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Quoted: Seems the goal of most gun legislation advocates is to make life incrementally more difficult for the already law-abiding gun owner. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: What I don't understand about this is how the ffl s will be able to keep up. It seems like a huge pain in the rear for them. Sure they'll make 25 or 50 dollars but are they suppossed to just drop everything and help people coming in off the street? Seems like a pain in the ass to me. ERic Seems the goal of most gun legislation advocates is to make life incrementally more difficult for the already law-abiding gun owner. This. We are talking about a bunch of city liberals who pay everyone to wait on them hand-and-foot, for everything from groceries (non-car-owner, orders delivery) to personal protection (the cops)... They are trying to reduce gun ownership by making it a pain in the ass, figuring that 'they don't need those guns, and if it's hard enough they'll find another hobby'... F' em... |
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I have a question - what if I need to take my gun to a gunsmith? Will that also have to go through an FFL, since the firearm transferred hands?
Thanks! |
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I don't think so. Section 3 (3) says; Since the transfer was not made when the NICS check was denied, it still belongs to the original owner and the dealer simply hands it back. Since I-594 allows the gun to be removed from the dealership while the NICS is being performed, it most likely is not entered into the bound book until the transfer is ready to happen. Not sure how well this goes along with federal law though. I think most FFL's will not facilitate a private sale for a reasonable price (</= $20). Randy View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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We are unsure how any of this will pan out. We considered this scenario today: Buddy comes in with his friend and wants to loan him his hunting rifle. Go through the 4473 process….friend comes up denied. Buddy now wants his gun back and fills out the 4473. He is denied. Buddy goes ape shit wanting his gun back..whelp…that would be a no go. He claims he will send someone else in to complete the transfer. No can do. Straw purchase. Buddy is assed out of his goods. I don't think so. Section 3 (3) says; (d) If the results of the background check indicate that the purchaser or transferee is ineligible to possess a firearm, then the licensed dealer shall return the firearm to the seller or transferor. Since the transfer was not made when the NICS check was denied, it still belongs to the original owner and the dealer simply hands it back. Since I-594 allows the gun to be removed from the dealership while the NICS is being performed, it most likely is not entered into the bound book until the transfer is ready to happen. Not sure how well this goes along with federal law though. I think most FFL's will not facilitate a private sale for a reasonable price (</= $20). Randy Negative on the red part. Federal law says that if you give the FFL the firearm for "gunsmithing/repair", then the FFL doesn't have to complete a 4473 and a NICS check to return it to the original owner. BUT, in this case, the owner isn't giving the FFL the firearm for "gunsmithing/repair", he is doing it to transfer it to another individual. The federal exemption for gunsmithing/repair doesn't apply here. In order for the original owner to get the firearm back due to a denied transaction (which typically takes days to get, it usually pops as a "delay" first), they'll have to complete a 4473 and a NICS check. Basically it is like a pawn redemption or consignment return at this point. So imagine a "worst case scenario" with a handgun: Seller comes in with a buyer, neither have a CPL. FFL logs in the firearm, buyer fills out 4473 and State Application to Transfer pistol (ATP) and the FFL sends the ATP form to the LE agency with jurisdiction. 