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Posted: 2/2/2017 2:43:08 AM EDT
[#1]
Yikes.
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Posted: 2/2/2017 2:55:42 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I've been looking for the answer to this question for days, thought someone here might know. The ATF's current statement is that if I build an AR pistol with a SIG brace and shoulder it, I have "redesigned" it into an SBR and am therefore in possession of an unregistered NFA item, correct? What if I lend the same gun to a buddy at the range. Before I can stop him he shoulders it and fires. Am *I* still now the owner of an unregistered SBR and subject to federal charges because of something he did? What if I loan it to a buddy for the day and he takes it to the range and maybe or maybe not shoulders it and doesn't tell me. What do I do? Don't put yourself in that position, why would you loan a gun out that could get you in a shit storm? If you really wanted to let someone else shoot/borrow your gun with a brace, just remove it, they won't shoulder a bare reciever extension I wouldn't think. |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 3:14:57 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't put yourself in that position, why would you loan a gun out that could get you in a shit storm? If you really wanted to let someone else shoot/borrow your gun with a brace, just remove it, they won't shoulder a bare reciever extension I wouldn't think. I wouldn't do that, it's more of a thought exercise. I can see the situation of me having fun with it at the range, a shooting buddy (maybe someone I know through USPSA) asks if he can try it, and next thing I know I'm lurching at him in slow motion yelling "Nooooooo!". But it's too late. I'm now a felon? |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 3:18:51 AM EDT
[#4]
Last I checked an opinion isn't a law. No one has yet to show me a black and white law saying it's illegal.
Unless it's changed to a law now? Been awhike since Ive heard anyone talk about it. |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 3:19:08 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
I've been looking for the answer to this question for days, thought someone here might know. The ATF's current statement is that if I build an AR pistol with a SIG brace and shoulder it, I have "redesigned" it into an SBR and am therefore in possession of an unregistered NFA item, correct? What if I lend the same gun to a buddy at the range. Before I can stop him he shoulders it and fires. Am *I* still now the owner of an unregistered SBR and subject to federal charges because of something he did? What if I loan it to a buddy for the day and he takes it to the range and maybe or maybe not shoulders it and doesn't tell me. What do I do? Don't let buddies use things that the ATF is iffy on and who you can't trust to not do things you don't want them to do. End of discussion. |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 3:23:28 AM EDT
[#6]
I'd write a letter and ask the man
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Posted: 2/2/2017 4:23:12 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd write a letter and ask the man |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 5:33:05 AM EDT
[#8]
Don't worry so much about situations and presumed intent or actions of another beyond your control. You are going to put yourself in an early grave with "what if" scenarios like this.
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Posted: 2/2/2017 6:06:41 AM EDT
[#9]
If you build an ad pistol with a Sig brace for the purposes of avoiding a tax stamp that is illegal. If you shoot an ar pistol in a way that it was not designed to shoot that is not illegal.
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Posted: 2/2/2017 6:51:50 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd write a letter and ask the man Yeah, because so many people sending their own letters worked out so well in the past regarding the sig brace 
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Posted: 2/2/2017 7:15:52 AM EDT
[#11]
Just FFS don't write a letter asking about it, please.
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Posted: 2/2/2017 8:38:35 AM EDT
[#12]
so, what is the current "decision"? Rumors abound on the internet and I've not kept up. I have a AR with SIG Brace but it doesn't visit public ranges...so I am Not particularly worried how anyone shoots it as its on my private
range...BUT, I am curious as both sides of the argument are rampant. I also have the letter from the ATF that came with the SIG Brace stating shouldering it is fine...BUT. I saw a LGS sign recently that said attaching this sig brace to this sig pistol and shouldering it to shoot is Illegal according to the ATFE.. 
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Posted: 2/2/2017 7:41:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Fwiw, you cannot loan NFA items to a friend if the NFA items leave your dominion and control.
Loaning an SBR or suppressor, for examples, to a bud who then drives off is a no go, because as he drives off you loose dominion and control. JPK |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 7:45:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Last I checked an opinion isn't a law. No one has yet to show me a black and white law saying it's illegal. Unless it's changed to a law now? Been awhike since Ive heard anyone talk about it. Ignoring issued opinions lead to prosecutions. $50k+ and a year or two in jail or out on bail and you may go to prison, or may not. JPK |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 3:32:46 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Last I checked an opinion isn't a law. No one has yet to show me a black and white law saying it's illegal. Unless it's changed to a law now? Been awhike since Ive heard anyone talk about it. This. Shouldering brace is legal, ATF is full of shit. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 4:22:19 AM EDT
[#16]
Just shoulder it, no one cares except a small group of gun nerds.
