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Posted: 10/27/2014 6:22:52 PM EDT
About to buy my first SBR. Thinking Daniel Defense MK18 with 10.3" barrel. I know nothing about SBRs....
How is reliability? Do things need tuned/adjusted to make them function properly? Is there anything (brand/ammo/etc.) to stay away from? I heard that Sig has "adjustable" gas systems in theirs.....Does that have any rationale? If it matters, I will likely put a suppressor on it, so I would be concerned with changes with the suppressor going off/on as well. Thanks in advance for the help! |
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[#1]
If you're going to use a suppressor, I would recommend a Micro MOA Govnah switchable gas block...
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[#2]
Don't know about recent runs, but I did hear that DD was also concerned about reliability in the hands of civilians and made the gas ports on the DD Mk18 oversized so they'll work fine with lower pressure .223 ammo. This would leave them a little overgassed with 5.56 ammo, so an adjustable gas block may be a good idea.
You could also do what I did, build/buy your SBR and try it out. Mine (a 10.5" from palmetto) ran fine with all ammo I've put through it, even steel cased Russian .223 during function checks. I've played around with the buffer and spring (my own version of the A5), but otherwise it's not been messed with. Suppressed and unsupressed it runs fine, and I don't see a need for an adjustable gas block. I do have an NiB BCG which seems to help with cleaning after suppressed shooting. So long post short, don't overthink it on the front end. Get it and start using it, if you then have issues or questions come on back and people can get specific. DD makes good stuff, chances are it is going to work just fine, both mechanically and in its secondary function of putting a massive smile on your face! |
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[#3]
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[#4]
I found a h2 buffer, rtv'd and drilled charging handle plus lots of lube makes for a successful experience. And gloves.....
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[#5]
Thanks guys. It's appreciated! Great info. Since I'm a newbie I'm learning here...
How do I know if I need an adjustable gas block....Will the rifle just not function? i.e. How do I know it's a gas block issue versus buffer, etc.? And is a Govnah something that I could install myself (simple)? And what tells you where to adjust it to? Please excuse my lack of knowledge! |
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[#6]
You may need to do some tuning, but if they've bored the gas port as Andrevski mentioned then any necessary tuning to make it function reliably will be with buffer weight. I think the MK18 comes with an H buffer and it may run fine with that but if it doesn't get an H2 (~$25).
It WILL be overgassed when shooting supressed. SKS447 and AlabamaPaul mention fixes for overgassed shooting and since I've actually got a Micro MOA Govnah I think it's the best option because it works really well and I get negligible gas to the face while shooting supressed with an 11.5". ETA: How do I know it's a gas block issue versus buffer, etc.? View Quote If the rifle does not function reliably, start with the buffer as it's the cheapest and easiest thing to fix besides ammo type, but some other things to troubleshoot would be the mags. And is a Govnah something that I could install myself (simple)? And what tells you where to adjust it to? View Quote Possibly, but I'd get the barrel dimpled for the Govnah if you do get it. Install is not hard but the dimples help IMO. I'd look here for info on the gasblock: LINK |
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[#7]
Thanks guys!
Going to a heavy buffer will help with the recoil but still not to the extent that controlling the gas will. The buffer won't reduce the fouling either. Most barrels are overgassed from the manufacturer so they can run weak ammo. A good example is the DDMK18 that is ported to .070 for the military since they know the variables that the barrel will see. That barrel won't see Tula or Wolf.....For the commercial side, the same barrel is ported to ~.082. We take advantage of that big port and use it for an adverse conditions mode which some departments have found to be handy for running Simunitions without resorting to buffer/spring changes. So for a MK18, we have many customers running our block with 3 positions. Optimal-unsuppressed/suppressed/Adverse ---- .070/.049/.082 I like options. So now you can run suppressed in 3 different modes - low, med and high. For unsuppressed you now have a normal and high. Being able to run at the proper sized port allows you to run longer before running into a malfunction due to excessive fouling. The side benefits apart from a functioning perspective are: Greatly reduced gas in the face Reduced recoil Less of a requirement of having a super strong extractor spring when running optimal gas. All tuning is done in the upper so no changes to the lower configuration. If you do run into the situation that you are encountering excessive fouling and don't have time to clean, you can go up two port sizes when suppressed and up one size when unsuppressed with no tools or guess work. I run an H2 buffer to prevent bolt bounce in full auto. If you are not running full auto then I'd recommend just an H buffer. This is all assuming you are controlling the gas. Here is a video showing the MK18 running and what it will look like when you are controlling the gas and when you are not. Here is a relatively recent thread with some guys running the Govnah on their MK18's: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_543/254317_Govnah_Install_on_DD_MK18_AAR_.html Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks! |
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[#8]
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[#9]
Where can a MicroMOA Govnah be bought? Their homepage shows they have no stock.