10 business day wait begins, and this LE agency is notorious for taking ALL 10 business days. Business day 11 arrives and the LE agency tells the FFL "Deny." Now the seller has to come back (FFL still has the gun, it can't leave the premises without a 4473 now, despite what I-594 says since it conflicts with federal law, and the more restrictive law applies), and he has to complete the 4473 and ATP and wait for the LE agency to run the background check (remember, he doesn't have a CPL either.) As it happens, it is the same agency, so 11 business days later, they tell the FFL this person is also a "Deny." What does the FFL do now? He can't legally give the original owner back his firearm. The firearm is now in limbo, stuck at the FFL until the now-denied seller can find a buyer, assuming he doesn't get into trouble with the law first and they confiscate the thing (based on the Deny response.) The FFL has also now had the gun in the safe for over 30 days (counting weekends), and who knows how many more. Plus he has a really pissed off seller that wants his gun back. I've only had 3 "Deny" responses in over 6 years, and two fought the "Deny" through the appeals process, but it took about 8 months to get it cleared up. The third one had a WA CPL that was issued not long before trying to buy the handgun. She didn't appeal the denial. Strange that she had a CPL though..... As for your last part, my rate for "private sales" is going to be identical to my rate for current transfers for online purchases. There is no difference in the amount of work involved, so I don't know why an FFL would be expected to charge less for one type of transfer over another (for Title I firearms that is.) |
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Quoted: Hell, call a buddy on your way up to elk camp and tell him you forgot to grab your rifles, "please stop by the house and grab them from the wife on your way up". Felony. For both parties. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: And the "crime count" is PER gun CONSECUTIVELY. So if you loan 2 guns to a buddy, that's a felony right there! Absolute BULLSH*T. The only reason this passed is that non-gun people (and even many lazy gun people) didn't actually READ the initiative and what it says/does. They just heard "universal background checks?" Sounds good! Rob Hell, call a buddy on your way up to elk camp and tell him you forgot to grab your rifles, "please stop by the house and grab them from the wife on your way up". Felony. For both parties. |
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Quoted:
Negative on the red part. Federal law says that if you give the FFL the firearm for "gunsmithing/repair", then the FFL doesn't have to complete a 4473 and a NICS check to return it to the original owner. BUT, in this case, the owner isn't giving the FFL the firearm for "gunsmithing/repair", he is doing it to transfer it to another individual. The federal exemption for gunsmithing/repair doesn't apply here. In order for the original owner to get the firearm back due to a denied transaction (which typically takes days to get, it usually pops as a "delay" first), they'll have to complete a 4473 and a NICS check. Basically it is like a pawn redemption or consignment return at this point. So imagine a "worst case scenario" with a handgun: Seller comes in with a buyer, neither have a CPL. FFL logs in the firearm, buyer fills out 4473 and State Application to Transfer pistol (ATP) and the FFL sends the ATP form to the LE agency with jurisdiction. 10 business day wait begins, and this LE agency is notorious for taking ALL 10 business days. Business day 11 arrives and the LE agency tells the FFL "Deny." Now the seller has to come back (FFL still has the gun, it can't leave the premises without a 4473 now, despite what I-594 says since it conflicts with federal law, and the more restrictive law applies), and he has to complete the 4473 and ATP and wait for the LE agency to run the background check (remember, he doesn't have a CPL either.) As it happens, it is the same agency, so 11 business days later, they tell the FFL this person is also a "Deny." What does the FFL do now? He can't legally give the original owner back his firearm. The firearm is now in limbo, stuck at the FFL until the now-denied seller can find a buyer, assuming he doesn't get into trouble with the law first and they confiscate the thing (based on the Deny response.) The FFL has also now had the gun in the safe for over 30 days (counting weekends), and who knows how many more. Plus he has a really pissed off seller that wants his gun back. I've only had 3 "Deny" responses in over 6 years, and two fought the "Deny" through the appeals process, but it took about 8 months to get it cleared up. The third one had a WA CPL that was issued not long before trying to buy the handgun. She didn't appeal the denial. Strange that she had a CPL though..... As for your last part, my rate for "private sales" is going to be identical to my rate for current transfers for online purchases. There is no difference in the amount of work involved, so I don't know why an FFL would be expected to charge less for one type of