014 12:14:51 PM EDT
[#20]
In the silver trust there are schedules for your non-nfa firearms. One for rifles, one for shotguns, another for handguns, and so on.
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Posted: 12/2/2014 10:55:14 PM EDT
[#21]
finally got "the call" from them on my drive home from work tonight. They said they'd email me the pdfs. I need to have these signed by COB tomorrow....so I sure hope that email comes in soon! BTW, I work in downtown portland and have ready access to a notary there....is it OK to get an Oregon-licensed notary to notarize my stuff, or do I need to have a WA one do it? Does it matter?
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:28:42 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
finally got "the call" from them on my drive home from work tonight. They said they'd email me the pdfs. I need to have these signed by COB tomorrow....so I sure hope that email comes in soon! BTW, I work in downtown portland and have ready access to a notary there....is it OK to get an Oregon-licensed notary to notarize my stuff, or do I need to have a WA one do it? Does it matter? i dont see a problem with oregon. a notary is just proof that it was you that signed it and not someone else claiming to be you |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:52:10 AM EDT
[#23]
i would agree....but the docs the lawyer sent me say "notary public for the state of Washington" right on them next to where the notary is supposed to sign.
It's no big deal...being 'the boss' means I can start work late tomorrow...it's just annoying. I'm sure if the lawyer knew I wanted to sign in OR it could be changed, but he emailed me my new trust about 30 mins ago (burning the midnight oil!!!) and with tomorrow being the very last day to get this done "pre-594-in-effect", I'm not going to screw around on this!!!
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:21:43 PM EDT
[#24]
The resident state of the notary is not an issue. Draw a line through Washington, Type or neatly write in "Oregon".
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Posted: 12/3/2014 7:42:51 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i would agree....but the docs the lawyer sent me say "notary public for the state of Washington" right on them next to where the notary is supposed to sign. It's no big deal...being 'the boss' means I can start work late tomorrow...it's just annoying. I'm sure if the lawyer knew I wanted to sign in OR it could be changed, but he emailed me my new trust about 30 mins ago (burning the midnight oil!!!) and with tomorrow being the very last day to get this done "pre-594-in-effect", I'm not going to screw around on this!!!If you call them they can change it for you. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:26:37 PM EDT
[#26]
they could have, but the dude was already working at midnight, and I'm guessing mine wasn't the very last one he had to send out. It wasn't a big deal to go to the bank near my house and head in to work late. I lost a little bit of this week's overtime, but it's all good...that makes my boss happy anyway. I got 'in' before the deadline and that's all that matters. For the sake of the rest of state and future generations, hopefully 12/4/14 doesn't turn into the grandfather-date of infamy and this was all just an abundance of caution and a good excuse to add trustees, non-NFA guns, and to establish inheritance rules.
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Posted: 12/4/2014 9:14:42 PM EDT
[#27]
Here's a good one,,,,
So In Aug. I submitted two form 1s, same day with my "bronze gundocx "trust. I get one back approved Sept 15, Oct. 2 I get disapproved on the other one. No error on my part,,,,the reason was "trust documents seem invalid"....... According to NW gunlaw group it tends to happen on occasion because the "bronze trust" doesn't list additional beneficiaries like the silver and gold does. Since it was disapproved I get to do it all again and hope it gets approved. Two months later still haven't got my $200 back. Lame.......I guess I need to upgrade to a "silver trust"......... kind of annoying,,,,,,, mo money mo money mo money!!!! |
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Posted: 12/4/2014 11:22:41 PM EDT
[#28]
that's surprising. I've had 4 F1s approved with the Bronze trust, no issues at all. I didn't even know BATFE cared about beneficiaries.
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Posted: 1/27/2015 9:40:43 PM EDT
[#29]
am i understanding it correctly?
I want to build my very first SBR here in WA and i would like to do it with trust. SO........ If i get Bronze trust i will be able to engrave my lower and and after form one submitted and approved i can own my SBR ar. But if i want to get silencer for it later down the road i'll have to purchase another Bronze trust or just make addition to it like Schedule A form? Or am i not understanding something? Thank you for your help. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 10:26:26 PM EDT
[#30]
don't engrave until you get the stamp back. No reason to really. I mean, what if for some reason you get denied?
At any rate, you can put as many NFA items as you want into your trust.....or you can have a trust for each one. It's completely up to you. Simplest approach is just to have one trust with lots of NFA items in it....but in any case, you never have to buy another trust in your life if you don't want to, you can just put them on the first trust. Just make sure the trust has the name you REALLY want. Keep it short and sweet. Edit the trust PDF and use whatever name you decide on, and use that trust for every future submission. |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 9:20:44 PM EDT
[#31]
First, our current understanding of I-594 is that a transfer from you (a person) to your trust (a person) on or after December 5 will require an FFL background check on each transferred firearm. This could prove to be very expensive if you have a large collection.
Is it even possible for a FFL to do a NICS check on a trust? |
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Posted: 1/29/2015 10:42:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is it even possible for a FFL to do a NCIS check on a trust? Nope, only on a living, breathing human.... |
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Posted: 1/30/2015 12:51:43 AM EDT
[#33]
So how the hell are you supposed to transfer them into a trust? Or is the NICS check on me for each gun to be transferred into the trust I created?
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Posted: 1/30/2015 2:08:02 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So how the hell are you supposed to transfer them into a trust? Or is the NICS check on me for each gun to be transferred into the trust I created? Quote HistoryQuoted:
So how the hell are you supposed to transfer them into a trust? Or is the NICS check on me for each gun to be transferred into the trust I created? The same way you did the background check when you picked up the can for your trust. Assuming your dealer did it properly. You, as the representative of the trust, complete the 4473, and attach a written statement, executed underpenalties of perjury, stating: (A) the firearm is being acquired for the use ofand will be the property of that business entity and (B) the name and address of that business entity This was brought up to me in the NFA forum here, and when I attended the ATF interview with the owner of the store I work at when he was getting his FFL, I specifically asked about this. |
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Posted: 1/30/2015 2:11:54 AM EDT
[#35]
If you have the Silver, you don't send in the list of items on your schedule. Instead there is a page that states it's not needed or required, but it addresses it so they don't kick it back. I left mine at work (the scanner there is faster and more convenient) or I'd be able to better say what's on it.
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Posted: 1/30/2015 9:08:14 PM EDT
[#36]
Let's say that the guns you want to put in your trust are guns you already own and let's say they are non NFA guns. If I am reading I594 correctly I would need to pay a transfer fee on each one to transfer them into the trust even though I already own them because the trust is viewed as a separate person?
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Posted: 2/3/2015 9:31:30 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let's say that the guns you want to put in your trust are guns you already own and let's say they are non NFA guns. If I am reading I594 correctly I would need to pay a transfer fee on each one to transfer them into the trust even though I already own them because the trust is viewed as a separate person? That's the current understanding. Although how anyone would ever end up getting charged for it I'm not sure. Since the trust is in your control, and you're the person who the background check would be performed on, it may be possible to argue that the background check requirement doesn't apply. Nobody wants to be the test case. |
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