I am looking to build a SBR for my next project.  My thoughts is that it would make for a good HD weapon due to it's maneuverability in close quarters.  As I was researching all the paperwork requirements and such for NFA firearms, I got to thinking about potential issues down the road.  My thoughts went back to a podcast I listened to when Massad Ayoob was on the Survival Podcast with Jack Spirko.  In that interview, Massad said to never use reloaded rounds in your defensive weapons.  If you ever were involved in a situation where you had to shoot to protect yourself or someone else, make sure you only use factory ammo.  The reason behind this is that if you ever got put on trial for the shooting, the prosecutor will use your reloaded ammo to paint a picture of you as some wacko, sadistic, trigger happy, "domestic terrorist" (puke by the way) that created this super deadly and dangerous ammo designed to kill.  I think you get the point that Massad was trying to make.

Do you feel that if you got into a situation where you had to use your SBR, could the fact that the SBR being a NFA firearm be used against you to paint an unfair picture?  Granted, I know that an SBR is no more dangerous than a single shot .22LR.  But remember, we are talking about mostly ignorant masses being in a jury pool.

By the way, if you haven't listened to this interview, then you NEED to.  Anyone that carries should listen to it.  He goes over a lot of things to do and NOT to do in the event of a lethal force situation.

Here's a link if you want to listen to it...

I don't think it would be an issue. my issue is the effort and money putting into a NFA item and with that slim possibility of not getting it back and if you do who knows what condition it will be in. That's why I wont use a suppressor until that's standard 4473 paperwork

Yes.






















 

With respect to Ayoob, I don't believe reloaded ammo will be an issue. The shoot is good or it isn't. Same with SBRs and suppressors. Home defense scenarios is exactly their purpose. With all the advantages they bring, if you have them, why in the world would you not use them?

Mistake.  Forgot I was on interwebs.      Sorry, do whatever you think is right.

Judges/juries/lawyers can break a steel ball in a rubber room. That said, my only concern with using an NFA gun for HD is having it taken by the cops and not getting it back for YEARS. Better to use regular ol' guns for HD. If they take my M&P 9mm, I don't really care all that much. If they take my SBR thompson I'm ****ing pissed.

Ayoob is from around my area, but I've never met the guy.

That said, I can't think of a professional (industry or cop) I know from this that takes his "expertise" with a grain of salt. Not to say there aren't, just that those whos opinions I trust don't think too highly of him.

His "lawyerly" advice (attributed to him or not) has been discussed here over and over and over and the consensus is that (with some exceptions due to strict locality) he's fear mongering and a good shoot is a good shoot.


Really?

Mas Ayoob is an intelligent guy and has done a lot of good for the gun industry, shooting sports, and defensive firearms use. His opinions, though, aren't always spot on. A lot is going to boil down to where you live. A defensive shooting in Maryland or New Jersey will surely undergo a lot more scrutiny than one in Tennessee or Arizona. Many States have laws in place to protect against civil action being taken against a person who legally uses their firearm in self defense. And, most States now have Stand-Your-Ground or Castle Doctrine laws, which really simplify the process of proving whether or not a shoot was justifiable.

Another thing to remember is that Mas Ayoob makes a good bit of income serving as an expert witness in trials. If he can convince people that juries and prosecutors are going to crucify you for anything, a defendant might be that much more inclined to spring for his expert witness services, in order to avoid jail time, even if such services aren't really necessary, given the facts of the case and the laws of the jurisdiction where the shooting occurred.

No, it's not.

 

Dead is dead, but something about 9 lead pellets of 00 buck against an unarmored person at <50 yards just seems particularly devastating...

Texas or Arizona inside your house, doesn't really matter.  Many blue states outside in the front yard or street, you are screwed...

0 fucks given on this one.  I'm going to use whatever I actually have closest to me.

Imagine the irony of this scenario:

Gun-owner (collector of NFA, active gun guy, trains, builds/modifies guns) gets in a defense shooting in his house with a cheap stock gun. During discovery his internet posts about using a stock gun for a defensive shooting and using that to his advantage to stay out of jail are pulled up. The shooter is painted in the light of "gaming the system".

