Is having a photo of your Form 1/Form 4 considered adequate proof of legal ownership if you get questioned by the po-po?

I'd do a notarized copy.

I keep a digital photo on my smartphone and a b&w copy in an envelope in my glove boxes.
Honestly, if the cop is asking for either one, he should know better.

I keep a folded up, double-sided photocopy in the grip of my AR. My MP5's is taped inside the hollow grip, since there's no door on the bottom.

Most po po (like 98%) will have no idea what they're even supposed to look like. Any copy you can produce should be sufficient. If they don't buy that, they can call NFA branch and verify it themselves. Don't act like you're cool with them wasting your time though. (Unless you want to waste time, of course. 99% of po po will talk guns for hours, even if they don't know much about them).

Totally unnecessary.

 

No requirement to have the form with you or show it to anyone.

However may speed things up with an uninformed LEO


I've had dumbasses at the range actually tell me my suppressors are illegal

Some states do specifically require you to carry Paper work, Oregon for example.

I have friends that still insist that I need to have my stamps with me and freak out when we go shooting.

My understanding is the only thing you ever NEED is to be able to prove the item is in your possession if inquired about.

do you understand the concept of notary?
all they are saying is the person signing, is the person signing.

99% of the time the dont even read whatever they are notarizing.
YMMV, but thats been my experience.

...and there's no reason at all for them to do so.  Notaries aren't generally able to make certified copies (since they didn't create the document in question, they have no way of knowing whether the purported original is actually authentic).  They are able to administer oaths, though, so you could do something like this:


But again, it's totally unnecessary and doesn't make the copy any more authentic or "legal".  I guess it's possible that a particularly ignorant LEO might be impressed by the notary seal, though.

I have a binder full of half-size color copies with an "Authorized Copy" watermark in the bottom of my range bag. I've never had to show them to a LEO. Only time anyone has wanted to see was a range officer at a public indoor range.

I keep a laminated copy of just the sticker.

In all of the public shooting I have done with my suppressors and SBR, I have never been asked to see the stamps.

New eforms stamps are sent by email in pdf form, keep them as pdfs and store them on your phone or in the cloud.

After having been in a situation where I had the wrong (none) forms with me and was asked by LEO for them, I scanned all my forms, and can access them from my phone/ipad.

I think I'll start printing mine off with a watermark that says "Super-Duper Official Copy, Really!"  It'll mean exactly as much (i.e., nothing at all).

I make a B&W copy with COPY written across the form in black ink.

Just keep a copy folder up in the pistol grip of my rifle

Other than the original Form 1/4, none of these copy methods (notarized, watermarked, photo, scans, irradiated, etc.) hold any legal standing.

The problem with all of these copy methods is this: there is NO WAY to prove the copy is that of a legitimate Form 1/4. It is so easy to make a fake Form 1/4 that, once copied (and most likely reduced), would not able to be distinguished from a copy of a legitimate Form 1/4 in the field.

Form 1/4 are available on the BATFE website itself. Copies of the tax stamp are also easily found on the Interwebz. A few minutes with Photoshop (or equivalent) and presto! A fake form 1/4, that once copied would be indistinguishable from a copy of a legitimate Form 1/4.

I think I'll watermark all of mine with this from now on...









 
 
 
 

lol,

 

You're going to say me, standing there with a F 1 or 4 having all the correct info, like the serial number & mfg isn't enough.
Guess the LE's in the ukraine are a bit harsher than those here in the states.
15yrs with NFA items, not one interaction with le's other than shooting with them , or explain how easy it is to buy a NFA item.

The Cloud?? That place where hackers relish stealing info, or your phone that is less secure than the cloud. PAPER COPY. This new fangled Electronics are fine for communication. Personal info, no way.

I tell anyone who asks that they will need a warrant to see any of my tax documents. I've never been asked, though I keep copies in my range bag.

bingo.

I am saying a COPY of a Form 1/4 does not prove anything.

You're right it doesn't, but then you don't have to 100% show full legal proof, any more than you have to have the title of your care with you to show that you own it, or the title to your house to show you can open the door.

Cops are at heart, just burecrats with guns, that most shoot poorly.  Burecurats love paperwork, it's what they do for a living.

If you have a copy of your forms with you, preferably color, and shown them, that's all you're ever going to have to do in 99.9999% of the cases.  The cop would mal fost likely mumble something about "having to call this in", stumble back to their car, pretend they knew what they were doing, then give it back to you and say it checks out, then try to show his dominance by giving your some order or another as to how to avoid trouble in the future.

Myself - orginal in the S deposit box, in case I do ever need to show the actual form, such as some idiot cop seized the item and now I have to (or rather my lawyer) prove that it's a fully legal item.

Then, a two sides, color, laminated (whopping 3 bucks at Kinkos) copy, to take with me to the range, and keep in my car.  Laminated for wear and water protecion, and to keep it from flying around.

In Arizona?  Huh, its the one state where NFA items are almost considered common place.  My local range says you need to have them but not sure they ever asked.  Maybe its a confidence thing, if you act like you aren't suppose to have them, that is when the questions start.

And as far as keeping them in your car, that is the last place I want to keep a copy if I am not in the car.  What if it gets stolen, now I have a great list of toys and address for anyone that has the paperwork.  I do keep a copy of them in an envelope I can grab if needed, but rarely take them.  A set of copies in the range bag are the ones that leave the house most often, but that is my giant range bag I only take for the bigger outings.

Hey, be careful with those "b" words!

 

Never, to date.

