"Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;"


So the way I am reading this, this would include ALL of any establishment that sells alcohol for consumption, including restaurants, hotels, resorts, etc.

Not at all; that's absolutely incorrect.

Dt...

Lounges

Only their bar area of a resturant, hotel or resort.

This. Pretty sure it's been stated like this for years. You can go to Applebee's for dinner, you just can't sit at the bar.

Why do people complicate things...

Not a change. Has been that way for a while. If the building, place, trailer or what ever makes more than 50% of income from the sale of alcohol for consumption on or near the premises. It is restricted by law to enter with a weapon.

In some States this is true, but not in Florida.  The percentage of sales from alcohol has nothing to do with the prohibition.

Personally, the litmus test I use is "smoking."  If smoking is allowed then the bar is a "stand alone bar" as defined in F.S. 386.203. In a stand alone bar 90% of sale are derived from alcohol. F.S. 561.695 allows stand alone bars to permit smoking.

No legal advice in what I just said, just my personal rule of thumb.

In other words, if smoking is prohibited then your are gtg as long as you don't sit in the portion of the establishment, where alcohol is "dispensed."

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=stand%20alone%20bar&URL=0300-0399/0386/Sections/0386.203.html

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=stand+alone+bar&URL=0500-0599/0561/Sections/0561.695.html

Read it again - "(12)(a) A license issued under this section does not authorize any person to openly carry a handgun or carry a concealed weapon or firearm into:

12. Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;"

I would say that "primarily devoted" means more than 50% of their revenue comes from selling alcohol.  Now, how we as citizens are supposed to know if the local sports bar is making 51% of their money on burgers and wings is beyond me.  I don't go to bars so those are easy for me to avoid, and I look at everything else as far game...concealed is concealed.

I am going to a legal seminar at Talon Range this Saturday, hopefully it's not just a sales pitch and someone will be able to confirm.

Oh, for fucks sake. Ya'll sound like some nervous bitches.

There are many grey area in Fl. ccw law. Did you read and understand the 790's? They are full of grey areas.

And how is the owner supposed to know if he sells 51% food?

If it's a dive with stripper polls yer pretty much gonna need to leave cause the hotdog is a year old anyway.

If it's Outback and has a small bar and is popular for food yer probably not doing anything wrong to eat and have one beer.

You can tell a restaurant that has a bar by looking and by looking at the clientele.

You should be able to make wise decisions and conduct yerself accordingly.

For fuck's sake, If I can do it, you can do it.

The portion that is primarily dedicated to such purpose.

The KEY WORD here is PORTION.

IE: you go to Applebees, you can't sit at the bar. Booths are good all day long.

In fact, you can sit at a booth and get plastered while wearing a gun... as long as you don't sit at the bar and drink a Pepsi while carrying a gun.

If you go to a night club that ONLY serves alcohol, I'd say you're probably fucked. So go to a sports bar (that sells food and booze), don't sit at the bar, carry your gun and don't worry about it.

We need to push for a change that allows for carry in bars and limits the

person to .08 BAC like driving. Orlando proved a need for this.

What if I go to World of Beer and sit out back, just eating the hot pretzels and yummy cheese dip? The place is clearly oriented primarily towards the sale of alcohol but, I didn't sit at the bar or have any drinks while I was there.

The one closest to me (which happens to be in the area I work) has an indoor bar with tables set all around, then an outdoor bar that goes around the front corner and down the front/side of the building, with three or four tables about 15 feet from the end of the bar on both sides.

If you were at one of those tables, it might be pushing your luck depending on who you ask, but I'd personally be okay with you being there. WOB might just be off limits just based on how small their buildings are and how it's laid out.

Your local one might be different than mine, though.

That was my understanding too, and I remember Massad Ayoob said the same thing about restaurant table vs. bar area.  I was just concerned that the statutes had changed.  A coworker of mine is convinced you cannot carry in restaurants that serve alcohol....

Your co-worker is a dingus.

There is only one thing that could have stopped the Orlando shooter, a good guy with a gun inside the establishment!!!  Listen up Florida politicos, the law needs to be changed from a location restriction to a blood alcohol limit.

People need to read the Gutmacher book.

Am I the only one that carries in a NPE?  Concealed means concealed.  Even if it's just an LCP stuffed in a pocket, unless there is a metal detector at the entrance, you can bet the farm on it I'm armed.

Have we all lost sight of the "Shall not be infringed." part.  I'm not dissing anyone for following the rules, that's your choice, but we as free men (and women) have the right to personal protection.

Agreed!

You can go into any restaurant that sells alcohol as long as you do not sit at the bar.

The portion of the establishment which has the bar in it is considered to be the part of the establishment where you cannot be. Most restaurants are laid out in such a manner that there is a clear separation between the "bar area" and the eating area. You are not permitted to even walk through the part of the establishment where the bar is. All table and booths surrounding the bar are off limits.

As for World of Beer...

It is a bar.

There business is selling alcohol.

Sitting as far away from the beer tap as possible and eating pretzels will not fly.

You are correct, the key word is PORTION. As in the area surrounding the bar. You are not allowed at or near the bar so the booths and tables surrounding it are off limits. If you take a good look at the restaurant you will notice it is designed in such a way to make it very clear what is meant to be the bar portion and what is meant to be the eating portion. Even if the bar is in the center of the establishment it will be clearly separated.