transfer over another (for Title I firearms that is.) View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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We are unsure how any of this will pan out. We considered this scenario today: Buddy comes in with his friend and wants to loan him his hunting rifle. Go through the 4473 process….friend comes up denied. Buddy now wants his gun back and fills out the 4473. He is denied. Buddy goes ape shit wanting his gun back..whelp…that would be a no go. He claims he will send someone else in to complete the transfer. No can do. Straw purchase. Buddy is assed out of his goods. I don't think so. Section 3 (3) says; (d) If the results of the background check indicate that the purchaser or transferee is ineligible to possess a firearm, then the licensed dealer shall return the firearm to the seller or transferor. Since the transfer was not made when the NICS check was denied, it still belongs to the original owner and the dealer simply hands it back. Since I-594 allows the gun to be removed from the dealership while the NICS is being performed, it most likely is not entered into the bound book until the transfer is ready to happen. Not sure how well this goes along with federal law. I think most FFL's will not facilitate a private sale for a reasonable price (</= $20). Randy Negative on the red part. Federal law says that if you give the FFL the firearm for "gunsmithing/repair", then the FFL doesn't have to complete a 4473 and a NICS check to return it to the original owner. BUT, in this case, the owner isn't giving the FFL the firearm for "gunsmithing/repair", he is doing it to transfer it to another individual. The federal exemption for gunsmithing/repair doesn't apply here. In order for the original owner to get the firearm back due to a denied transaction (which typically takes days to get, it usually pops as a "delay" first), they'll have to complete a 4473 and a NICS check. Basically it is like a pawn redemption or consignment return at this point. So imagine a "worst case scenario" with a handgun: Seller comes in with a buyer, neither have a CPL. FFL logs in the firearm, buyer fills out 4473 and State Application to Transfer pistol (ATP) and the FFL sends the ATP form to the LE agency with jurisdiction. 10 business day wait begins, and this LE agency is notorious for taking ALL 10 business days. Business day 11 arrives and the LE agency tells the FFL "Deny." Now the seller has to come back (FFL still has the gun, it can't leave the premises without a 4473 now, despite what I-594 says since it conflicts with federal law, and the more restrictive law applies), and he has to complete the 4473 and ATP and wait for the LE agency to run the background check (remember, he doesn't have a CPL either.) As it happens, it is the same agency, so 11 business days later, they tell the FFL this person is also a "Deny." What does the FFL do now? He can't legally give the original owner back his firearm. The firearm is now in limbo, stuck at the FFL until the now-denied seller can find a buyer, assuming he doesn't get into trouble with the law first and they confiscate the thing (based on the Deny response.) The FFL has also now had the gun in the safe for over 30 days (counting weekends), and who knows how many more. Plus he has a really pissed off seller that wants his gun back. I've only had 3 "Deny" responses in over 6 years, and two fought the "Deny" through the appeals process, but it took about 8 months to get it cleared up. The third one had a WA CPL that was issued not long before trying to buy the handgun. She didn't appeal the denial. Strange that she had a CPL though..... As for your last part, my rate for "private sales" is going to be identical to my rate for current transfers for online purchases. There is no difference in the amount of work involved, so I don't know why an FFL would be expected to charge less for one type of transfer over another (for Title I firearms that is.) Correct! |
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I have too ask, where in the 2nd amendment does it say that the right to keep & bear arms is predicated on ownership? Seems to me that such a prerequisite does not exist, & as such, this law clearly violates this guaranteed individual right.
If someone shoots into my home & hits me, is my wife not entitled to take up & bear arms that I may own for defense if I am incapacitated or KIA? I'm pretty sure that's not what the framer's envisioned. |
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WAC will be doing $10 person to person transfers for members at the shows.