No one, other than BATFE has jurisdiction over NFA. I'm sure showing a copy to a local cop might make him/her feel better but you have no obligation to show them your stamp, or a copy of it. Carrying a copy of your stamp is a good way to keep from getting hassled, but legally you don't have to show anyone but BATFE (and arguably the IRS) your stamp.

Your state does.  They are illegal by state law, unless registered in accordance with the NFA.  You can show them what you have (paper), and maybe it will solve the problem, or they can go directly to ATF to get 'proof'.  Either way, the state has jurisdiction.

Correct

Remember all local LE can enforce state law. If they're illegal in the state, you can be charged with possession in said state. It's correct that you're not required to show them your confidential federal tax form (or copy), just as they are not required to choose not to arrest you, for what they have probable cause to believe is a violation of state and/or local law.



Despite what I have seen a few people around here express, I find it highly doubtful a lawful NFA owner could win a lawsuit against the local LE agency after the arrest and subsequent dismissal/acquittal. Both parties would just be out some time (and perhaps money) they could have spent more productively.



It's a give-and-take and (hopefully) mutual respect thing here, guys. LE is made up of people. NFA owners are made up of people. Communication can be key in many practical situations. Do what you want, but there's probably a good reason we haven't heard of this happening.

X2

Your state has jurisdiction if the firearm is not properly stamped. Like I said, if the weapon is NFA, state has no jurisdiction.

 

This is correct. You can be arrested for anything. Convicted is another story.

I keep copies of my NFA forms in my gun cases. They are just standard, two-sided copies that have not been notarized. Never had a problem.

That may be true in AZ, but not everywhere. Here's a synopsis of Texas law:

It is unlawful to possess, manufacture, transport, repair or sell a machine gun, explosive weapon, short-barreled firearm, or silencer.  Federal registration of such an item under the National Firearms Act is a defense to this prohibition.

That's why I keep copies of my NFA stuff when I'm shooting.

Louisiana: http://www.legis.la.gov/legis/Law.aspx?d=97844



Mississippi (See Machine Guns): http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-laws/mississippi.aspx

Actually just browse this whole site...



Most states allow Federal registration as an affirmative defense. That's the whole crazy "guilty until proven innocent" situation...



You are in factual, obvious possession; this is illegal by (state, in this case) statute.

LE seeing what a reasonable and prudent person could generally presume to be a NFA firearm would constitute probable cause for your arrest and the seizure of said firearm (and your whole car if you're in it).



Now, like I said, they don't have to do it. That's called officer discretion.



You don't have to act all high-and-mighty either.



Can't we all just get along?

So having a copy of your form 1 technically wouldn't do shit for you if you were arrested in your state, you would have to use it to defend yourself in court if you were arrested.

 

I think you mistake the purpose.  I am well aware that the watermark has no legal meaning, in the sense of proving that it's a legitimately owned item if a cop stops me on the highway.  I just don't want perfect color copies of any of my legal documents floating around.  There's a similar watermark printed on the declaration of trust I send ATF with every transfer.  I could actually accomplish the same purpose with your smartass version, since it's only there to show that the document being handled is not an original.

I've been asked to show paperwork once by LEO. (Several instances of RO Nazis asking/demanding, but I'm not counting that) I took a registered lower to a local gun show to pick up a 10.5" 9mm upper for it. Since I had things to do, I went, bought the upper, connected it to the lower there at the show, walk it back to my car, and lock the action open and put it on the passenger floorboard per Ohio law on my way to show it to a friend. About 2 miles away from the show, I get pulled over by a police officer. We exchange pleasantries and he says "I see you have your rifle with you, can you step out of the car." So, I comply, and get frisked. Then comes the questions: "Where are you going? Where are you coming from? What do you do for a living?" and "Do you need a license or something for these weapons?" The officer asks me to stand by his car, so I go lean against the hood. I ask what this is about and he replies that "A 'detective' has some questions for me." About a minute later, another squad car pulls up as well as an unmarked car. The "detective" comes walking past me, not even glancing my way, and right to my car where the rifle still is. I ask him if there's a problem and he coldly replies "Someone saw you walking around the gun show with an SBR" and "Do you have your paperwork?" I simply reply that it's in the pistol grip. He inspects it, checking the serial number, comments "I see you've got it properly engraved" and that I had it registered through a trust. That ended up being the end of it. The detective just left and the officer that pulled me over said that he originally pulled me over for not using my signal as I left the show, but he wasn't going to ticket me for it. I then went on my way.

Now, I say "detective" because after talking to a dealer friend at the show, from what I described the guy, he said that that's what the undercover ATF agents usually wear, but since I didn't ask for his credentials and he didn't volunteer, I guess we'll never know.

Long and short of it is: While a photocopy/photograph of the original document isn't enough to prove the item is legally registered in court, it may be just enough to prevent being arrested the one time you need it, so it's better than nothing.

Has anyone ever had their NFA items seized due to not providing/showing their Form 1/4?

regarding photocopies in a glove box; i seriously doubt any car thief has a clue what a atf form is nor would they have the brain power to figure out what they are looking at.

as for local LE, in the 30 years i've lived in AZ i have not had one local cop as for paper work, even when i was shooting my FA mini uzi and the local sheriff pulled in to shoo us away because some other idiots where trying to light pipe bombs and someone else at the shooting pit called the po-po on them.

although i knew a guy that claims he was pulled over my AZ highway patrol and the woman freaked out when she saw his suppressed hand gun and thought it was illegal. he was a dumbass for driving with it on the passenger seat though.

with all that, i carry photo copies in my range bag and in my glove box.