Thanks. |
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[#10]
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[#11]
Quoted:
They'll be getting more in about three weeks. Ask to be notified when back in stock... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Where can a MicroMOA Govnah be bought? Their homepage shows they have no stock. Thanks. Thank you. |
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[#12]
10" barrels often are overgassed for reliability purposes. When you put a can on , it exacerbates the issue. I have a Noveske 10.5" that turns the barrel black from all the gas escaping out the suppressor mount and I get a face full too. It does run fine though using a H buffer but it could probably benefit from a heavier one.
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[#13]
Not if you gear your rifle correctly. A Vltor A5 will solve most cycling issues even on the weakest Tula 223. I have had no trouble with my DD MK18 or 7 inch with the A5 configuration.
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[#14]
Quoted:
Not if you gear your rifle correctly. A Vltor A5 will solve most cycling issues even on the weakest Tula 223. I have had no trouble with my DD MK18 or 7 inch with the A5 configuration. View Quote i like the A5 vltor stuff too for over gassed barrels but found the A5's not so reliable with my GI spec gas ports on a colt 14.5 m4 barrel and a FN 20" GI barrel. cold weather and limp 223 ammo was a bad combination with the H2 weight. the H0 helped but then i felt too much in the buttstock with milspec m193. although i do use the A5 in my suppressed SBR's. the longer buffer spring travel seems to smooth out the impulse. |
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[#15]
I chopped a Bushmaster CAR down to around 12". It runs fine with an H buffer, with or without the HALO on it. No other mods, unless Adco opens up the gas port by default.
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[#16]
Quoted: i like the A5 vltor stuff too for over gassed barrels but found the A5's not so reliable with my GI spec gas ports on a colt 14.5 m4 barrel and a FN 20" GI barrel. cold weather and limp 223 ammo was a bad combination with the H2 weight. the H0 helped but then i felt too much in the buttstock with milspec m193. although i do use the A5 in my suppressed SBR's. the longer buffer spring travel seems to smooth out the impulse. View Quote I tinkered with it a bit to see if I could get the A5 to work with the same port sizes I would run for a standard carbine length buffer tube and found that I had to increase the gas port sizes for the A5 system vs the standard carbine length. If I didn't do that, I had reliability issues in full auto. I have military and LE customers that don't run the A5 and I would prefer to have upper configurations that are guaranteed to work for those milspec configurations. One of these days, I may go back to determining optimal port sizes for the A5 system for various barrel length's/gas systems but frankly don't see the need when controlling the gas anyways. Controlling the gas is more effective and also reduces additional fouling which a buffer system cannot do. |
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[#17]
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[#18]
My 11.5" BCM has not had 1 malfunction either suppressed or unsuppressed with Federal XM193, XM855 or Tulammo, with a few different muzzle devices. All I have in it is an H buffer.
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[#19]
Quoted:
My 11.5" BCM has not had 1 malfunction either suppressed or unsuppressed with Federal XM193, XM855 or Tulammo, with a few different muzzle devices. All I have in it is an H buffer. View Quote I see similer answers like this all the time when someone asks about reliability/tuning/etc. Of course most factory carbines run with all kinds of ammo. That's the way they were designed. That DOES NOT mean that the gun is optimally tuned. The OP's DD Mk18 will come with a large gas port to ensure that it runs with all kinds of ammo. Odds are your BCM did too. Slap a suppressor on it and it is guaranteed to be way over gassed, which means that it is sure to run. That doesn't mean that it's tuned. Tuned would imply that the gas system is sized to the conditions and still functions reliably. An overgassed gun may run reliably but that does not mean that it is running optimally. Take that Mk18 and it'll run most any ammo. Put a suppressor on it and it will run most any ammo. Does that mean it is tuned? No Put an adjustable gas block on it so that you can control the amount of gas, and you can then tune it. Less gas in your face. Less dirt in the action. Less wear on all the moving parts. Less recoil. Faster, well placed follow up shots. Is an adj. gas block neccessary? No, but to tune the action, one will make tuning easy. |
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[#20]
Quoted:
I see similer answers like this all the time when someone asks about reliability/tuning/etc. Of course most factory carbines run with all kinds of ammo. That's the way they were designed. That DOES NOT mean that the gun is optimally tuned. The OP's DD Mk18 will come with a large gas port to ensure that it runs with all kinds of ammo. Odds are your BCM did too. Slap a suppressor on it and it is guaranteed to be way over gassed, which means that it is sure to run. That doesn't mean that it's tuned. Tuned would imply that the gas system is sized to the conditions and still functions reliably. An overgassed gun may run reliably but that does not mean that it is running optimally. Take that Mk18 and it'll run most any ammo. Put a suppressor on it and it will run most any ammo. Does that mean it is tuned? No Put an adjustable gas block on it so that you can control the amount of gas, and you can then tune it. Less gas in your face. Less dirt in the action. Less wear on all the moving parts. Less recoil. Faster, well placed follow up shots. Is an adj. gas block neccessary? No, but to tune the action, one will make tuning easy. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