In reality, your AR's Geissele trigger and winchester soft points or glock's polish trigger job and ranger hollowpoints won't be as big an issue following a defensive shooting as will constantly talking about the perfect guns/gear/holsters, how to avoid legal inquiries, and self defense scenarios on the internet. Hanging out in the "Carry Issues" forum or on defensivecarry.com is way more sketchy to a jury than the polishing job on your Glock's trigger bar or the barrel length on your rifle.

Use what provides you the best means to protect your family.

Can't worry about your NFA stuff if dead.

i have a slide fire and blanks...whos going to attack when they think a machine gun has opened up on them?

"keep the change ya filthy animal"

The problem is generally they attack before a machinegun opens up on them.



Or by "attack", they could just be in your living room, rummaging through your belongings (armed or unarmed), after a forced entry, so attack can mean different things to different people. I tend to think if I'm being invaded, I should assume an attack goes with that. I will take appropriate measures, whatever that happens to be at the time. It may involve NFA weapons, or it may just involve a shotgun. Every situation is different.



Peoples' gun ownership situations can be very different also. You do have to live to continue owning guns though. I think I read that somewhere.

Massad Ayoob is FOS on this and many other issues.

You think your Federal HST or Speer Gold Dots aren't going to be painted as "flying ashtray explosive murder bullets" just because they came from Walmart?  Bullshit. If your local DA decides to fuck you over, the brand of your ammunition will mean diddly squat.

Keep in mind the guys making these pod casts are looking for something to talk a out and will say whatever it takes to get you to listen and give them better ratings.

lf it is a good shot, ie in your home against an arms intruder it doesn't matter if you use a baseball bag, 870 or a machine gun. Your lawyer will and a good judge will instruct the jury to look at wether you were truly at risk and if deadly force was necessary. A prosecutor will try to paint you as a crazy gun guy no matter what you do, they will say a 870 is excessive, he'll if you use a BB gun they will say it was excessive but it won't matter and a good judge, defense attorney and a jury will ignore the type of weapon and focus on the actual situation.

With that being said if you are In a very liberal state or city you will have troubles also if you use was excessive deadly force, such as continuing to shooting him after he is down, or has left the house and you shoot at him while he runs down he street thats different. Most ppl are smart enough to realize a SBR at 10" is no more deadly than a 16" barrel and can easily be convinced that a suppressor makes perfect sense for home defense. A MG will be a bit tougher for some juries to accept but as log as you don't empty a 30rd mag into the criminals chest, reload and keep shooting you're fine. A quick Burst, the guy drops to the group you stop shooting simple, no need to over think it or scone guess your self. I personally am going to use the best weapons at my disposal and deal with the legal ramifications when I comes.

Exactly my feelings.

Dave N

Unfortunately a lot of folks think anything posted on the web will not be used against them. Hell, they dump an employee for some 1/2 assed FB pic of them pissing in public.

Exactly. If you're on an internet gun forum, especially with any regularity, talking about HD/SD is worse than the gun you use.

Basically this is my opinion

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^^^ This.

 

Shouldn't dissuade anyone from talking about it.  People talk about what kind of seat belts they have in their race car in case of a crash, guns are the same type of tool in case of a break in... protective.

I don't disagree. But you and I are not ever going to be the type of person selected for a jury involving a self defense shooting.

A good shoot is a good shoot.

I'll use whatever is the most effective at protecting myself and my loved ones.

I feel like I should comment on this given my experience with a shooting. (Read the thread in GD if you haven't.)

A GOOD Sheriffs department or PD will not care what you use, as long as the shooting was justified.

The only time I was questioned in any way, shape, or form, regarding the weapon used in my situation, was when I originally went to the Sheriffs Department after the event. The Chief of Detectives asked me about the weapon. I gave him everything. Make, model, type of ammo used (Including weight of the round.), how many rounds I had fired, how many rounds were still in the gun, reconfirmed max capacity of the weapon, etc...

After that, not a word was said until I had to get it back. A gun is a gun, and as long as the shooting is justified, you shouldn't* have a problem.

*Everybody might have a different experience depending on location and quality of the department dealing with the case.