https://washingtonarmscollectors.org/2014/11/wac-offers-10-private-party-transfers-594/ Inexpensive TransfersThe Washington Arms Collectors announces $10 private party firearm transfers beginning at the Monroe show on December 6, 7. In an effort to provide the lowest cost and most accessible private transfers through a Federally Licensed Firearm dealer (FFL), as required by Initiative 594, the WAC has made arrangements that will allow WAC members to buy and sell firearms for this nominal fee at all future events. Multiple Transfers, Just One FeeNotably, the WAC-designated dealer will, for a single $10 fee conduct a background check for multiple firearm purchases at the shows, thus further reducing the cost of private firearm purchases. We expect that this arrangement will maintain a healthy market for private sellers and buyers of used and collector firearms. No Sales or Use TaxPrivate parties buying and selling should also be aware that according to both I-594 and the official state Voter’s Pamphlet, "Licensed firearms dealers would not be required to collect sales or use tax when facilitating a private sale or transfer of a firearm (p. 21 "Voters’ Pamphlet”). This should further reassure private sellers and FFL dealers who might otherwise be concerned about the collection and reporting of taxes. As in the past, the sale and purchase of firearms at WAC events is restricted to our 20,000 members–another good reason to join now for 2014-2015. Not yet a member?–join in-person at the shows, or at the WAC office in Renton, 935 Powell Ave. SW, Suite 120, 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. A $40 annual WAC membership allows free access to 18 shows each year, a monthly magazine that includes a firearm marketplace of classified ads, regular updates on firearm politics, and the ability to conduct legal private transfers in a safe environment at the lowest possible cost. View Quote |
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Quoted:
So imagine a "worst case scenario" with a handgun: Seller comes in with a buyer, neither have a CPL. FFL logs in the firearm, buyer fills out 4473 and State Application to Transfer pistol (ATP) and the FFL sends the ATP form to the LE agency with jurisdiction. 10 business day wait begins, and this LE agency is notorious for taking ALL 10 business days. Business day 11 arrives and the LE agency tells the FFL "Deny." Now the seller has to come back (FFL still has the gun, it can't leave the premises without a 4473 now, despite what I-594 says since it conflicts with federal law, and the more restrictive law applies), and he has to complete the 4473 and ATP and wait for the LE agency to run the background check (remember, he doesn't have a CPL either.) As it happens, it is the same agency, so 11 business days later, they tell the FFL this person is also a "Deny." What does the FFL do now? He can't legally give the original owner back his firearm. The firearm is now in limbo, stuck at the FFL until the now-denied seller can find a buyer, assuming he doesn't get into trouble with the law first and they confiscate the thing (based on the Deny response.) The FFL has also now had the gun in the safe for over 30 days (counting weekends), and who knows how many more. Plus he has a really pissed off seller that wants his gun back. I've only had 3 "Deny" responses in over 6 years, and two fought the "Deny" through the appeals process, but it took about 8 months to get it cleared up. The third one had a WA CPL that was issued not long before trying to buy the handgun. She didn't appeal the denial. Strange that she had a CPL though..... As for your last part, my rate for "private sales" is going to be identical to my rate for current transfers for online purchases. There is no difference in the amount of work involved, so I don't know why an FFL would be expected to charge less for one type of transfer over another (for Title I firearms that is.) View Quote Actually the ATF clarified the process for private transfers last year. You don't enter it into your bound book until the transfer takes place (and you must put the words "private transfer" in block 30c) and if there is a delay, the seller can either leave it with the FFL or take it home and bring it back before the actual transfer takes place. https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/pdf-files/atf_proc._2013-1_-_private_firearms_transfers_through_ffls.pdf |
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There is one store that can kiss my ass that wanted to meet with my boss and a few other stores in the area to essentially price fix transfers... whether when someone orders something from Bud's or Gunbroker, or is selling his buddy a rifle.