My 11.5" BCM has not had 1 malfunction either suppressed or unsuppressed with Federal XM193, XM855 or Tulammo, with a few different muzzle devices. All I have in it is an H buffer. I see similer answers like this all the time when someone asks about reliability/tuning/etc. Of course most factory carbines run with all kinds of ammo. That's the way they were designed. That DOES NOT mean that the gun is optimally tuned. The OP's DD Mk18 will come with a large gas port to ensure that it runs with all kinds of ammo. Odds are your BCM did too. Slap a suppressor on it and it is guaranteed to be way over gassed, which means that it is sure to run. That doesn't mean that it's tuned. Tuned would imply that the gas system is sized to the conditions and still functions reliably. An overgassed gun may run reliably but that does not mean that it is running optimally. Take that Mk18 and it'll run most any ammo. Put a suppressor on it and it will run most any ammo. Does that mean it is tuned? No Put an adjustable gas block on it so that you can control the amount of gas, and you can then tune it. Less gas in your face. Less dirt in the action. Less wear on all the moving parts. Less recoil. Faster, well placed follow up shots. Is an adj. gas block neccessary? No, but to tune the action, one will make tuning easy. Wait. So if my SBR does run reliably, meaning zero, ZERO malfunctions (un)suppressed, with no "tuning" besides using the manufacturer suggested H buffer, then why would I need to dick around with "tuning" it for "optimal performance?" I will start worrying about "optimal whatever" when parts break or malfunctions occur. IMOYMMV |
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[#21]
Quoted: Wait. So if my SBR does run reliably, meaning zero, ZERO malfunctions (un)suppressed, with no "tuning" besides using the manufacturer suggested H buffer, then why would I need to dick around with "tuning" it for "optimal performance?" I will start worrying about "optimal whatever" when parts break or malfunctions occur. IMOYMMV View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My 11.5" BCM has not had 1 malfunction either suppressed or unsuppressed with Federal XM193, XM855 or Tulammo, with a few different muzzle devices. All I have in it is an H buffer. I see similer answers like this all the time when someone asks about reliability/tuning/etc. Of course most factory carbines run with all kinds of ammo. That's the way they were designed. That DOES NOT mean that the gun is optimally tuned. The OP's DD Mk18 will come with a large gas port to ensure that it runs with all kinds of ammo. Odds are your BCM did too. Slap a suppressor on it and it is guaranteed to be way over gassed, which means that it is sure to run. That doesn't mean that it's tuned. Tuned would imply that the gas system is sized to the conditions and still functions reliably. An overgassed gun may run reliably but that does not mean that it is running optimally. Take that Mk18 and it'll run most any ammo. Put a suppressor on it and it will run most any ammo. Does that mean it is tuned? No Put an adjustable gas block on it so that you can control the amount of gas, and you can then tune it. Less gas in your face. Less dirt in the action. Less wear on all the moving parts. Less recoil. Faster, well placed follow up shots. Is an adj. gas block neccessary? No, but to tune the action, one will make tuning easy. Wait. So if my SBR does run reliably, meaning zero, ZERO malfunctions (un)suppressed, with no "tuning" besides using the manufacturer suggested H buffer, then why would I need to dick around with "tuning" it for "optimal performance?" I will start worrying about "optimal whatever" when parts break or malfunctions occur. IMOYMMV |
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[#23]
You wouldn't NEED to do any tuning. Let's make an analogy to bolt action rifles.......you could buy a RemyChester or any other brand of factory rifle and probably be happy with it's performance. Could you do anything to that rifle to make it shoot better? (Better being any number of criteria......you could put a recoil pad on it to reduce felt recoil. Maybe a muzzle brake to reduce recoil. You could blueprint the action. On and on and on} Are any of these mods NEEDED? An AR is no different from any other firearm. Are mods needed? Probably not, but it's individual preference. Do you NEED to put a better trigger on an AR than what it came with? Many people would say no, some would say yes. Believe it or not, there are lots of guys that get into the minutiae of tuning their rifles. |
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[#24]
Don't go into this thinking an SBR will not work. Manufacturers pretty much have their barrels set up correct now. Where you see issues is when guys chop a longer barrel down. I built a 10.5" Noveske upper and had no issues. I ran an H2 buffer because I also had a suppressor for it. Just a standard lo-pro Noveske gas block. I say keep it simple and don't go drilling on anything.
