When will HK come out with some new rifle designs? Its been awhile...

Don't expect anything but HK416 derivatives for a the foreseeable future.

Probably not.

Even if they do, it won't be on the civilian market

And this is the reason they are in dire financial trouble.  Colt too.  

They have been making the guns they want to make instead of the guns we want to buy.  

Additionally - they both went "all in" on a single basket of military contracts that they fooled themselves would last forever and would pay so much that they didn't need to innovate anymore.  

I agree...

I have spoken at length and spent time with HK's US and German management.  They are good people.  The problem is that HK is hamstrung by German politics and export laws more than their willingness to make something new and sell it to civilians.  Read their shareholder's annual meeting transcript(Google it, it is available in English) and it becomes crystal clear who calls the shots and what management has to maneuver around.  Look also at German politics and gun politics and HK is always the source of all of the world's problems if you believe the German left.  HK is being blamed for death in the third world for people killed by the G3 exported by the German government 40 years ago and in Mexico by something that may or may not have been a G36 or an unlicensed Mexican copy that was used to kill some kids.  How is this HK's fault?  There is no way it could be, but they are suffering the collapse of their share values due to it.  

Our own laws on imports are also an issue.  HK products have been banned from import by Bush, Sr. and Clinton (sporting applications bs).  The sales are no longer an issue, since the federal AWB expired, but the imports are a big problem.  HK is a relatively small company and they are trying to make what they can sell and we can buy, hence the new VP series of pistols (pistols aren't subject to the same restrictions in Germany for export or US import laws (except .380 and smaller centerfire with the "points" system).  

German laws make it very difficult for HK to build a US facility to make long guns since they are relatively small and can't raise capital due to political pressure on their ability to sell shares.  To grow they need to sell more here, but to sell more here they need to get out of Germany.  To get out of Germany, they have to grow to afford it.  This is the nature of the problem.  HK management would love to sell us everything they can make since that is what drives their profitability.  

Outside of hoping for A: a US (or non-EU) company buys them and moves them (possible, but since the German gov is a shareholder, it would take a huge financial settlement to move them and eliminate the jobs in Germany); or B: German politics change (not too likely); or C: they create some disruptive technology and make a ton of money (possible but less likely with their finances today). Things don't seem to be ripe for change.

Colt is a different problem entirely.  Colt needs to reorganize and move South to a right to work state.  The high costs of doing business in the Northeast are a killer for them.  That and mismanagement by hiring the wrong people who can't make the right decisions or look past the US Gov as a customer.

I agree with "most" of what you are saying about HK, except that out of their own mouths their marketing strategy is to focus on pistols for US sales rather than long guns because of "school shootings."  

http://news.yahoo.com/germany-turns-top-gunmaker-121928120--sector.html?nf=1

That unbelievably insulting statement speaks of having no concept of who their US and civilian customers actually are.  

The time for both these companies to relocate was when they were fat.   They didn't, and assumed they'd ride forever on their government contracts.  

And reality interferes.

Hmm.  I don't see a direct quote there from anyone at HK, just a story written by a biased journalist.  Is this what you're talking about:



I would give Mr. Heeschen the benefit of the doubt until there is a direct quote.  He could have just said :"Our focus for the American market is pistols" without any qualifiers.  The rest of the article was written to skewer him and make HK look shady.    His marketing manager's direct quote was: "We make a product," Lemperle said. "Others decide whether it is used to kill."

The "fat" times for HK weren't likely really that fat.  With the costs of operating under German socialism, regulation, and corporate tax rates of 70+% on profits, sky high labor costs, high material costs, and fixed price contracts, there isn't as much as you think is there.  Back in the '90's-2000's my old company had a factory in Southern Germany (outside of Ingolstadt) and it was not such a great experience.  Very high worker productivity and excellent quality workforce, but the cost was nearly quadruple the same operations in the US.  This was also for a fixed price military contract, and we sure didn't have much profit left after all the tax takings and other regulatory expenses.  We tried unsuccessfully to close the German operations, but hit so many hurdles in govt. regulation due to the loss of jobs, we finally sold at a small loss to a German company to get this pig off the books, rather than continue operating at meagre gains or paying a huge ransom "settlement" to the German government to close.  