I will say that I5 has not, and for the foreseeable future will not, raise it's transfer rates above the current $25... and we're talking about having a "2nd Amendment" day each month, but the owner hasn't decided for sure yet. |
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Actually the ATF clarified the process for private transfers last year. You don't enter it into your bound book until the transfer takes place (and you must put the words "private transfer" in block 30c) and if there is a delay, the seller can either leave it with the FFL or take it home and bring it back before the actual transfer takes place. https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/pdf-files/atf_proc._2013-1_-_private_firearms_transfers_through_ffls.pdf View Quote Thanks! I missed that memo, but I do remember the initial guidance. In any case, I plan to have a separate bound book for private transfers, and the 4473s will be filed separately too. But good to know the ATF has outlined a specific process. |
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It's unenforceable in the terms in which most 'every day' people think about it: the cops can't bust you for an un-checked 'private sale' unless they are there to see you do it... Since we do not have a state or national gun-registry (THANK GOD), they have no way of knowing WHO was the last legal-owner of a gun that hasn't been 'transferred' in compliance with 594.... It is actually easier to get F'ed by 594 for swapping guns while plinking, than to get busted for what it ostensibly is supposed to stop. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Everyone keeps saying this. How is it unenforceable? If you are shooting in the woods with a buddy and a ranger/LE come up behind you and sees you passing a rifle back and forth you can bet your ass it would be enforced. Or what if said officer comes up and sees you have not only an AR you're shooting but a (not so well) concealed pistol as well and decides to check IDs, CPLs, etc. You have a brain fart and hand your buddy your rifle while you get out your ID/CPL? Boom, enforceable. Will there be discretion used? That remains to be seen. I must be missing something. It's unenforceable in the terms in which most 'every day' people think about it: the cops can't bust you for an un-checked 'private sale' unless they are there to see you do it... Since we do not have a state or national gun-registry (THANK GOD), they have no way of knowing WHO was the last legal-owner of a gun that hasn't been 'transferred' in compliance with 594.... It is actually easier to get F'ed by 594 for swapping guns while plinking, than to get busted for what it ostensibly is supposed to stop. We do have a state handgun registry that attaches a serial number to a name. This is my big question. Will the state expand this registry to include all firearms and require a form for every firearm owned? Something of that order would be the only way it would be enforceable. |
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Quoted: There is one store that can kiss my ass that wanted to meet with my boss and a few other stores in the area to essentially price fix transfers... whether when someone orders something from Bud's or Gunbroker, or is selling his buddy a rifle. I will say that I5 has not, and for the foreseeable future will not, raise it's transfer rates above the current $25... and we're talking about having a "2nd Amendment" day each month, but the owner hasn't decided for sure yet. View Quote Not like there's a big list of bosses who would want to do that. |
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Quoted: There is one store that can kiss my ass that wanted to meet with my boss and a few other stores in the area to essentially price fix transfers... whether when someone orders something from Bud's or Gunbroker, or is selling his buddy a rifle. I will say that I5 has not, and for the foreseeable future will not, raise it's transfer rates above the current $25... and we're talking about having a "2nd Amendment" day each month, but the owner hasn't decided for sure yet. View Quote |
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Quoted: There is one store that can kiss my ass that wanted to meet with my boss and a few other stores in the area to essentially price fix transfers... whether when someone orders something from Bud's or Gunbroker, or is selling his buddy a rifle. I will say that I5 has not, and for the foreseeable future will not, raise it's transfer rates above the current $25... and we're talking about having a "2nd Amendment" day each month, but the owner hasn't decided for sure yet. View Quote |
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There is one store that can kiss my ass that wanted to meet with my boss and a few other stores in the area to essentially price fix transfers... whether when someone orders something from Bud's or Gunbroker, or is selling his buddy a rifle. I will say that I5 has not, and for the foreseeable future will not, raise it's transfer rates above the current $25... and we're talking about having a "2nd Amendment" day each month, but the owner hasn't decided for sure yet. View Quote That's not just unethical, it runs afoul of federal anti competition and price fixing laws. Whoever walked in and suggested that committed SEVERAL federal felonies just by opening their mouth, and tried to drag you into it. Burn them. Now. They need to go down hard. |
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Because I work for a competitor I don't want to give a name because that could make it look like I'm just trying to get rid of some of the competition... and the whole risk of a lawsuit thing.
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Well,.... if anyone wants to buy or sell with me, and has a .mil ID card, outdoor rec on North Fort Lewis does transfers for $30 and no sales tax. Had my AUG shipped to them for the transfer.
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