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[#25]
I haven't suppressed it yet, but I threw my 10.5 on my lower with a standard carbine buffer and it runs like a top. Haven't had one malfunction and took it to a carbine class last week. Good ejection pattern and no gas in the face. I'm sure it is overgassed, but no overt signs. Pretty decent muzzle blast with M855 ammo though!
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[#26]
Quoted:
I see similer answers like this all the time when someone asks about reliability/tuning/etc. Of course most factory carbines run with all kinds of ammo. That's the way they were designed. That DOES NOT mean that the gun is optimally tuned. The OP's DD Mk18 will come with a large gas port to ensure that it runs with all kinds of ammo. Odds are your BCM did too. Slap a suppressor on it and it is guaranteed to be way over gassed, which means that it is sure to run. That doesn't mean that it's tuned. Tuned would imply that the gas system is sized to the conditions and still functions reliably. An overgassed gun may run reliably but that does not mean that it is running optimally. Take that Mk18 and it'll run most any ammo. Put a suppressor on it and it will run most any ammo. Does that mean it is tuned? No Put an adjustable gas block on it so that you can control the amount of gas, and you can then tune it. Less gas in your face. Less dirt in the action. Less wear on all the moving parts. Less recoil. Faster, well placed follow up shots. Is an adj. gas block neccessary? No, but to tune the action, one will make tuning easy. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
My 11.5" BCM has not had 1 malfunction either suppressed or unsuppressed with Federal XM193, XM855 or Tulammo, with a few different muzzle devices. All I have in it is an H buffer. I see similer answers like this all the time when someone asks about reliability/tuning/etc. Of course most factory carbines run with all kinds of ammo. That's the way they were designed. That DOES NOT mean that the gun is optimally tuned. The OP's DD Mk18 will come with a large gas port to ensure that it runs with all kinds of ammo. Odds are your BCM did too. Slap a suppressor on it and it is guaranteed to be way over gassed, which means that it is sure to run. That doesn't mean that it's tuned. Tuned would imply that the gas system is sized to the conditions and still functions reliably. An overgassed gun may run reliably but that does not mean that it is running optimally. Take that Mk18 and it'll run most any ammo. Put a suppressor on it and it will run most any ammo. Does that mean it is tuned? No Put an adjustable gas block on it so that you can control the amount of gas, and you can then tune it. Less gas in your face. Less dirt in the action. Less wear on all the moving parts. Less recoil. Faster, well placed follow up shots. Is an adj. gas block neccessary? No, but to tune the action, one will make tuning easy. i would tend to agree with you on this topic. while my LMT 10.5 gas port is set up perfect for suppressed fire, my BCM 11.5 is a bit over gases as the cases eject at about 2 o'clock and the impulse is more pronounced. going to a heavier buffer slowed the bolt down enough to get a 3-4 oclock pattern. i dont see the need to run an upper "wide open" so to speak. heavier buffers on over gassed barrels will mean the carrier speed is more correct. follow up shots are better and less stress on the system over all. as you extractor spring and claw wear down you might see some extraction issues with an over gassed system too, maybe but YMMV. |
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[#27]
Quoted:
You don't NEED to drive 100 miles on the highway in 5th gear....you could drive that distance in 1st gear the whole time. 1st gear can cover that distance just like 5th gear can so why bother with 5th gear? I think the answer to that is obvious. We've done many demo's and the difference to everyone is obvious when running a suppressor w/ regulated gas. View Quote thats a pretty darn good analogy |
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[#28]
IME, an H2 buffer, Wolff extra power buffer spring and Wolff extra power extraction spring cures 99% of SBR running issues.
YMMV |
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[#29]
I have had great success with the WAR adjustable upper from innovative arms. Not sure who stocks these now as I preordered mine before they came out. It works great.
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[#30]
11.5" (DD barrel) SBR with a JC-SCS buffer system (lightest white spring installed) and an SLR Sentry adjustable gas block, 2 clicks out from closed suppressed and 4 clicks out from closed unsuppressed and it runs like a dream. No malfunctions, no gas in the face, quite as shit (with the can on, loud as fuck without it), and literally feels like a .22 rimfire. All the parts matter but the adjustable gas block is the most important for tuning it IMO.
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