Make no mistake, I am not a HK apologist or "fanboy".  I just know that socialism sucks.

To accept that the strategy is indeed what he says it is and attribute that statement to the journalist - being made out of whole cloth requires extraordinary gymnastics that I am just not capable of.

So given the fact that the statement of strategy turns out to be true - what reason would he have, with 300M EURO of debt hanging over his head to purposefully decline to penetrate the market with the widest possible cross section of products?  

I am a fan of HK products.  And that's why the way Heeschen has abused and mismanaged this company into the ground he gets no benefit of any doubt any more.  

Read here about what he did with the borrowed money.   He bought mansions, yachts, and multiple aircraft.  

https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/fbem/DocumentDisplayServlet?documentId=OngETBBRXLhOX0y7RFzSFg==&system=prod

We can disagree, but I maintain that someone who is this much of a smacked ass definitely made the statement as it is plainly written that he did.  Regardless, his strategy shows that he doesn't understand his customers and has chosen to sell them what he wants them to have, rather than what they want to buy.    

When it comes to the civil market I think their only problem is cost. They just ask far too much. I'm sure the 416 is nice, but at $3,000+ it is rather over priced. Bring it down to $1800-2000 and they'd probably move some. They should bring the UMP-45 to US factories so they can make a proper UMP clone with a carbine & pistol version. Sell it for $1000. There aren't really any .45 caliber carbines out there, so it would probably fit a nice niche. Bring the 9mm one to.

They've been selling whatever they can for years though. The MR223 came out in the early 2000s on the civi market. Once they had a factory setup here, they started selling a new version for the US. I don't think Americans would have bought an imported US ban + German export compliant rifle. If I recall, the MR223 can't attach to regular AR lowers due to German export laws. Can you imagine the flack they'd get if the sold such a rifle?

As for the military side they seem to be doing well. They have new belt feds, a grenade launcher that is selling well, the 416/417 which is also selling well, the MP7, ect. With the 416/417 selling I don't seem them bringing a new rifle out anytime soon.

I agree with you for the most part.   I shot a demo UMP gun.   Although it was a turd compared to the MP5 alongside it, I'd definitely buy one in 9mm.  

Their reliance on an aging design... on what exists right now...    will be the death of them.  

It's a "today" strategy, when what they need is a "next five years" strategy alongside it.  

I see three reasons why HK is far behind the curve, even if they are selling 416/417 units at the moment.  

A thread on HKPRO outlined some of the problems they have with the HK guns.  For instance, they are shipped without many of the components installed because of issues with the bizarre export regulations in Germany.   When the guns get here they literally have to be put together, like a kit.  

1 - Sig is their principal competitor with the MCX at this point.  It's been said that some in JSOC are already starting to get some of them.  

2 - Sig has a factory in the USA, located in a state where they are relatively unencumbered by socialist policies.  

3 - The MCX exists as proof that Sig is also innovating, which is required to play at that level.  

I'm not at all saying that the MCX is a better gun, and it's fair to point out Sig's production issues alongside HK's incomplete rifles.  

What I am pointing out overall is that Sig almost certainly has their next gun well into the planning phase, where HK almost certainly doesn't.  

I agree on a few of your points. I think a large issue for HK is that they hit a grand-slam with the MP5. 51 years it has been the king of 9mm SMGs. Sig JUST NOW is challenging it with the MCX... They need to recapture what made them great back in the early years and get back to basics.

HK should just sell itself to its US subsidiary and it would be able to make whatever it wants and profit.

It would, but the problem is, nobody would ever buy it even at a break-even-price of their debt alone.  

The company is simply not worth 300 Million Euros.