Were exactly is this word "bar" (that you use repeatedly) found in the Florida statutes?

I'm confused.  I looked in 790.06 and can't find it.

Well, this is an interesting debate about a law that NO CRIMINAL obeys. WTH? Shall Not Be Infringed.  Stupid can't be fixed and no sign ever stopped anyone from speeding, parking in a handicap zone or driving while drunk.

Laws are for law abiding people. We do not have to worry about law abiding people because they have sense enough to do what is right w/o being told by a sign or law. It's about the criminal who don't go to prison, and if they are sent, bho lets them out due to skin pigmentation stats.

Prosecute those that break the laws, and when they finally go to prison (only after being convicted for 1 out of 5 felonies thay are actually arrested and prosecuted for) keep them there for their full sentence. What's so difficult to understand? Do the crime, get caught and prosecuted, take the punishment.

What does it matter? My use of a layman's term doesn't change what the law says. What if the law said, "into any bar area of an establishment". What would the bar area be defined as? Maybe it would be defined as the portion of the establishment primarily devoted to the consumption of alcohol on the premisis.

It matters because your use of layman's terms and your definition/summation, distorted the statute.  The statute says "dispense" not "consume."

12. Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

i.e. the portion primarily devoted to dispensing...

Can we just agree that it is a grey area?

No we will not agree. The word bar does not distort the Statute, it actually clarifies it.

You should back you blue highlighted section back to include "licensed to". When you include those words you chose to leave out it reads, "licensed to dispense". Continuing on it says, "for the consumption on the premises". When you link that together it means the bar and the bar area. But don't take my word for it, I am just going off of interpretations provided to me by Mr. Jon H. Gutmacher Esq. and the State Attorney for the 18th Judicial Circuit, Mr. Phil Archer.

Mr. Gutmacher is very clear in the sixth edition of his book, on page 68, when he writes that you go anywhere in the restaurant but you cannot go to the bar and you cannot even walk through the bar area. Maybe you should correct him on his laymen's term and how it distorts the Statute. I will side with Mr. Gutmacher's interpretation of the law. Regardless of his feelings on the matter, Mr. Archer has the same interpretation. Since Mr. Archer's office is the one that would be prosecuting any case brought forward where I am at, I think I will take his word for what it means until he says otherwise. Now, if you want to further debate the matter you can contact the aforementioned gentlemen since that is where I got my clarification on the subject.

I have Z's to catch... out.

The "bar area" is a pretty good real world language descriptor for the legally prohibited portion of the restaurant, Gutmacher uses it for the area you need to avoid while armed, and most folks understand it pretty well.

There has been no change to the statute and if one avoids the bar area while carrying they're in compliance.

The statutes don't even provide and exemption to use the bathroom if one must transit the legally proscribed area in order to use the toilet, so I recommend either going outside to take a piss or wearing an adult diaper such as Depends in order to remain in strict compliance.

It's the smart thing to do.






Let the arguing resume.

No, I'm done.

If we can't agree that it is a grey area, then we will just have to agree to disagree.

And just so there is no confusion by other members, I am only addressing your comment that "All table and booths surrounding the bar are off limits."

Sleep tight.

Tables and booths surrounding the bar are in what is considered the "bar area".

"If you go into a restaurant, you can't go in the bar, you can't even walk through the bar area -- but you can sit at a dinner table, go to other places within the establishment not within or through the bar area".

1. "If you go into a restaurant, you can't go in the bar". Notice he did not use the term, "to the bar", he said "in the bar". He is not referring to an object, he is referring to an area.
2. "you can't even walk through the bar area". Here he has not implied anything, he has made it very clear that the "area" around the bar or in the portion of the establishment that would commonly be referred to as "the bar" is off limits.
3. "but you can sit at a dinner table, go to other places within the establishment not within or through the bar area". Once again he refers to "the bar area".

The portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages to for consumption on premises, which is devoted to such purpose is a very long, drawn out and legalize way of defining and describing "the bar" and in that definition the Statute, and Mr Gutmacher, are not referring to, describing or defining "the bar" as a specific object as defined in Webster's ictionary; they are referring to an area, as in"bar area". The tables and booths you are referring to are in the area around the bar or the bar area.

The next time you walk into a restaurant pay attention to the layout. The "bar" is within its own area, there is generally a very clear separation between the eating area and the bar area whether it is on one side of the establishment or there there is some type stub of wall around it. Also notice that the bathrooms are not on the bar side; this is not a coincidence, it is that way by design.

That's why I use Applebee's as my go-to example to explain this to people. They are my go-to late night food choice (half off appetizers is the only time their food is worth the cost IMO) and every single location I've been in has the same basic layout that separates the bar and high top table area from the booth/"eating" area.

ETA: Why is there arguing going on about this? Anyone with an IQ higher than room temperature in an ice plant knows exactly what "bar area" means in a restaurant.

Got awful quiet in here.

In any particular courtroom, 50% of the attorneys are wrong.

Even the SCOTUS only issues "opinions."  AND;

Even then some of the justices "dissent."

When someone on the "internet" knows everything there is to know about a given statute, it's pretty useless to present a differing opinion.

Sometimes the free exchange of ideas is not free.

I offered to stipulate that this was a grey area of the law.

I offered to simply agree to disagree.

Notwithstanding, the discussion digressed into a personal insult.

So yes, it has been very quiet.

You should ask the site to create a emoji with a pouting face to save you typing in the future.