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Posted: 2/4/2017 7:02:43 AM EDT
[#17]
President Trump please make short barrel rifles legal and for them to have the same status as 16in or longer rifles do. This would eliminate several useless regulations that has zero impact on weapons used in crime.
Thank you. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 7:51:37 AM EDT
[#18]
Please list everyone who has been prosecuted and charged with something because they shouldered.
It is not illegal to shoulder. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 8:00:45 AM EDT
[#19]
What if you shoulder a Sig brace without shooting it. Is that a crime? What if you shoot it and the recoil pushes it into your shoulder? What if you're wearing a coat and it looks like you shouldered it, even if you didn't? What if it touches your shoulder but you don't push it into your shoulder?
The only logical answer is that the "law" is bullshit. If the brace is legal than you have a legal gun, and the gun cannot be made illegal by how you use it. Law enforcement would have to get in a really messed up situation to ever arrest someone for this, and if they did a good lawyer should destroy their case. So the law basically is that you can't advertise it as a shoulder mount or create videos telling people to shoulder it. It's like fight club I guess--you don't talk a out fight club. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 8:11:49 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
President Trump please make short barrel rifles legal and for them to have the same status as 16in or longer rifles do. This would eliminate several useless regulations that has zero impact on weapons used in crime. Thank you. Yes. The suppressor and short barreled rifles should both be removed from NFA simultaneously as they go together. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 12:09:26 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just shoulder it, no one cares except a small group of gun nerds. I was at the range last weekend. It's a public range but sits on federal land outside a military post so they follow military guidelines. Basically nothing Full auto, 1 shot per second I'm wrapping up - three SBRs, 5 suppressors and a SBS. This middle aged couple was sitting at a bench behind me waiting for my spot. My first mistake was trying to be friendly and commenting on his soft tactical rifle cases. The wife gets uppity saying they left the real toys at home, they weren't allowed to shoot here. "Oh, select fire guns are fun, sucks you can't shoot them here." Husband retorts that it's an AR pistol with a sig brace.  Apparently the ROs won't let you shoot any AR pistols.
The derp just continued from both of them; I was quite happy to be leaving. Either they were idiots (which is quite possible) or some people do care about braces |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 12:15:15 PM EDT
[#22]
What if I build a pistol with a stock on it, but I don't intend to shoulder it, would that be ok then?
The BATFE is retarded. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 12:41:58 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What if I build a pistol with a stock on it, but I don't intend to shoulder it, would that be ok then? The BATFE is retarded. Constructive intent is the most dangerous piece of derp I've ever heard of in my life. |
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Posted: 2/4/2017 1:54:11 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no one cares except a small group of gun nerds. |
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Posted: 2/5/2017 1:15:58 AM EDT
[#25]
At what gun ranges do people actually see the atf ?
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Posted: 2/5/2017 11:55:32 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, because so many people sending their own letters worked out so well in the past regarding the sig brace |
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Posted: 2/5/2017 3:05:47 PM EDT
[#27]
people asking these types of questions are what forces the ATF to write stupid opinions that further dick up what's left of the 2A
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Posted: 2/5/2017 3:08:24 PM EDT
[#28]
The whole brace craze made me question having paid and waited for a papered SBR. But only for about 2 or 3 seconds.
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Posted: 2/5/2017 4:27:09 PM EDT
[#29]
We are our own worst enemies. When the BATFE opinion letter came out regarding braces and intent surfaced, the gun community as a whole should have just responded with "that's nice dear" and carried on.
This dead horse has gone full retard. |
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Posted: 2/5/2017 10:09:06 PM EDT
[#30]
The ATF will perform forensics to pull any shirt fibers from the butt of the brace, as well as skin cells / DNA from the comb of the brace. The shirt worn that day will also be scrubbed for brace residue.
It's not something you want to fuck around with, ever. I've personally seen five guys get arrested and taken away by undercover ATF agents just waiting. They looked like regular guys at the range, but as soon as dude shouldered it, they swarmed him. Black vans showed up, he gone. |
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Posted: 2/5/2017 10:30:36 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ATF will perform forensics to pull any shirt fibers from the butt of the brace, as well as skin cells / DNA from the comb of the brace. The shirt worn that day will also be scrubbed for brace residue. It's not something you want to fuck around with, ever. I've personally seen five guys get arrested and taken away by undercover ATF agents just waiting. They looked like regular guys at the range, but as soon as dude shouldered it, they swarmed him. Black vans showed up, he gone. true story. op, and being that you gave him that weapon, your in it to. you know what you have to do... |
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Posted: 2/5/2017 10:37:11 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, because so many people sending their own letters worked out so well in the past regarding the sig brace Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'd write a letter and ask the man Yeah, because so many people sending their own letters worked out so well in the past regarding the sig brace I'm hoping he was being sarcastic by suggesting the letter thing. |
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Posted: 2/7/2017 1:04:19 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm hoping he was being sarcastic by suggesting the letter thing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd write a letter and ask the man Yeah, because so many people sending their own letters worked out so well in the past regarding the sig brace I'm hoping he was being sarcastic by suggesting the letter thing. |
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Posted: 2/7/2017 1:41:39 AM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 2/7/2017 8:26:15 AM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 2/9/2017 4:25:50 PM EDT
[#36]
If your friend shoulders your sig brace, you should hold him at gun point and call the police to arrest him for a felony...
Now what if you shoulder a sig brace mounted to a gun at a gun shop? Is it the equivalent of licking it as its no longer a title I gun? If I shoulder a sig brace in the forest but there is no one to see it, did I really create an SBR? BTW, write your letter, then shove it up your ass. I wish ATF charged $200 per letter instead of forms. Not sure what caused the last ruling, a bazillion letters or a bazillion idiots on you tube and internet forums shouldering it. I miss when you could do stuff on the down low. In the olden days, we would have shut up and when it came up as an issue ten years later, there would already be a bazillion of them out there and then nothing could be done. |
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Posted: 2/9/2017 8:20:07 PM EDT
[#37]
So, what if you have a brace, and a short upper and another upper with a 16" barrel on it? You can legally shoulder it with the longer barrel, right, then can't when you swap uppers?
Why does a 14.5" with muzzle brake need to be perm install then? Can't you just not shoulder it when it doesn't have your brake on it? |
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Posted: 2/9/2017 9:59:41 PM EDT
[#38]
If a tree falls and the ATF..., I mean, nobody is there to hear it, does it make a noise?
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Posted: 2/10/2017 1:52:26 PM EDT
[#39]
If stupid fucking people would stop asking these stupid fucking questions we would all be in a much better place.
Another nugget of wisdom; When something goes your way, don't ask why, and just be glad it went your way. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 4:33:42 PM EDT
[#40]
LOL some people worry about the strangest things.
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Posted: 2/11/2017 2:28:16 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If a tree falls and the ATF..., I mean, nobody is there to hear it, does it make a noise? thank you, needed the laugh |
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Posted: 3/2/2017 5:30:52 PM EDT
[#42]
You should write a letter.
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Posted: 3/2/2017 10:01:01 PM EDT
[#43]
How about you don't do AR pistols with a brace that looks like a stock?
I've got registered SBRs and am happy with them. |
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Posted: 3/3/2017 1:50:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And then having a friend would be constructive intent. LOL sig line material.. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 3:25:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What if I...... Quote HistoryQuoted:
What if I...... your Aunt had balls? then she'd be your Uncle. Quoted:
What if I...... if's and but's were christmans nuts? Quoted:
If stupid fucking people would stop asking these stupid fucking questions we would all be in a much better place. Another nugget of wisdom; When something goes your way, don't ask why, and just be glad it went your way. seriously, right? like big brother is watching everyone from outter space on the keyhole sats.....and they give a shit what you are doing out shooting beer cans and tv sets up in the forest/desert. |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 3:43:45 PM EDT
[#46]
"like big brother is watching everyone from outter space on the keyhole sats.....and they give a shit what you are doing out shooting beer cans and tv sets up in the forest/desert."
Based on what my bud who works for the NSA and used to work on FISA stuff tells me, you would be surprised what Big Brother under Obummer was listening to and watching... He won't and can't give details, but told me it made him want to puke and had him thinking about his oath to defend the Constitution. JPK |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 3:59:35 PM EDT
[#47]
Did said friend actually, literally fire the pistol with the SigBrace shouldered? Is it possible that he just placed it to his shoulder to make sure that it was not contacting his shoulder when he fired it. Moving it away from his shoulder as he pulled the trigger. We need another opinion from ATF.
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Posted: 3/6/2017 4:06:06 PM EDT
[#48]
what happens if I shoulder a sig brace on an AR pistol in a gun shop.
Does the shop then have to pay the tax, fill out the form, and sell it as an SBR? Can I hand it back to them since it is now an un-registered SBR and it would be illegal for me to transfer it to them? What if I shouldered it and they didn't see me shoulder it and then he sells it to me, did he just sell me an illegal SBR? |
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Posted: 3/6/2017 4:23:07 PM EDT
[#49]
OK, I'm fairly ignorant of all this, but what if you just shoulder your bare pistol-length receiver extension?
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Posted: 3/6/2017 6:06:44 PM EDT
[#50]
FFS, are you serious?
Has ANYONE EVER been charged because all they have done is shoulder a pistol. |
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